Zero Punctuation: Demon's Souls

[zondervan]

Well I have to say I have mixed opinions here.

To be honest I think the amount of time he put into the game was enough to form an opinion, even if it's one we do not like. We're talking what was probably at least a couple of hours. To be fair few people are liable to expose themselves to that much time and figure "I am going to do more of this activity I do not find enjoyable, for no reason other than to see if it gets better". We watch The Escapist to hear Yahtzee's opinion and the rather scathing way in which he expresses it.

To be fair, Yahtzee never struck me as someone who was really into "very hard games" despite a lot of his bravedo at times. Demon's Souls is not only a very hard game, but a very complicated game when you get down to it as well. A lot of the situations involved in the game being akin to puzzles rather than an RPG or even an action game. Demon's Souls get easier once you learn, and remember the various gimmicks (at least as far as I've gotten).

When it comes to the dodging Mechanics and such, well I can see what his problem was. The dodge/evade backstep is not useful except in very specific situations, and has to be timed perfectly (as do parries). The "block with shield" button is more your general purpose defense for the beginning of the game, and probably closer to what he was hoping the evade would do. What's more even so you tend to do most of your dodging by rolling, I can't think of many situations where I have relied on a quick backstep as a defense unless an enemy was going into a "Stop and blade frenzy" attack.

Yahtzee has never really been an RPG guy and honestly I can see why he'd find this annoying and not inspiring him to put in the time to master the game.

Heck, you can tell how much time he put into things if he seems to think that coming back to life was intended to be a big "payoff". Most people wind up suiciding at The Nexus to avoid changing their world tendency. He also probably missed the Cling Ring which gives you 3/4 your health as opposed to 50%. Of course in that game it's probably healthier to tend to think of being alive as giving a health boost, rather than it actually reducing your health bar.

You make some fair points, and your level headed tone rings true.

 

[boholikeu]

Yahtzee has never really been an RPG guy and honestly I can see why he'd find this annoying and not inspiring him to put in the time to master the game.

Yup. This pretty much explains everything.

Yahtzee basically only gives balanced reviews of action games (FPS, survival horror, etc). If he's reviewing something from any other genre you can pretty much expect him to hate it for some absurd reason that fans of that genre would never care about. In fact, aside from his good taste in action games, Yahtzee's opinions are more or less the same as what you'd find on some Halo fanboy message board (albeit with more wit and better writing).

 

[sanzo]

This week's extra punctuation should be enjoyable

Oh, and anyone else besides me think this might end up causing another "mailbag showdown" like with the SSBB review?

 

[Helba1984]

I had almost exactly the same experience as Yahtzee when I played the game, although I don't want to destroy the disk. My only real gripe with the game is the checkpoint system. If it didn't require me to start from the beginning of the level I might still be playing it. Rather than Pokemon:Mystery Dungeon.
Also, am I the only one who thinks that Yahtzees's depiction of his avatar looks like the orderly from Psychonauts?

It doesn't. there are shortcuts you can open up in the levels that function like checkpoints.

I'm appalled that YZ didn't even find them - it just proves he tried to run straight through the game and expected to live.

 

[Helba1984]

This week's extra punctuation should be enjoyable

Oh, and anyone else besides me think this might end up causing another "mailbag showdown" like with the SSBB review?

God I hope so, because I've already defeated his "review" point-by-point.

 

[Helba1984]

Well I have to say I have mixed opinions here.

To be honest I think the amount of time he put into the game was enough to form an opinion, even if it's one we do not like. We're talking what was probably at least a couple of hours. To be fair few people are liable to expose themselves to that much time and figure "I am going to do more of this activity I do not find enjoyable, for no reason other than to see if it gets better". We watch The Escapist to hear Yahtzee's opinion and the rather scathing way in which he expresses it.

To be fair, Yahtzee never struck me as someone who was really into "very hard games" despite a lot of his bravedo at times. Demon's Souls is not only a very hard game, but a very complicated game when you get down to it as well. A lot of the situations involved in the game being akin to puzzles rather than an RPG or even an action game. Demon's Souls get easier once you learn, and remember the various gimmicks (at least as far as I've gotten).

When it comes to the dodging Mechanics and such, well I can see what his problem was. The dodge/evade backstep is not useful except in very specific situations, and has to be timed perfectly (as do parries). The "block with shield" button is more your general purpose defense for the beginning of the game, and probably closer to what he was hoping the evade would do. What's more even so you tend to do most of your dodging by rolling, I can't think of many situations where I have relied on a quick backstep as a defense unless an enemy was going into a "Stop and blade frenzy" attack.

Yahtzee has never really been an RPG guy and honestly I can see why he'd find this annoying and not inspiring him to put in the time to master the game.

Heck, you can tell how much time he put into things if he seems to think that coming back to life was intended to be a big "payoff". Most people wind up suiciding at The Nexus to avoid changing their world tendency. He also probably missed the Cling Ring which gives you 3/4 your health as opposed to 50%. Of course in that game it's probably healthier to tend to think of being alive as giving a health boost, rather than it actually reducing your health bar.

You make some fair points, and your level headed tone rings true.

He missed the Thief's Ring too, which makes it harder for baddies to notice you and less likely to gangrape you.

And the dogs are easy, all you have to do is draw them out one by one and use turpentine.

 

[Helba1984]

oh yeah and totally disagree with unfair... when a Giant troll goblin thing runs across a bridge and hits you once, breaking your guard and killing you at full health... life beginings to feel a little unfair. That and bosses who kill you as you walk into the room

Maybe you should have seen the GIANT GOBLIN THAT IS CLEARLY QUITE POWERFUL and tried to get around him some other way. It can be done, and even if you can't find a way, maybe you just need to level or get a better weapon. You know, because this is an RPG and that's what you do in these games.

Yeah unfortunately Demon Souls is a game where you only figure things out via trial and error.

Wow, so you mean that the Wiki is noexistant? And what, don't you figure everything out by trial and error? Do you have some godly cheat sheet for every game you play so you only have to play it once? How do you even play games at all? Every game requires effort and trial and error. This game just punishes you for being a Rambo wannabe and not using your noodle (the one in your brain).

Level grinding to me is an absolute waste of time... I bought a game to play it, not to boringly replay the same levels to become powerful enough to tackle the next. To me thats lazy game design.

Wow. You should avoid every RPG ever made, because that genre isn't for you. Also never ever play D&D, and don't bother trying to play FF or DQ at all. Also avoid Oblivion and Morrowind, avoid KOTOR, avoid pretty much anything out of Bioware or Japan in general.

Go play Halo and stop complaining.

although that is somewhat tainted by a game play thats base on a system that dictates that you need to be a certain level to continue.

And you cant criticize me for knocking the game... I've actually played it got about halfway.. then went "Fuck this" this has become work it isnt fun to grind the same areas over and over and then I traded it in

Wow, here I was thinking you understood that progressing and becoming more powerful in a game is sort of part of the game getting more difficult. You probably can't handle an FPS either, because you have to have guns "of a certain level" of power and have learned "by trial and error"that standing in front of an alien with your thumb up your ass will get you killed.

Better stick to Madden, BroGamer. http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=287


Edit: I apologize if this seemed biting, but I used the appropriate level of cynicism to prove the point that all of your assertions are pure fallacy. So please consider the sarcasm and cynical remarks aimed at your points and not you.

 

[boholikeu]

Level grinding to me is an absolute waste of time... I bought a game to play it, not to boringly replay the same levels to become powerful enough to tackle the next. To me thats lazy game design.

Wow. You should avoid every RPG ever made, because that genre isn't for you. Also never ever play D&D, and don't bother trying to play FF or DQ at all. Also avoid Oblivion and Morrowind, avoid KOTOR, avoid pretty much anything out of Bioware or Japan in general.

Go play Halo and stop complaining.

Level grinding is a waste of time and bad design because it usually serves no purpose other than to artificially lengthen the game. If you already beat a dungeon there is no reason why you shouldn't be powerful enough to take on the next. Thankfully most RPGs nowadays (even Bioware games) don't require grinding anymore.

Also, quadruple post??? Next time just use the edit button please.

 

[Helba1984]

Level grinding to me is an absolute waste of time... I bought a game to play it, not to boringly replay the same levels to become powerful enough to tackle the next. To me thats lazy game design.

Wow. You should avoid every RPG ever made, because that genre isn't for you. Also never ever play D&D, and don't bother trying to play FF or DQ at all. Also avoid Oblivion and Morrowind, avoid KOTOR, avoid pretty much anything out of Bioware or Japan in general.

Go play Halo and stop complaining.

Level grinding is a waste of time and bad design because it usually serves no purpose other than to artificially lengthen the game. If you already beat a dungeon there is no reason why you shouldn't be powerful enough to take on the next. Thankfully most RPGs nowadays (even Bioware games) don't require grinding anymore.

Also, quadruple post??? Next time just use the edit button please.

No, it's not bad design, it's just a different kind of game.

Real RPGs have been diluted by the Action genre for quite a few years now, and I'm old enough to have seen that entire trend play out. You're one of the noveau-rpgers who think an RPG means a shooter with a sword instead of menus and stats.

That, friend, is an ACTION-RPG, and the games I mentioned are PURE RPG.

When you bash JRPGs, and when the western development world in general does, you sound just like this:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/9/6/

Also, not quadruple post, separate replies to separate points.

It's called debate.

Edit:

I am also a professional who happens to work in the industry, and I know precisely the motivating factors behind these trends I speak of; I am well versed and well educated in this subject matter in particular. Games are being artificially made easier and shortened to widen the audience and make more money, and much is lost in translation. There is little one man can do to stop it, even from the inside - but people like you lapping up the piss they squirt out and calling it mannah from heaven aren't helping the case.

If you want to keep that kind of game, that genre, I suppose you're entitled to continue playing and buying those kinds of games; but the type of gamer that existed 20 years ago from the first ff and dq and M&M is still there, and these companies are still making the games we love.

Just have the decency to stop calling a diluted shadow of something formerly great the same as its ancestor and I have no quarrel with you. there are fundamental design choices that are made differently now due to decisions specifically made to make games last less time and move in the direction of becoming like movies.

The chief result of this is many games that are action-rpgs lumped in with actual RPGs, and they skew the demographics which makes actual rpgs appear less popular; the truth is they are as popular as ever, but their bastard grandchildren are being lumped in and as they are designed from the ground up for higher market penetration, they create the illusion that real RPGs are failures by comparison.

the sooner people realize and make this distinction, the sooner people will stop hating on either western or eastern games and we'll all have what we want.

 

[aruseusx]

666 comments, nice. Gonna pass on this though.

 

[Bolly]

It was a neat episode IMHO, but that's not why I made an account and I am making my first post in this thread.

By sheer coincidence, look at how many replies this thread had when I noticed it. BTW I was watching some old ZP episodes when I noticed this.

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/199/demonsouls666.jpg

EDIT: Also, I have been ninja'd by aruseusx on this one.

 

[iron fist150]

no shit the game is hard, its made by Atlus, anyone thats ever played any of the Persona games or Devil Survivor will know what im talking about

It's published by Atlus America. It's made by From Software with help and money from Sony. It's a Sony Second Party Title.

Atlus America doesn't make games. They cherry pick and localize the best niche games from Japan to release here and they are a subsidiary by Atlus Japan so they get dibbs on those.

true, however my point still stands, have you ever played an easy Atlus game?

 

[Helba1984]

no shit the game is hard, its made by Atlus, anyone thats ever played any of the Persona games or Devil Survivor will know what im talking about

It's published by Atlus America. It's made by From Software with help and money from Sony. It's a Sony Second Party Title.

Atlus America doesn't make games. They cherry pick and localize the best niche games from Japan to release here and they are a subsidiary by Atlus Japan so they get dibbs on those.

true, however my point still stands, have you ever played an easy Atlus game?

Steambot Chronicles was pretty easy

 

[oneshotfinchy]

No, it's not bad design, it's just a different kind of game.

Real RPGs have been diluted by the Action genre for quite a few years now, and I'm old enough to have seen that entire trend play out. You're one of the noveau-rpgers who think an RPG means a shooter with a sword instead of menus and stats.

That, friend, is an ACTION-RPG, and the games I mentioned are PURE RPG.

When you bash JRPGs, and when the western development world in general does, you sound just like this:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/9/6/

Also, not quadruple post, separate replies to separate points.

It's called debate.

Edit:

I am also a professional who happens to work in the industry, and I know precisely the motivating factors behind these trends I speak of; I am well versed and well educated in this subject matter in particular. Games are being artificially made easier and shortened to widen the audience and make more money, and much is lost in translation. There is little one man can do to stop it, even from the inside - but people like you lapping up the piss they squirt out and calling it mannah from heaven aren't helping the case.

If you want to keep that kind of game, that genre, I suppose you're entitled to continue playing and buying those kinds of games; but the type of gamer that existed 20 years ago from the first ff and dq and M&M is still there, and these companies are still making the games we love.

Just have the decency to stop calling a diluted shadow of something formerly great the same as its ancestor and I have no quarrel with you. there are fundamental design choices that are made differently now due to decisions specifically made to make games last less time and move in the direction of becoming like movies.

The chief result of this is many games that are action-rpgs lumped in with actual RPGs, and they skew the demographics which makes actual rpgs appear less popular; the truth is they are as popular as ever, but their bastard grandchildren are being lumped in and as they are designed from the ground up for higher market penetration, they create the illusion that real RPGs are failures by comparison.

the sooner people realize and make this distinction, the sooner people will stop hating on either western or eastern games and we'll all have what we want.

Mother of god, how can you expect your "debate" to be taken seriously when you avoid the direct issue that level grinding is a tired and old design choice rather than telling the other side to go back to Halo and that he doesn't understand your precious genre?
I'll set the disclaimer here that the only RPGs I've really played are pokemon and the Mario and Luigi series, which are more or less action rpgs, and they are far far better in my opinion because they don't force you to stop and do the same thing for an hour or so before you move on to the next part of the game. It only unfairly lengthens the game, it doesn't add anything to the story, gameplay, etc.

 

[Helba1984]

No, it's not bad design, it's just a different kind of game.

Real RPGs have been diluted by the Action genre for quite a few years now, and I'm old enough to have seen that entire trend play out. You're one of the noveau-rpgers who think an RPG means a shooter with a sword instead of menus and stats.

That, friend, is an ACTION-RPG, and the games I mentioned are PURE RPG.

When you bash JRPGs, and when the western development world in general does, you sound just like this:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/9/6/

Also, not quadruple post, separate replies to separate points.

It's called debate.

Edit:

I am also a professional who happens to work in the industry, and I know precisely the motivating factors behind these trends I speak of; I am well versed and well educated in this subject matter in particular. Games are being artificially made easier and shortened to widen the audience and make more money, and much is lost in translation. There is little one man can do to stop it, even from the inside - but people like you lapping up the piss they squirt out and calling it mannah from heaven aren't helping the case.

If you want to keep that kind of game, that genre, I suppose you're entitled to continue playing and buying those kinds of games; but the type of gamer that existed 20 years ago from the first ff and dq and M&M is still there, and these companies are still making the games we love.

Just have the decency to stop calling a diluted shadow of something formerly great the same as its ancestor and I have no quarrel with you. there are fundamental design choices that are made differently now due to decisions specifically made to make games last less time and move in the direction of becoming like movies.

The chief result of this is many games that are action-rpgs lumped in with actual RPGs, and they skew the demographics which makes actual rpgs appear less popular; the truth is they are as popular as ever, but their bastard grandchildren are being lumped in and as they are designed from the ground up for higher market penetration, they create the illusion that real RPGs are failures by comparison.

the sooner people realize and make this distinction, the sooner people will stop hating on either western or eastern games and we'll all have what we want.

Mother of god, how can you expect your "debate" to be taken seriously when you avoid the direct issue that level grinding is a tired and old design choice rather than telling the other side to go back to Halo and that he doesn't understand your precious genre?
I'll set the disclaimer here that the only RPGs I've really played are pokemon and the Mario and Luigi series, which are more or less action rpgs, and they are far far better in my opinion because they don't force you to stop and do the same thing for an hour or so before you move on to the next part of the game. It only unfairly lengthens the game, it doesn't add anything to the story, gameplay, etc.

And I explained that this is your opinion, correctly identified when you started playing and the likely types of "Rpg" you started with, and forgot to mention that the idea of leveling being a "Bad" design choice is merely your opinion as someone who plays a sub-genre of RPG and misinterprets it for its grandfather.

 

[boholikeu]

No, it's not bad design, it's just a different kind of game.

Real RPGs have been diluted by the Action genre for quite a few years now, and I'm old enough to have seen that entire trend play out. You're one of the noveau-rpgers who think an RPG means a shooter with a sword instead of menus and stats.

That, friend, is an ACTION-RPG, and the games I mentioned are PURE RPG.

When you bash JRPGs, and when the western development world in general does, you sound just like this:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/9/6/

Also, not quadruple post, separate replies to separate points.

It's called debate.

Edit:

I am also a professional who happens to work in the industry, and I know precisely the motivating factors behind these trends I speak of; I am well versed and well educated in this subject matter in particular. Games are being artificially made easier and shortened to widen the audience and make more money, and much is lost in translation. There is little one man can do to stop it, even from the inside - but people like you lapping up the piss they squirt out and calling it mannah from heaven aren't helping the case.

If you want to keep that kind of game, that genre, I suppose you're entitled to continue playing and buying those kinds of games; but the type of gamer that existed 20 years ago from the first ff and dq and M&M is still there, and these companies are still making the games we love.

Just have the decency to stop calling a diluted shadow of something formerly great the same as its ancestor and I have no quarrel with you. there are fundamental design choices that are made differently now due to decisions specifically made to make games last less time and move in the direction of becoming like movies.

The chief result of this is many games that are action-rpgs lumped in with actual RPGs, and they skew the demographics which makes actual rpgs appear less popular; the truth is they are as popular as ever, but their bastard grandchildren are being lumped in and as they are designed from the ground up for higher market penetration, they create the illusion that real RPGs are failures by comparison.

the sooner people realize and make this distinction, the sooner people will stop hating on either western or eastern games and we'll all have what we want.

Woah, you make a lot of wild assumptions about the games I like, but ignoring all that let's look at couple of the points you made:

I don't know why you would say that level grinding is a staple of turn-based RPGs. While it is certainly is more common in those than in action RPGs that doesn't mean that it's a part of the genre (or a good mechanic, for that matter). Really, I don't understand why you're trying to defend it, so maybe you could clue me in on what exactly grinding adds to gameplay?

Also, I have nothing against JRPGs as a genre, though I do wish they'd learn a few storytelling techniques from Western RPGs (or other genres for that matter) and also cut down on the random battles/level grinding (which they have been doing the last few years).

Since you mentioned you work in the industry I'm kind of curious what you do, but hey I guess that might be asking for a bit too much. You're definitely right that games are getting easier and are being made for mass appeal, but then you don't exactly need to be an insider to see that. Personally, I think it's a good thing because it means the medium as a whole is expanding, and it also makes developers think twice about certain "time-honored" yet ultimately faulty mechanics such as level grinding.

Anyway that's enough for now. I need to get back to my mindless RPG-shooter.

Edit:

And I explained that this is your opinion, correctly identified when you started playing and the likely types of "Rpg" you started with, and forgot to mention that the idea of leveling being a "Bad" design choice is merely your opinion as someone who plays a sub-genre of RPG and misinterprets it for its grandfather.

Er wait, we don't have a problem with leveling in RPGs, only level grinding. There's a big difference between the two.

 

[TiTH3R]

Quality Yahtzee.

 

[yzzlthtz]

I was looking foward to trying this out to =[
Hard I don't mind... but near-impossible is
another thing altogether.

*sniff* I need my RPG fix.

Don't let this review turn you off, this game is fantastic, and not very hard.
And hard in the way that you can actually overcome. People beat the game at level 1 (without advancing a level, but with item upgrades) just to challenge their skills.
I've been playing Dragon Age : Origins on hard. I hate it. If there's a fight that's too hard, it's just too hard. If your characters aren't advanced enough, they're not advanced enough. You can maybe get by with enough potions, but it's a numbers game, not a game game. And all those treasure chests I can't open because no one has lockpicking or whatever?
Fucking stupid.
Demon's Souls you can actually learn from and get better.

 

[Rorschach II]

No need to knock Sussex...

Lol Sussex is awesome. XD

I find it quite funny how we got mentioned. Now all of the Escapist knows that its a shithole :L

 

[Benny-K]

I've been watching these videos for awhile, and I usually laugh so much because I can relate to the same "experiences". This time however it feels as though he never played the game and watched a few videos off youtube. Saying the only online interaction is through a messaging system is a lie. There is 4-player co-op, PvP, and even allowing the player to become a boss for PvP. If you're going to explain(cannot really say review) a game, at least play it for more than a few minutes. Maybe he should just stick to point-and-click adventures.