Zero Punctuation: Dragon Age II

[gbemery]

Why didn't he have the dead imps explode?

 

[Kaanyr Vhok]

I preferred the days when rogues were...rogues - rather than dexterity-based fighters. Baldurs Gate series, Planescape: Torment - heck, even FO1-2 with a stealth build. You had your 'nimble melee' characters as well, because you had multiple builds for different classes, and so you could make a dagger-based dual-wielding fighter with high dexterity instead of high strength. But rogues were always stealth-based characters, with some form of invis/hidden skill, backstabs, trap-finding, lock-picking etc. They were great fun in BG2 for mage-killing, stealthing them to scout ahead of your party and act as a spotter for your mages to open up with a fireball before the enemy could close the gap (friendly fire + ability to scout up ahead of the group without everyone automatically walking their unstealthed asses up behind you + AoE spells = great use for scouting/stealth characters) and opening the combat with a 5x damage backstab to kill the enemy group's mage before they can react. Felt a LOT more 'rogue' than being another fighter with different animations - I blame MMOs for killing the class.

I'm with you. I like those combo rogues too.

 

[Kaanyr Vhok]

From what I've heard, the game feels quite rushed and unpolished but it's still a good game. Not just amazing like the previous one.

According to reports from Bioware, we can blame EA. Bioware's dev team had a good few months to go to finish the game, in both polish as well as story, and EA told them to rush it right out the door before the final tweaks could be made.

So while Bioware wanted to aim for the First category you outlined, Yahtzee, their publisher suck "Fuck that shit" to that goal and had them toss it into the second category.

DA:O was not amazing. It was Bioware's worst game unless you were playing NWN's offline.

 

[Loki the Fool]

Great Review! Keep em coming! Though I have to say my favorite is STILL Epic Mickey (cough) DISNEY Epic Mickey LOL!!!! Sea of Grins x_x <--Died laughing

 

[Arcticflame]

From what I've heard, the game feels quite rushed and unpolished but it's still a good game. Not just amazing like the previous one.

According to reports from Bioware, we can blame EA. Bioware's dev team had a good few months to go to finish the game, in both polish as well as story, and EA told them to rush it right out the door before the final tweaks could be made.

So while Bioware wanted to aim for the First category you outlined, Yahtzee, their publisher suck "Fuck that shit" to that goal and had them toss it into the second category.

DA:O was not amazing. It was Bioware's worst game unless you were playing NWN's offline.

Imho, that was jade empire - And I liked that game.

Dragon age 2 is certainly weaker than dragon age origins, I still enjoy it a lot, but if I'm honest it really wasn't as good, and the problem really was just the environments were boring, and the story not very interesting.

I also don't think the whole "only able to talk to people in camp" thing works as well for dragon age. I prefer being able to hold a conversation whenever.

 

[harvz]

he should put a big ass sign at the beginning "YAHTZEE PLAYED DRAGON AGE II ON A CONSOLE".

despite bioware attempting to tailor the control scheme to the console controls, it works much better with keyboard/mouse. also the graphics have been really downgraded on consoles. so those 2 arguments are OUT.

otherwise, i kinda agree with the rest, dungeons are repeated so many times and even when you think its a new dungeon, its just the previous one, in reverse. the story isnt to bad but very restrictive. though the characters tend to be pretty good and fairly well thought out.

That repetition just kills it for me right there, didn't even need the combat or the bugs. No, not ever, no excuse, not for a full price game.

particularly if you live in australia...which i know i do. i can kinda put up with the same dungeon over and over but then again, i enjoy really old games and repetitive dungeons were a big thing on cartridge.

i wouldn't be surprised if they end up releasing an update for it or perhaps someone will mod it but that wont win points for it.

 

[Tontomanzz]

I preferred the days when rogues were...rogues - rather than dexterity-based fighters. Baldurs Gate series, Planescape: Torment - heck, even FO1-2 with a stealth build. You had your 'nimble melee' characters as well, because you had multiple builds for different classes, and so you could make a dagger-based dual-wielding fighter with high dexterity instead of high strength. But rogues were always stealth-based characters, with some form of invis/hidden skill, backstabs, trap-finding, lock-picking etc. They were great fun in BG2 for mage-killing, stealthing them to scout ahead of your party and act as a spotter for your mages to open up with a fireball before the enemy could close the gap (friendly fire + ability to scout up ahead of the group without everyone automatically walking their unstealthed asses up behind you + AoE spells = great use for scouting/stealth characters) and opening the combat with a 5x damage backstab to kill the enemy group's mage before they can react. Felt a LOT more 'rogue' than being another fighter with different animations - I blame MMOs for killing the class.

I'm with you. I like those combo rogues too.

Don't forget the days of the archer specialist and the arrows of choice to take out those enemy mages. Had to be careful with AOE (if you had friendly fire on) but man it made for some fun arrow work. At the higher levels was manditory to keep those mages busy so they couldn't load up the big time spells. Once all the shields were up, was a lot more work.

 

[etocadet]

It was wierd that Mass Effect 1/2 didn't have a homosexual relationship option, I'm not gay but i did find it weird that you could actually have sex with aliens.

 

[rsvp42]

I think the problem is that it never FELT epic or monumental.
You just had another fight with a big guy in a grey boxy room. And then its just kind of over.

And once you are Champion? Doesnt matter. No "Power" like the trailer suggests. No influence on plot, your choices are just as meaningless.
People just call you "Champion" instead of "Hawke". Which kind of makes forcing you into being a Human even less beneficial.

While I can understand your experience I can't say mine was the same. It's clearly been a pretty divisive game, so it has failed insofar as providing a universally enjoyable experience (at least when compared to Origins). I personally like most of the changes and don't lament any features that were lost in translation, but this is just a case where my opinion doesn't agree with a lot of others.

As for the race selection, I don't see it as being "forced" since it was done for story reasons. That being a said, the same game with more VO to support a wider variety in character creation would be cool, but to do that right, you need a lot more VO. I remember Yahtzee's review of DA:O and he pointed out how pointless the origins and race selection felt since they all merge into essentially the same story, with a few lines spattered here and there ("you're an elf!") to support it. I much prefer a game that fully supports its one race really well and ties dialogue and story points into that than one that throws a few token options in and barely mentions them. Personally, I liked the way DA:O handled it, but they weren't grappling with player character VO, so they had a little more freedom in that sense.

The problem with always thinking that more options is better is that it almost doesn't allow studios to tell smaller stories anymore. I love an epic tale as much as the next guy, but a well-crafted story with a smaller scope can be really cool too. I don't need to have unlimited options in an RPG to enjoy the world and the story, so I'd hate for BioWare to think they can never tell that kind of story. Will we as players always accuse any such story choice as laziness?

 

[the_green_dragon]

Wow, that basically covers how I feel about DA2. Good job!!

 

[Murmillos]

As much as I hate the button massing combat.
As much as I hate the reused maps, caves, mansions
As much as I hate that the plot is nothing but a holding pattern of random useless reasons for doing shit.
I love this game so much because no matter whom you have in your party, your characters are always having fun with each other. The bickering, the teasing, the baiting the clueless, the airing of hostilities for another - this game screams character - while some of it may be cheesy, cliche', over-the-top, stupid, mindless and maybe even pointless, at least they are alive - making this game still very enjoyable for the social aspect of it.

It's even given me and a co-worker great source material to throw into our office banter between each other and "troll" other co-workers because they have no idea what they are listening into.


That alone is why I'm a million times more invested into DA2 then I was toward ME2. Everybody felt so stiff and lifeless with only "key" view points to get anything out of your squad-mates.

 

[the_green_dragon]

[quote="Kaanyr Vhok" post="6.274071.10605146

I also don't think the whole "only able to talk to people in camp" thing works as well for dragon age. I prefer being able to hold a conversation whenever.

You had to go to the companion's house to be able to really chat with them, that actually annoyed me even more then the camp thing, at least at camp they were all in one place rather then making me hike halfway across town and back (thru 3 or 4 loading screens)

 

[Danpascooch]

personally I kind of liked how you didnt have some huge world ending plot and it was more about your life.... altho they certainly could have done a better job at that and the endless baddies did get old, I mean you would think at least the dogs would have some self preservation instinct

It really did get ridiculous after a while, I would be walking around hightown with OTHER PEDESTRIANS strolling peacefully, suddenly I'm attacked and they don't even run, just continue walking quietly by while arrows and fireballs made of demon-magic-killthefuckoutofyou fly over their heads.

I was not a fan of this game, it's fine if you want to tell the story of his life and not of a world threatening event, but then don't split it so clearly into 3 sections with three big conflicts as if you're using some sort of story-stencil.

 

[Danpascooch]

Dragon Age 2 is definitely a game that requires certain expectations and a certain mindset to enjoy. If you go in wanting an epic, overarching plotline, you'll be disappointed. If you play a Hawke who doesn't fit the narrative Bioware's laid out for him, you'll be disappointed. If you want traditional tactical combat, you'll be disappointed. If you happen to stumble into the weakest branches of the branching narrative or have the key scenes of the story fouled by bugs, you'll be disappointed.

Personally, I liked the departure from the epic overarching plot; I enjoyed the story less and less the more epic it became. It was nice as a story about a refugee making his way in the world and rising from abject poverty (though that said, after Act 1 the poverty problem was put to rest and your motivation gets a little hazy.)

And I have to disagree that this is just a shameless cash-in sequel. Obviously there's some of that; game design is still a business. But I have a hard time believing that Bioware doesn't genuinely care about Dragon Age or this whole world they've pieced together. I think the sloppy design comes more from a rushed development cycle than anything else - if they'd had another year to design more environments and iron out bugs, the game would definitely be much better.

So the mindset I need to go in with is: "I didn't need that $60 anyway?"

I find it a bit odd how you say it was not a cash in, but that the sloppy design comes from rushed development

Why do you think they rushed development and cut corners? Because a wizard made them?

 

[Luquent]

I'm tired of games being named after things that are only briefly discussed in the actual game.
Dragon age, Twilight princess, Mass Effect, Scribblenauts, etc.

 

[CreepyStalker]

I didn't like this ZP, most of Yahtzee's stuff makes me laugh, this just made me smile, so it didn't do it for me which is a shame, although mostly its because he said nothing we haven't heard before from every single one of the games haters (the haters were particularly numerous for this game) and threw in about 2 jokes, so once he headed with the "Agree" option you might as well have been reading one of the haters messages and pretending its in a funny accent.

 

[Da_Vane]

Classy, as always...

 

[regalphantom]

Anybody else notice that the submarine at 3:45 is a greyscale version of the Beatle's Yellow Submarine?

 

[Arcticflame]

You had to go to the companion's house to be able to really chat with them, that actually annoyed me even more then the camp thing, at least at camp they were all in one place rather then making me hike halfway across town and back (thru 3 or 4 loading screens)

That's what I meant sorry, I'm talking about dragon age 2, going to Ander's clinic was always a complete chore.

Dragon age origins was better because you could talk to them anywhere, and only some cut-scenes were restricted to camp.

 

[Canadish]

I think the problem is that it never FELT epic or monumental.
You just had another fight with a big guy in a grey boxy room. And then its just kind of over.

And once you are Champion? Doesnt matter. No "Power" like the trailer suggests. No influence on plot, your choices are just as meaningless.
People just call you "Champion" instead of "Hawke". Which kind of makes forcing you into being a Human even less beneficial.

While I can understand your experience I can't say mine was the same. It's clearly been a pretty divisive game, so it has failed insofar as providing a universally enjoyable experience (at least when compared to Origins). I personally like most of the changes and don't lament any features that were lost in translation, but this is just a case where my opinion doesn't agree with a lot of others.

As for the race selection, I don't see it as being "forced" since it was done for story reasons. That being a said, the same game with more VO to support a wider variety in character creation would be cool, but to do that right, you need a lot more VO. I remember Yahtzee's review of DA:O and he pointed out how pointless the origins and race selection felt since they all merge into essentially the same story, with a few lines spattered here and there ("you're an elf!") to support it. I much prefer a game that fully supports its one race really well and ties dialogue and story points into that than one that throws a few token options in and barely mentions them. Personally, I liked the way DA:O handled it, but they weren't grappling with player character VO, so they had a little more freedom in that sense.

The problem with always thinking that more options is better is that it almost doesn't allow studios to tell smaller stories anymore. I love an epic tale as much as the next guy, but a well-crafted story with a smaller scope can be really cool too. I don't need to have unlimited options in an RPG to enjoy the world and the story, so I'd hate for BioWare to think they can never tell that kind of story. Will we as players always accuse any such story choice as laziness?

Whats tragic here, is that I strongly agree with your points. I've felt the same thing, the industry is pushing for nothing but "da most epic story eva!".
What I was worried about with Dragon Age 2, and what DA2 ended up being, was that "a smaller more focused story" translated to "We're adding half the content", rather then being a more focused and deeper, personal story.

I understand that how much someone connects to and enjoys a plot is subjective, but I really didnt feel "Hawke's Rise to Power" was more focused. It was not deeper. It was a little more personal near the start, but you cant avoid what happens to Hawke's family, and so the connection is broken. Those "tragic" moments didnt feel tragic like in Origins dark moments, because in Origins I knew I could have avoided them, I could have done better. DA2 just felt contrived, like a Soap Opera.
Overall, it confirmed my fears that Bioware just cut content (probably EA giving them less time, telling them to just add $10 DLC) and then got Mike Laidlaw to tell everyone it was "more focused". The whole thing felt like marketing spin and that we consumers got taken for a ride.
I think thats why so many are pissed off about this game.

The fact the Origins Lead Designer walked off the project says alot to me.
I hate to mention someone in particular, but Mike Laidlaw (new Lead designer) just struck me as a greasy used car salesman, trying to trick us into a purchase, rather then a passionate games developer who wanted to make something great that would sell on its merits.