Zero Punctuation: Grand Theft Auto 5

RicoADF

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Jun 2, 2009
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Carpenter said:
It's not just "SA on the GTA 4 engine" and I have to wonder if you even played the game with a comment like that. It's the same engine in a sense but it's been changed in some pretty major ways. On top of that, the gameplay is nothing like SA and I don't even know how you came to that conclusion. Because the city is the same? Even that wouldn't be completely accurate, it's not really the same Los Santos portrayed in SA.
Quite quick to tell others what they have and haven't done, I went to the midnight launch in Sydney and yes I do have it on PS3 (Special Edition). To me it feels like San Andreas since it added the whole stamina, more side missions and customisation. Has planes etc and just in general more stuff to do/see. Unlike GTA4 where out of missions there wasn't much to do. Plus as you said it looks and feels like SA.
Yes it's edited but it's still the GTA4 engine, which is good. They put less time into building the engine and more time into making an enjoyable game :)
 

Shuu

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Apr 23, 2013
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Wow, to the children's credit, I got through the whole first page of comments and things remained level headed!
 

DjinnFor

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Nov 20, 2009
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I can't decide whether Yahtzee's misuse of the Gambler's Fallacy is deliberately wrong or unintentionally wrong. Anyone care to help me out?
 

Kingjackl

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Nov 18, 2009
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What's this floor mopping mission people keep bringing up? I've beaten the game and found nothing of the sort. Are people just looking for things to complain about and failing miserably? I mean, the LifeInvader mission and it's pop-up minigame were a definite low point, but the rest of it was exceptional.
 

Arppis

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May 28, 2011
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I have to say, I really liked the game at first. But then the overly scripted missions started to bug me, not to mention stiff aiming (I can still do well with the aim, it's not just comfortable).

Still, the game is fun... when it isn't in "you have to do this my way"-attitude. When you can actualy make decissions and do it your way, it's great. But that's rare treat in missions. Sadly enough.
 

MaddKossack115

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Jul 29, 2013
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As much as I love Yahtzee, I don't think this GTA V review is going to be in his "greatest hits" collection - his main criticism is that the game just has too much stuff in it (which I think is perfectly fine for an open world game, compared to the linear duck-and-shoot galleries that only last FOUR HOURS!!!), and he doesn't acknowledge the improvements the game has made (Better driving! Better shooting! Better mission variety!), without really blasting the weak points.

He only says that the characters aren't interesting without getting into actual examples of their shortcomings in the game, like the inherent hypocrisy of Franklin wanting to leave his criminal life in the hood... to have a criminal life with high-risk heists, solely for a higher reward. Or that Michael's family problems are allegedly solved before the climax of the game, but the player can turn right around and have him get it on with prostitutes he had just turned down during the player's transition to him from the other characters.

And speaking of transitions, I find it criminal that Yahtzee failed to mention how one can allegedly switch between whichever of the three characters in the game they want, but story progression can only happen if a certain character is selected, when it presented an opportunity ripe for different mission paths exclusive to each character (like how Saints Row did it for the three gangs in the first two games). And I also find it criminal how your only criticism of the Heist system is that it "forces linear missions into sandbox games", when the criticism is that, for how much it was hyped up, they have little to do with the actual game: there are only six Heist missions in the whole game, with two stuck with one potential plan to execute (and one technically being so similar in plan it might as well be one plan anyways), and two not allowing you to hire crew members.

Speaking of crew members, I wish there a LOT more opportunities to interact with them outside of the big heists - hang out with them to get a feel for their personalities, take them on training courses to bump up their stats outside of the big heists, hell, possibly call them for backup on some non-heist missions, especially towards the climax of the story.

But in defense of the game, while GTA V probably gets a little tedious, I don't think it's AS tedious as some people are making it out to be: that oft-used example people are making of one of the missions being "mop the floor" is ignoring two facts: 1) that's one of the optional approaches to a heist, so it's technically avoidable, and 2) that's cover for your character so they could PLANT FIREBOMBS IN AN FIB BUILDING, THEN BLOW UP THE FIREBOMBS, THEN HAVE THE CREW CHARGE IN AS FIREFIGHTERS TO GRAB SOMETHING IN THE CHAOS, THEN HAVE A SHOOTOUT IN THE FIRE, THEN RAPPEL DOWN AN ELEVATOR SHAFT DODGING FALLING CONCRETE, ALL OF IT RIPPED OUT OF A DISASTER MOVIE SCENE!!!

Yes that last part was unspoilered partly because it needed to put the whole "mop the floor" part into perspective, and partly because "IT'S FUCKING AWESOME, AND HAD TO BE SAID!!!"

Edit: I also think it's a bad sign for Yahtzee's review when a non-sequiter joke of a soldier getting his leg blown off in WWII, and then calmly writing to his mother before screaming in pain, is the only "joke" that really made me laugh out loud, compared to the relative softballs he tossed at GTA V.
 

Nalikill

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Jul 27, 2013
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DjinnFor said:
I can't decide whether Yahtzee's misuse of the Gambler's Fallacy is deliberately wrong or unintentionally wrong. Anyone care to help me out?
He said it REMINDED him of the gambler's fallacy, not that it was- that putting out three protagonists who were fairly similar hoping that the player would like one was like the gambler's fallacy. A statement of the literal application of it I read once went something like this: A professor carried a bomb onto every plane he went on. Someone noticed one day and asked him why. "Well, it's long odds that one bomb is on a plane. To have two bombs on a plane would be nearly impossible!". So while it's not an exact application, it's similar enough that there's not really a separate word for this concept except perhaps 'throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks'.
 

Tom_green_day

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Jan 5, 2013
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@People complaining about so-called 'fanboys'.
People aren't pissed when reviewers (if the word applies to ZP) complain about a game they like, they complain when the reviewer seems to only do so unfairly, or purposefully for attention or just to attack people who like the game.
 

MCHG

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Jul 2, 2013
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Yahtzee is really devolving into that guy who just hates on popular games just to be different and try to rile fanboys
Up.

I don't understand how he can bash games like The Last of Us or GTAV but praise mediocre games like Bioshock Infinite or even Walking Dead: Survical Instinct, just because they're not as popular or mainstream. Infinite had so many things Yahtzee loves to complain about. Regenerating shields, 2 weapon limit, useless RPG elements, scripted set pieces, ripping off Halo. Yet he loved it unconditionally but goes on to hate on superior games for nonsensical and petty reasons. The protagonists are supposed to be evil jerks. Just like Joel. Why can't Yahtzee comprehend this? He loved Captain Walker in Spec Ops: The Line for making you play as the bad guy without you knowing but then TLOU does it better and more subtly and he doesn't even mention it?

Also, this is GTA. Why are you taking the story and characters so seriously? You complained in your Deadpool review there aren't enough AAA comedy games out right now. Well, here's one. The dialogue is supposed to be over the top and wacky. Or should they be more like Booker DeWitt and just announce every obvious thing that can be said. Would that make you like the characters more? Would you like it if the game had some pretentious message that it obnoxiously shoved it your face for 10 hours?
 

silversnake4133

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Mar 14, 2010
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I find a lot of the fanboys who say they aren't fanboys bitching about how Yahtzee didn't devote his entire existence to play the next installment of "Buy this Brand Name with extra controversy" quite humorous. Remember back when he did his Final Hallway XIII review and how people said that it got good 20 hours in? Yeah, when you're a professional video games critic, long games are the bane of your existence. And this game is no different. So they're going to go on their experiences on the amount of time they allot to it and go from there. Also Yahtzee has a side business that probably doesn't run itself.

At the end of the day GTAV didn't provide enough sustaining entertainment for him and he probably wanted to get it over and done with, especially since the insatiable masses were probably metaphorically clawing down his door wondering when he was going to review mindlessly praise something that is far from perfect. "Oh you get to play life simulator in a video game, then when you get bored with that you can prance your scumbag minions around until your pants get tight."

The bottom line is that regardless of what Yahtzee says, those who like this game are going to like it, and those who do not like it, probably won't change their minds. What I really hate is when people go around shoving this game down everyone's throat because they think it's the next coming of Jesus. And stating that it made x amount of dollars opening day doesn't make it a good game. It just means that a lot of people bought it. And if you need a comparative analogy, consider the following: Twilight and 50 Shades of Gray are best sellers. Twilight made millions in the box office, and now 50 shades is getting a movie. The material is complete tripe, but it still made lots of money, further proving that idiots have money too, and thus will waste it on things that make them think they're cool.
 

Evaheist666

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Jun 4, 2011
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ProfessorLayton said:
I can tell you firsthand that Saints Row 4 is absolute garbage and not even accidentally good. It's not even a matter of opinion. It's glitchy, boring, has absolutely no sense of pacing, most of the content is literally copy-pasted from Saints Row 3, the missions are insultingly easy, and the superpowers simply break the game.
I could say the same thing about GTAV. GTAV is nothing but a cut and paste of GTAIV... only with a bigger map which is full of empty. Saints row 3-4 are fast and furious and fun to play. I've encountered zero bugs in SR3-4 on the PS3 so I don't know what you're talking about.
 

MXRom

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Jan 10, 2013
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MCHG said:
Yahtzee is really devolving into that guy who just hates on popular games just to be different and try to rile fanboys
Up.

I don't understand how he can bash games like The Last of Us or GTAV but praise mediocre games like Bioshock Infinite or even Walking Dead: Survical Instinct, just because they're not as popular or mainstream.
Infinite was popular. In case you didn't notice. He praised Survival Instinct because it took the over used corpse of zombie survival horror and tried to actually add survival elements, kinda like State of Decay. Which is different from most which are less about survival and more a scorekeeper of how many walking corpses you can behead in an hour.

MCHG said:
Infinite had so many things Yahtzee loves to complain about. Regenerating shields, 2 weapon limit, useless RPG elements, scripted set pieces, ripping off Halo. Yet he loved it unconditionally
I don't think calling a game that shoves itself up its own butt is unconditional love.

MCHG said:
He loved Captain Walker in Spec Ops: The Line for making you play as the bad guy without you knowing but then TLOU does it better and more subtly and he doesn't even mention it?
He liked Spec Ops because YOU made the conscious choice to do the evil stuff while Walker tries to justify his actions with ever flimsier reasoning before he finally goes off the deep end. Spec Ops also did this thing where it gave you a choice and you didn't even realize it. Like say firing into a crowd of civilians. It said so in the objectives, but you could just as easily fired into the air to make them disperse but the game never said you could do that. THAT was the sort of thing Yahtzee liked.

Last of Us does not make you a 'bad guy'. It makes you the anti-hero and it becomes very clear very early, with the 'fuck you got mine' attitude that is practically a requirement for an anti-hero character.

Last of Us ends with our two heroes leaving it all behind and living happily ever after, or as close to it in post-apocalyptia. In Spec Ops you either kill yourself in penance for what you did, or you retreat further into your little delusion, covering what you did with poor justifications.

Finally, you may want to reword your post. It reeks of favoritism.
 

MCHG

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Jul 2, 2013
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MXRom said:
MCHG said:
Yahtzee is really devolving into that guy who just hates on popular games just to be different and try to rile fanboys
Up.

I don't understand how he can bash games like The Last of Us or GTAV but praise mediocre games like Bioshock Infinite or even Walking Dead: Survical Instinct, just because they're not as popular or mainstream.
Infinite was popular. In case you didn't notice. He praised Survival Instinct because it took the over used corpse of zombie survival horror and tried to actually add survival elements, kinda like State of Decay. Which is different from most which are less about survival and more a scorekeeper of how many walking corpses you can behead in an hour.

MCHG said:
Infinite had so many things Yahtzee loves to complain about. Regenerating shields, 2 weapon limit, useless RPG elements, scripted set pieces, ripping off Halo. Yet he loved it unconditionally
I don't think calling a game that shoves itself up its own butt is unconditional love.

MCHG said:
He loved Captain Walker in Spec Ops: The Line for making you play as the bad guy without you knowing but then TLOU does it better and more subtly and he doesn't even mention it?
He liked Spec Ops because YOU made the conscious choice to do the evil stuff while Walker tries to justify his actions with ever flimsier reasoning before he finally goes off the deep end. Spec Ops also did this thing where it gave you a choice and you didn't even realize it. Like say firing into a crowd of civilians. It said so in the objectives, but you could just as easily fired into the air to make them disperse but the game never said you could do that. THAT was the sort of thing Yahtzee liked.

Last of Us does not make you a 'bad guy'. It makes you the anti-hero and it becomes very clear very early, with the 'fuck you got mine' attitude that is practically a requirement for an anti-hero character.

Last of Us ends with our two heroes leaving it all behind and living happily ever after, or as close to it in post-apocalyptia. In Spec Ops you either kill yourself in penance for what you did, or you retreat further into your little delusion, covering what you did with poor justifications.

Finally, you may want to reword your post. It reeks of favoritism.
Sounds like you didn't even play TLOU and are merely parroting what Yahtzee (incorrectly) stated in his video. How do they live happily ever after? They're both scarred for life and have been through so much. Not to mention Ellie gves Joel one last chance to tell the truth and he lies to her face because he can't live with losing another person so close to him. Doesn't sound like a happy ending to me or that they "got away with it". BTW Spec Ops was far too in-your-face and obnoxious with its "message" for me to take seriously and even you can't deny that he ignored so many problems with Infinite yet nitpicked TLOU to death. He lets his own bias overtake his opinion. He clearly dislikes Naughty Dog and console exclusives so TLOU had no chance to him. Look at his E3 video where he wrote "Yeah The Last of Us next week, whatever". He was clearly ready to hate the game before he even played it an let that color his opinion. Meanwhile he overlooks all the objective flaws in Bioshock because... Why?

The Last of Us did so many things Yahtzee wants from games. Real Survival horror, a story with substance, a stealth game that has good combat and doesn't make you kill yourself every time you get caught, no cover system, no two weapon limits, no regenerating health. He's praised other games for stuff that TLOU does much better. For example, he praised Arkham Asylum for incorporating combat into a stealth game, Resistance 3 for not having two weapon limits, regenerating health or a cover system and Rage for its graphics and animations. Yet he mentioned none of this in his video. Instead he bitched about zombies being overdone (then why did he like The Walking Dead?) and how he hates Uncharted. Not to mention he said it was a generic mix of stealth, cover shooting and set pieces. Which isn't true. It has no set pieces outside of the intro and Bioshock Infinite was FAR more safe and generic than TLOU is. But of course, Yahtzee would never admit that. After all, he just wants to piss fanboys off and troll whenever a game gets critical acclaim. Even if it means being a complete hypocrite. I look forward to his Top 5 Games list this year; where he convinces himself that Survival Instinct is better than The Last of Us.
 

Britisheagle

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May 21, 2009
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Branindain said:
GTA is the perfect example of why this industry needs its Yahtzees desperately. GTA IV comes out and gets perfect scores and rampant acclaim across the board, and its Metacritic score is higher than should be possible when you consider the broad range of opinion it allegedly represents. Yet nowadays, with the hype long gone, most times I hear GTA IV mentioned, its flaws are being criticised. How is it no-one was professional enough to notice these flaws on a first playthrough? It's pathetic. And now, rather than learn anything, the cycle will begin again. Most frustrating of all, to my mind, are the reviewers who gave GTA IV a 10, and now, in giving GTA V another 10, will happily point out all the areas where it has improved weak points, or fixed problems that existed in the last version WHICH THEY GAVE A PERFECT SCORE.
This x 1000. GTA IV, when you actually took a step back and looked at it as a whole, was a very flawed game. I have still not finished it. I am not saying it is bad, because I do not believe that any one opinion is correct, but it was not perfect and certainly didn't deserve the 10's and unrelenting hype.

GTA V looks like a good game. But it also looks like everyone has little justifiable issues with it. Can we not just accept that?
 

webby

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Sep 13, 2010
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silversnake4133 said:
I find a lot of the fanboys who say they aren't fanboys bitching about how Yahtzee didn't devote his entire existence to play the next installment of "Buy this Brand Name with extra controversy" quite humorous. Remember back when he did his Final Hallway XIII review and how people said that it got good 20 hours in? Yeah, when you're a professional video games critic, long games are the bane of your existence. And this game is no different. So they're going to go on their experiences on the amount of time they allot to it and go from there. Also Yahtzee has a side business that probably doesn't run itself.
1) Criticise fanboys
2) Discuss unrelated topic
3) Offer vague reasoning for poor review
4) Be a fanboy and try to justify poor review on Yahtzees behalf.

He barely discusses the actual game whilst comparing it unfavourably to glitchy DLC that was turned into a full release and his few discussions about the actual game were incredibly nit picky (flying is haaaaard) or out and out wrong. He moans about the character whilst completely misrepresenting their personality and motivation, nobody cares if he could do all the races or whatever, they care that his description of the core game was incredibly lacking.

It's cool though, he's probably got better things to do than the thing that made him famous and pays his bills. For fucks sake.
 

smithy_2045

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Jan 30, 2008
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Zachary Amaranth said:
I mean, one of the missions in GTAV has you mopping the floor. and you have to clean out your mop head. Now, maybe you're the type of gamer who enjoys floor-mopping simulators. Maybe Environmental Services Hero is one of your big pre-orders every year. But it shouldn't really be that hard to figure out why emulating chores in video games isn't popular.
Buddy, it's your choice to do the mopping, and it's pretty damn clear when you're making the choice that it will involve mopping. It's not the game's fault that it gave you an option that you chose to take over something that may have been more exciting for you.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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smithy_2045 said:
Buddy, it's your choice to do the mopping, and it's pretty damn clear when you're making the choice that it will involve mopping. It's not the game's fault that it gave you an option that you chose to take over something that may have been more exciting for you.
Yes, because other games that have you disguise yourself have you literally doing the menial chores.

Oh, wait....

And that's kind of the point, buddy.
 

Cpt. Slow

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Dec 9, 2012
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I've been poked, badgered and belittled with the question: 'Did you get GTA V?' which I respond with a soft no (although, that was the first 10 times people asked me, now they are getting a soft growl instead) I get that people like this game, but stop annoying other people over it.

Really, not everyone shares the same taste or has the time to spend behind an X-Box/PlayStation. I haven't found games appealing the last 6 months, except for Papers, Please because that really got my blood going in a positive way. Either I'm becoming old and boring or just have 'seen it all, been there, done that'. I am leaning to the last part of my previous sentence.

Anyway, maybe I'm going to give it a whirl when it comes out on PC. Or I find a girlfriend, marry and reproduce like there is no tomorrow. Both things could happen, although me playing GTA V would be more likely.
 

C14N

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May 28, 2008
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webby said:
I can understand looking for balance in reviews, that isn't really what's going on here though. It feels more like people looking for smug validation that they made the right decision to not play a popular game so they focus on the negative reviews and ignore the positive ones. It's confirmation bias, plain and simple and it's pretty weird.

People aren't happy because someone gave a balanced review of the game, Yahtzee discusses very little at the end of the day, they're happy that he criticised it. It's effectively fanboyism of a different kind. Instead of saying something is good with limited/no evidence and getting mad when people say it isn't we have people saying it's bad with little/no evidence and being smug/condescending when a review agrees with them because they think it shows that they're clever and smart whilst everyone who bought the game is silly sheeple buying into the hype.

Obviously that isn't everyone but an actual discussion about the game hasn't managed to take off because because there's too much "flame shield up" type bullshit from the crowd that I mentioned.

e: Just to quickly add a bit more in here, look at the people comparing SR4 favourably to GTA5. SR4 is the weakest game I've played in the SR series, it's bland, repetitive, glitchy, self referential to an obnoxious degree, set in a location I've already thoroughly explored and the superpowers make guns pointless. People are still comparing it favourably to GTA5 though despite it blowing all the predecessors out of the water.
Maybe it is, I can't really speak for others but for myself, I feel like the GTA reviews were unbalanced. Honestly, even with my own favourite games, I feel like somebody needs to be harsh on them. To me, a game you love is not one that doesn't have flaws, it's just the flaws are ones you personally do not mind or which you actually enjoy. I absolutely loved Metal Gear Solid 2. I'm completely willing to concede that Raiden is annoying, the story is convoluted and ridiculous and much of the acting and dialogue are on par with daytime soap operas but it's still one of my favourites of the generation. I can say there are similar problems with other games I loved like Spec Ops: The Line, The Last of Us and Mass Effect 1.

I think Yahtzee did make some points about the problems he perceived in the game though. I at least got the following from it:
1) There is still little attempt by Rockstar to try and fix ludonarrative dissonance because the sandboxing is inconsistent with their attempts to tell a decent story
2) Childish humour is prevalent
3) Characters are badly written and neither interesting nor likeable
4) Heist missions are a good concept but spoiled by the lack of freedom to be creative
5) Building stats feels pointless because there is no long-term gain
6) Poorly placed tutorials
7) Game is overall a bit disjointed
8) Story isn't very good and tends to repeat itself in new situations
9) Art direction is improved over GTA 4
10) Physics engine and driving have improved
11) Buying property actually makes sense
12) Summary: game is okay but doesn't have any great new ideas that stand out as particularly good

so I think he did talk about the game enough in his comparatively short review (the mainstream ones I watched were all about twice as long). I certainly found it more informative as a review than the ones that told me how long it takes to drive from one end of the city to the other or that listed all the side activities you could do. Certainly, despite dozens of reviews with scores, I didn't hear many of the above criticisms mentioned at all, at least in the sample I read/watched.

You're right about the comments though. Every time a big franchise gets reviewed the number of people saying crap like "here comes fanboy rage" outnumber the actual fanboys about 10 to 1; people know what to expect by now with ZP, the reviews are generally inflammatory and somewhat against the grain. Those comments are also far more annoying than the passionate anger responses, at least the rage is fun to read.