Zero Punctuation: Grand Theft Auto 5
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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I knew that Yahtzee would give this game at least some semblance of a paddling, but I am the sort of person that judges a game based on it's lowest scoring review.
Also, no point in giving Yahtzee a flameshield, his apathy towards responses is strong enough to withstand several nuclear warheads' worth of flame.
Also, no point in giving Yahtzee a flameshield, his apathy towards responses is strong enough to withstand several nuclear warheads' worth of flame.
Well, we may get another Mailbag showdown. That would be fun.Akichi Daikashima said:
Give them time. It took like 3 pages for that one Critical Miss comic to really get going.DVS BSTrD said:
I have yet to hear a reasonable response when I ask people why they enjoy the GTA series, the most common thing I hear is "You can steal cars and shoot people." either they're very easily impressed/amused, or they have the mind of a teenager, or both. I'm sorry, but it takes more than that for me to enjoy a game. I don't hate sandbox games, Just Cause 2 kept me entertained for a very long time, and although I didn't like Red Dead Redemption that much, I still find the amount of stuff you can do in that game staggering. GTA V just feels... lacking, it's certainly not as brilliant as many people make it out to be.
It's interesting how when Yahtzee doesn't want to like a game, he brings up plot points that he doesn't particularly like and focuses on them. He did the same thing with the Last of Us.
Honestly, I miss the days when Zero Punctuation was about criticizing games due to actual issues with the gameplay and mechanics. There was hardly a word here about the gameplay itself. Yeah, the planes handle poorly but that's all that I got from this review. It really just seems lazy to me and an attempt to run against the mainstream. It's like he watched some character footage on YouTube and based the entire video on that.
I mean seriously, let's do a play-by-play. The first 45 seconds is complaining about the advertising. Then he complains about the fact that it's named GTA V even though there are more than 5 games, a joke he's made several times already about the same series. Then he complains about GTA IV. Next he describes the characters, saying they're all poorly written but gives no actual examples of them being poorly written other then that Franklin is whiny and misinterpreting Michael's overall character. After that he brings up the problem of linearity within the mission structure and the poor flight controls which I definitely agree with. The rest of the review he talks about not being able to play online yet and then saying it was ok but not great. That's just simply weak criticism and it's really disappointing.
I would have respected it a lot more if he brought up the fact that the traffic AI is pretty bad and the gunplay feels sticky and weird or maybe the brought up the texture popping and characters and cars randomly disappearing. But as far as I'm concerned there's no actual evidence that he even played the game.
I truly don't have a problem with people disliking what I don't like. Metal Gear Solid is a favorite of mine and I didn't have a problem with his MGS4 review. I also like Dead Space, Gears of War, and Borderlands. My problem is when the criticism isn't well thought out.
Honestly, I miss the days when Zero Punctuation was about criticizing games due to actual issues with the gameplay and mechanics. There was hardly a word here about the gameplay itself. Yeah, the planes handle poorly but that's all that I got from this review. It really just seems lazy to me and an attempt to run against the mainstream. It's like he watched some character footage on YouTube and based the entire video on that.
I mean seriously, let's do a play-by-play. The first 45 seconds is complaining about the advertising. Then he complains about the fact that it's named GTA V even though there are more than 5 games, a joke he's made several times already about the same series. Then he complains about GTA IV. Next he describes the characters, saying they're all poorly written but gives no actual examples of them being poorly written other then that Franklin is whiny and misinterpreting Michael's overall character. After that he brings up the problem of linearity within the mission structure and the poor flight controls which I definitely agree with. The rest of the review he talks about not being able to play online yet and then saying it was ok but not great. That's just simply weak criticism and it's really disappointing.
I would have respected it a lot more if he brought up the fact that the traffic AI is pretty bad and the gunplay feels sticky and weird or maybe the brought up the texture popping and characters and cars randomly disappearing. But as far as I'm concerned there's no actual evidence that he even played the game.
I truly don't have a problem with people disliking what I don't like. Metal Gear Solid is a favorite of mine and I didn't have a problem with his MGS4 review. I also like Dead Space, Gears of War, and Borderlands. My problem is when the criticism isn't well thought out.
I can tell you firsthand that Saints Row 4 is absolute garbage and not even accidentally good. It's not even a matter of opinion. It's glitchy, boring, has absolutely no sense of pacing, most of the content is literally copy-pasted from Saints Row 3, the missions are insultingly easy, and the superpowers simply break the game.ImBigBob said:
*Peeks up from behind Flame Shield*
Phew, maybe it's about expectations, Yahtzee has pulled games in his best of lists to pieces so even the Rage Monsters have no reason to be shocked at this.
Anyway, closer to on topic but not really, I've been playing a lot of Minecraft, you know even in that innocent seeming game my character is not nice, I've single-handedly destroyed populations of animals and plundered a continents worth of precious stones (mostly to lose it all falling in lava anyway!!) all so I can get up and do it some more tomorrow. And have a big house on a hill, with turrets, and a big walled staircase, and a pier... So, Greed.
I'll be giving GTA5 a miss, I like my open worlds more RPG like anywho.
Phew, maybe it's about expectations, Yahtzee has pulled games in his best of lists to pieces so even the Rage Monsters have no reason to be shocked at this.
Anyway, closer to on topic but not really, I've been playing a lot of Minecraft, you know even in that innocent seeming game my character is not nice, I've single-handedly destroyed populations of animals and plundered a continents worth of precious stones (mostly to lose it all falling in lava anyway!!) all so I can get up and do it some more tomorrow. And have a big house on a hill, with turrets, and a big walled staircase, and a pier... So, Greed.
I'll be giving GTA5 a miss, I like my open worlds more RPG like anywho.
You know you can disagree with someone's opinion WITHOUT insulting them.OuendanCyrus said:
OT: To each his own, I personally find it to be pretty fun. I do agree that people freaking out over a 3 and a half star review is pretty damn disgusting though.
That off-key scream of yours at the end caught me slightly off guard. When was the last time you tried to jump a few octaves, Yahtzee? :3
OT: So GTA5 is incredibly meh, or at least that's what your opinion comes across as this time around, like so many other games today that are incapable of being plain shit or kickass. Actually that's what turned me off everything too - the "meh"-ness is the new "shit".
OT: So GTA5 is incredibly meh, or at least that's what your opinion comes across as this time around, like so many other games today that are incapable of being plain shit or kickass. Actually that's what turned me off everything too - the "meh"-ness is the new "shit".
I personally don't like people comparing GTA and SR anymore. Yeah at one point they were quite similar, but they've gone down two distinct paths that Yahtzee himself understands: parody/satire vs. reference. SR cranked up the wacky and geek meta-gaming to try and be as fun as possible, but completely forgot how to make a game challenging. GTA keeps the game challenging and makes you getting away with your crimes a lofty goal, and sends a message by basically satirizing the era and location the game's in every time... which isn't nearly as mindlessly fun.
I think people don't have to like both series, in fact I think the two are polarizing enough now that it would be hard to like both without being new enough to games to create some personal biases. Currently I like GTA more but that could change in later games. It's hard not to assume Rockstar is just trying harder, but that's also because they have a mountain of cash to spend on the GTA series. I don't blame anyone for liking one more than the other, including Yahtzee... but I'm playing the one I enjoy more personally.
I think people don't have to like both series, in fact I think the two are polarizing enough now that it would be hard to like both without being new enough to games to create some personal biases. Currently I like GTA more but that could change in later games. It's hard not to assume Rockstar is just trying harder, but that's also because they have a mountain of cash to spend on the GTA series. I don't blame anyone for liking one more than the other, including Yahtzee... but I'm playing the one I enjoy more personally.
Im glad im not the only one noticing the flying. I love going on a plane or chopper and just mess around, but what's the point of having a "Flight" skill when even if maxed out, it handles like you're drunk or you're always in the middle of a very very very windy spot.
I laughed out loud at the office with the last sentences
I laughed out loud at the office with the last sentences
Fun show this week 
Whole bunch of lines that cracked me up (always in conjunction with the awesome images). Last bit was hilarious too.
On a side note. I must be the only person under this sun that actually enjoyed GTA IV's vehicle physics. (I actually liked them a spot more than I do GTA V's)
Whole bunch of lines that cracked me up (always in conjunction with the awesome images). Last bit was hilarious too.
On a side note. I must be the only person under this sun that actually enjoyed GTA IV's vehicle physics. (I actually liked them a spot more than I do GTA V's)
What he describes is pretty much the perspective I got as someone that never played GTA. Aside from a couple hours in GTA2 with a dozen silly cheats enabled 'cause the missions bored the snot out of me.
I expected the whole sandbox thing to make for more organic "Fuck yeah" moments tho. 'cause otherwise the game looks like a collection of games I already have, just not done as in-depth or with the variety in setting.
So I really bet everything on that "organic gameplay" wildcard that, fickle as it is, apparently just didn't resonate with Yahtzee.
Can someone that actually played (and perhaps even liked) the game elaborate with something specific? "It had great characters" or "shooting the gun feels really good" wouldn't tell me a whole lot.
I expected the whole sandbox thing to make for more organic "Fuck yeah" moments tho. 'cause otherwise the game looks like a collection of games I already have, just not done as in-depth or with the variety in setting.
So I really bet everything on that "organic gameplay" wildcard that, fickle as it is, apparently just didn't resonate with Yahtzee.
Can someone that actually played (and perhaps even liked) the game elaborate with something specific? "It had great characters" or "shooting the gun feels really good" wouldn't tell me a whole lot.
I have to admit, I was having a decent enough time with GTA5, but the moment I finished the main story I had little interest in ever going back. Even with GTA Online's functionality looming over the horizon, I can't bring myself to care for it that much.
And I think the reason why is, as Yahtzee said, it's just a bunch of stuff with little coherence. Even GTA4 managed this better than 5.
And I think the reason why is, as Yahtzee said, it's just a bunch of stuff with little coherence. Even GTA4 managed this better than 5.
It's mostly a question of what's being done with the sandbox tools.Sgt. Sykes said:
Saints Row IV is the last milestone in a progressive effort to put fun ahead of any kind of lofty socio-critical or "socio-satirical" goals, so all of the wackiness you feel doesn't really bring much to the table is a reflection of Volition trying to cram in as many individually fun mechanics as possible.
It works, for the most part. You don't *have* to customize the Boss so he looks like Pennywise the Clown, but you can. You don't *have* to pack tentacle dildos and alien rifles, but you can. You don't *have* to meld into the setting's general craziness and you can design a straight-man or woman persona - but you also can choose to simply wing it and follow along. It's a big pile of inclusive mechanics that's just begging to be explored.
As for GTA - the focus is squarely on satire. If that's more up your alley, so be it. It's a horrible and horribly shallow version of America and Western culture as a whole, but that's largely the point. I, for one, don't exactly feel like playing a game that endlessly pokes fun at habits that might not be so bad, if they're used sparingly and responsibly. The LifeInvader functions being the best example of that. Rockstar is implicitly telling us that social networks favor exhibitionism or stalking behaviours, but the fact is that we all *choose* to use that service or not, and we all can choose what to put in our Facebook profiles.
For instance, I use a sock puppet-esque account, myself. Facebook is largely a tool for me to keep up with family photos and the whereabouts of a few travelling friends. I don't obsess over my amount of friends and I'm not about to start running after near-complete strangers from my elementary or high school years so I look like I'm "in" with the social networking crowd.
Considering, the game's parody of Facebook doesn't touch me. It feels contrived, like an annoying and self-deluded would-be funnyman who keeps poking you and going "HEY. HEY. LOOK. I'M BEING META. OR CLEVER. OR POSSIBLY BOTH. HEY."
Again, that's just my opinion, but "clever" writing is of lesser importance to me than the general sense that the game isn't born out of some pool of negativity. GTA V feels like it was written by dissatisfied thirtysomethings on the verge of pulling a Tyler Durden, whereas SRIV feels silly and self-assured enough to be the work of someone who loves the idiosyncrasies of popular culture and life in general.
It's simply fun. Maybe running around an enormous open world with tons of interesting and varied missions all while being backed by hilarious dialogue isn't enough for you and that's fine. It's mostly the exploration aspect that gets me. While the story keeps me interested and is actually really well written, just driving around finding new things to do is what I really enjoy. At any point, I can go ghost hunting, skydiving, do a race, do side missions that normally involve something crazy happening, or just go straight mayhem mode and try to survive 5 star wanted levels. It's just whatever you want to do. This differs from other open world games that feel empty and boring. No matter where you go in GTA V, there's almost always something to do.Marik Bentusi said:
I'm so far behind everyone it's silly. I've yet to complete Yakuza 3 and yet to start Dark Souls. Saints Row 3 sits in my PC along with a plethora of stuff I've gotten from Humble Bundles, which are great for trying new things, and a handful of other shit I have yet to really sink my teeth into.
My point is simply that as the industry plays itself these days waiting for a year or longer for a GOTY version of a game seems almost impossible not to do. Just ask Arkham City, it's been perched in my laptop for a while now. Maybe I will get around to Lollipop Chainsaw soon, maybe I will find the time for Children of Eden, someday I'd like to give StarCraft 2 a whirl, but only once they've unfucked themselves and I get a battle-chest collection of that "sequel trilogy".
As much as I'd like to play GTAV, hype immunity means that one's going to be on standby for a while, perhaps until a Complete Edition is released then inevitably discounted as well. Not that I mind, I doubt the online community for that will go away anytime soon, but if that's as bad as it was on RDR, I won't be missing much.
Fair review, Yahtzee. I would only wish to point out that even if they'd consolidated their writing staff into a more solid group it probably still would have been pretty weak.
My point is simply that as the industry plays itself these days waiting for a year or longer for a GOTY version of a game seems almost impossible not to do. Just ask Arkham City, it's been perched in my laptop for a while now. Maybe I will get around to Lollipop Chainsaw soon, maybe I will find the time for Children of Eden, someday I'd like to give StarCraft 2 a whirl, but only once they've unfucked themselves and I get a battle-chest collection of that "sequel trilogy".
As much as I'd like to play GTAV, hype immunity means that one's going to be on standby for a while, perhaps until a Complete Edition is released then inevitably discounted as well. Not that I mind, I doubt the online community for that will go away anytime soon, but if that's as bad as it was on RDR, I won't be missing much.
Fair review, Yahtzee. I would only wish to point out that even if they'd consolidated their writing staff into a more solid group it probably still would have been pretty weak.
Over time as I've gotten immune to Yahtzee's shtick (or either he has just gotten less funny) it has left me wondering whether he is actually reviewing things or whether he is reviewing things as this character Yahtzee would review them.
This was a particularly poor review and I actually agree with a lot of the points. It doesn't seem to have a very strong structure (there's not the usual rise to power arc), the heists felt too linear and tonally it does struggle between being serious, satirical and then just plain silly. However a lot of what he said was either irrelevant, hyper critical or just false. The characters were genuinely entertaining even if the plot was a mess and I think the reason he doesn't bother to gave any serious explanation for that comment is because he can't come up with one. In a medium where a lot of protagonists don't even speak it seems bizarre to write off some well acted and written characters so dismissively. Some of the other things he said felt like he hadn't even played it properly: the flying training missions were optional side quests so you could learn how to do some tricks not a prerequisite for flying a plane.
If you're going to start of a review by comparing the people that like it to brainwashed pigs eating shit you had better bring out your most intelligent stuff.
This was a particularly poor review and I actually agree with a lot of the points. It doesn't seem to have a very strong structure (there's not the usual rise to power arc), the heists felt too linear and tonally it does struggle between being serious, satirical and then just plain silly. However a lot of what he said was either irrelevant, hyper critical or just false. The characters were genuinely entertaining even if the plot was a mess and I think the reason he doesn't bother to gave any serious explanation for that comment is because he can't come up with one. In a medium where a lot of protagonists don't even speak it seems bizarre to write off some well acted and written characters so dismissively. Some of the other things he said felt like he hadn't even played it properly: the flying training missions were optional side quests so you could learn how to do some tricks not a prerequisite for flying a plane.
If you're going to start of a review by comparing the people that like it to brainwashed pigs eating shit you had better bring out your most intelligent stuff.