Zero Punctuation: inFamous

Vendor Xeno

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Jun 10, 2009
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I gotsta agreez with Stig_Martial. I see a lot of appeals to reason and logic but they seem to then be subsequently tied into semantics and personal morality.

Case in point, Pellucid : It is not necessarily life's "purpose" to survive. Observing the apparent chemical behavior of life on earth and determining that because it does a very good job of surviving, then that makes survival life's "purpose" is frivolous, not logical, since you have no evidence or rational basis for applying purpose to the behavior. Were we to embrace this kind of "reason" then any pyromaniac could make the same argument. "But fire's purpose is to rapidly expand and burn everything it can. Its only logical that I tailor my behavior to promote it!"

Obviously this is just a cherry picked example of a rampant behavior.
 

nipsen

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Cheeze_Pavilion said:
I think it is neither semantics nor personal morality to hold there is a difference worth keeping in mind between the tyranny of the majority and the tyranny of a dictator using force or the threat of it to get the majority to rubber stamp his actions.
Mm. That was a good point. (...shame you sort of have to think about it for a while to understand it, I suppose, but).

I see where Stig is coming from, though. I'm not sure what actually causes it (except maybe too much focus on creating intellectuals instead of learning people to think, or something like that.. totally random thought), but very often you get long logical pieces of reasoning that essentially will presuppose a point of view, and simply use the analysis to plug it. With no regard for anything else, or any shortcuts that might've happened on the way.

So instead of reasoning up till a point, and then either saying: ..and this is why I think that.. Or: given that this is true, then... - something that would encourage discussion, and leave an opening for improvement of the analysis, or a change of opinion - people instead say: And that's why X is undisputably true, the "facts" speak for themselves, it is logical, etc..

It pains me to say it, but this is something that gives the "right"(for lack of a better term) a very valid point when they insist that successful ideology is simply a matter of arguing for what you already believe in with conviction. In the sense that the "left" will find one set of truths, and the right will find another - and to promote the point of view, the idea is simply to indoctrinate people with views agreeable to your own, and exclude poisonous trickery from the witches, evil people, and so on.

In other words the truth is purely subjective, because it only depends on conviction alone, no matter what the issue is. I think an american phil... *wave*.. thinker..*cough* called Richard Rorty had several unintended strokes of genius when explaining how he believes philosophy is an ongoing debate over what the best words are in any given situation - and that the winning candidate is simply whoever can use language to get what they want. In another circumstance he would explain such things that the method used to teach at schools is no different from the one used in a church, for example - in that the lef are indoctrinating people to become reasonably tolerant, thinking beings with particular types of beliefs and convictions. Just like the other ones.

Which of course makes sense in that context - the only purpose is to get your way, whatever it is for whatever reason, and so there is no fundamental difference between a logic and belief. They are, or so he explains, simply two systems of belief. End of discussion, as they say.

Of course, the irony here is that what he's describing is - while a very interesting philosophical question that might actually lead somewhere if he did some, any, work on it - is the actual context of a real life scenario. Where a large amount of people are convinced that logic or deliberate and open reasoning, done for the purpose of inviting debate and creating conscious choices, is simply is a sham.

But it's my "belief" that this would be less of a popular point of view if people were better educated. My belief, mind you.

----

Uh... anyway. Back to playing inFamous. I'm going to get to the top of the junk- pile in the Warrens today :D
 

nipsen

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Cheeze_Pavilion said:
See, that's where Stig is totally wrong, though. I took Pellucid's point of view--granted him that he was right for the sake of argument--and showed why his point of view led to results that are unpalatable to him. There's a big difference between arguing that your point of view is better, and showing someone that their point of view is incoherent.
Yeah.. I meant a general "you".. sorry, didn't come out that well. :D

Yeah, but see the thing about Rorty from what I've read about him is he acknowledged that what he was doing was no longer philosophy, but rather "cultural commentary" or something. He left the Philosophy dept. at Princeton for the Humanities at UVA, in fact: he put his money where his mouth was.

The problem with people who talk of "subjectivity" is that they don't: they keep using all the old terminology and assuming the same intellectual warrant as they were before.
Doubleplus agreement.

..But Rorty is still a jerk.
 

Stig_Marshall

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Apr 13, 2009
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I only wrote what I did to stir up a political storm as it were. I seem to have succeeded :p
Btw cheese pavillion I LOVE your clock analogy at the top of page 11, very clever ;)

And what you said about you having more stead because you've had an account longer than me? Baloney. I've been a debater for yonks and a whelp only in name. And anyway you can hardly deny that this is a gaming forum and this particular section is for comments on a certain video. There's plenty of off topic sections for you to rant about your ideologies and their apparently undisputable truths.

However I suppose i can't fault you for trying to convey your ideology and convert others to it since ultimately thats what politics is for. Without that it'd just be a conversation lol

Not bad though. I wouldn't mind having you on my debating team haha. Are you a memeber of one? You oughta join one if not. Bloody good fun and seems to me your cut out for it. Your metaphors made me chuckle :D
 

tkwelge

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May 13, 2009
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nipsen said:
tkwelge said:
Viacom played the liberal game for decades. Why are they not as evil as Fox? Personally, I don't watch fox news because it is boring and still not real libertarian news. But when I do watch it, I just have to ask, "What is all the fuss about?"
...Well, unlike The Daily Show, Fox is fielding what they're doing in complete seriousness. Several of the anchors write books about how they see their "efforts" as being a counter point to the liberal bias in the "world", etc. And excuse their over the top appeals to aggressive xenophobia, even torture, by that logic.

I don't have a problem with it existing as such. It's more that I'm concerned with the fact that people watch it and accept the world- view they are consciously selling, and tie it to a particular political platform and specific support for particular issues. I would have the same problem if John Stewart went around and evangelized for common health- care proposals the democrats would have - and consciously avoided any type of information about the actual proposals in favour of appeals to avoid thinking completely. And then justified it through his holy mission to "push back" the evil conservatives. While of course stating how such and such number of like- minded individuals legitimize everything he would do. I mean, I meet conservatives who are nice people in general - and they don't see the big fuss about torturing people who are obviously evil, and things like that. And I ask - why is it a good thing? How do you justify it? And I get - well, you have to do it sometimes, because it's the right thing.. you know. Don't we have to do it? We do, don't we - or else they wouldn't do something serious like that, right? We can't argue with these people, can we? ..It's just a severe indictment of the public political culture in the US.

So yeah, not really a position on politics, but on the process used to reach political standpoints, getting people to vote, etc. And..you know - Fox found a very welcome audience in some parts of the US that simply doesn't exist elsewhere. Again, that alone isn't an indictment of the content they are fielding. It's just an observation about how extremely shallow political appeals are part of serious campaigns for political office. And how it has an appeal in frighteningly large parts of the US.

And no, it's not hyperbole to call what they're arguing for soft fascism. It's an appeal to how force solves anything, including differences of opinion - and they are doing a conscious effort to legitimize those views to people who don't know any better. People.. who would apparently vote for a guy who vows to make slavery a fun and patriotic activity, as long as it's only brown people and foreign looking evil dudes that does the slaving

Someone already beat me to the punch of responding to this comment. I'm sorry, being an idealogue is being an idealogue. Your entire argument is that it's okay for Stewart to be an idealogue, because it's all in good fun (retarded argument. The soft media has just as much power or more power than the the "news" media. And yes, Stewart is trying to be serious in his show. He said time and time again that this is true. He even said, "I'm not here to be fair!" and he admits he pedals his (and his massive writing staffs') bias. YOu attache this weird power to everything fox news says that makes them entirely evil, while giving other commentators a pass, because hey, fox news is just evil. You also build several straw man arguments and make ad hominim statements in your post:

("And no, it's not hyperbole to call what they're arguing for soft fascism. It's an appeal to how force solves anything, including differences of opinion - and they are doing a conscious effort to legitimize those views to people who don't know any better. People.. who would apparently vote for a guy who vows to make slavery a fun and patriotic activity, as long as it's only brown people and foreign looking evil dudes that does the slaving")

What!?!:!?! Republicans want to make all brown people slaves? WTF!!!!! And when you talk about Fox News taking advantage of "parts" of this country, you're being downright offensive. Cause all us yokels are too busy changing the oil in our tractors to be able to check the real facts like you smart folk, gosh! Hu yuk! LIke the liberal side of the media doesn't get all of its viewers from a specific part of the country. Everyone is biased! It's not just the people you disagree with. Don't you get that you dumb pile of crap!?!?!?

And most of the conservative that I know are against torture. You see, that's what you do. You pile all of the crazy conservative idealogues together and call and then draw gross generalizations about all conservatives (and us yokels!). Then, you give Stewart a pass by analyzing him individually and saying that "he's just one commentator with limited power, who's not trying to be serious (even though he is and does in fact argue for his sides agenda on a nightly basis). You can't cherry pick like that. Now that obama's in power, watching that kind of commentary is becoming ridiculous. I mean, I've seen several episodes where Stewart defends and rationalizes every policy that the democrats push for. The exact opposite of what he did for the republicans, and yes that makes him an idealogue plain and simple. An idealogue is an idealogue. Rush Limbaugh spends a lot of his show cracking jokes, too. And the Rush Limbaugh show is sold and marketed as "entertainment." And Rush Limbaugh has no more power than John Stewart does. What separates the two? Don't say their opinions either.

THe Democrats have no problem using force to achieve their objectives. Obama has rolled back none of the executive branch power grabs that Bush made. Obama has done unconstitutional things with the economy. He still keeps the drug war going with a softer kushier name. Smoke and mirrors by the way. He didn't bring the troops home (and he might add some). He's keeping the legal framework in place to allow Guantanomo like facilities, even if he does close it down. He's creating more czars in the first couple hundred days of his presidency than the Russians created in centuries. Obama is all about power. And power is force plain and simple.
 

tkwelge

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This isn't about a tyranny of the majority or minority. Obama didn't get more than 53% of the vote, and many people didn't vote. The people don't get any say in what Obama does anymore. He didn't post the stimulus bill so we could see it like he said he would, he ignored the top issue in his online town hall for the sake of the pet projects that he already supported, and the stimulus watch site won't be up till next year. Does the UAW represent the "majority?" He's a pluralistic elitist like Bush plain and simple. Tyranny of the majority isn't the problem. It's trying to tar and feather the other side with star wars metaphors of good and evil, and sitting in your little groups pretending that it's you vs the evil empire that breeds stupidity in this world.
 

tkwelge

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FloodOne said:
tkwelge said:
I never really saw what was so controversial about rupert murdoch and fox news. They give an outlet for people on both sides of the aisle to speak, and the host of Red Eye is a libertarian. Soft christian fascism? Come on now...... Yes, there are idealogues on fox news, but they exist on every network. How come John Stewart isn't a "talking head." He has a massive writing staff and only talks for about maybe an hour a week on the air. Viacom played the liberal game for decades. Why are they not as evil as Fox? Personally, I don't watch fox news because it is boring and still not real libertarian news. But when I do watch it, I just have to ask, "What is all the fuss about?"
John Stewart has a show on Comedy Central.

If you get your world news from Comedy fucking Central, you have far bigger issues than Repub v. Dem
Exactly my point. John Stewart doesn't even really provide news. It is pure commentary. Pure ideology. People don't go to stewart for news. They do it for ideology, and trust me, anyone who really disagrees with John Stewart can't watch for that long without getting pissed off, so don't argue that people watch it primarily, "because it's funny." That's part of it, but it's not funny to anyone who disagrees with him.
 

tkwelge

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May 13, 2009
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I'm not just trying to pick on Democrats here. I hate most true Republicans these days, and I can't stand right wing talk radio. I have listened to a lot of it in the past, but these days both parties have lost their way. The only reason I'm defending the right in my comments is because the democrats and other lefties have built up such an ad hominim hatred of republicans that they are starting to argue against straw men and not actual conservatives.

Most conservatives that I talk to:

Don't want torture!
Don't want war!
Don't go around shouting USA USA USA!

And nobody is really arguing that Obama is responsible for our current economy. Even most of the right wing idealogues have admitted that the problems were here before obama. THe problem is that whenever anybody criticizes obama's economic policies, they immediately respond, "Hey! Obama didn't cause this mess! But he's saddled with the task of fixing it!" And by "fixing it" they mean "pushing his overall economic agenda while breeding discontent within the market to make it hate itself." Yes, he isn't responsible for this mess, just like Bush wasn't responsible for 9/11 But both presidents are using crisis as an excuse to push an agenda.

Plus, you lefties spend so much time arguing against the conservatives (who have no power in society right now) while ignoring the great arguments of intelligent libertarians. You have no time for that, you're too busy beating a dead horse.
 

tkwelge

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May 13, 2009
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I just watched the latest video on E3. I liked the closing joke, "I'm shit, you're shit, we're all shit; if you're sitting there thinking, 'yes the world is shit, except me' then you're a double shit with a side of fries!" (I'm paraphrasing the joke.) I wonder if this was his response to the political discussion in this thread.
 

Vendor Xeno

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Jun 10, 2009
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I think you're absolutely right. The position itself is neither of those things. However, in your defense of it you seem to have wandered into those realms....
 

Vendor Xeno

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This is an attempt to sidestep the issues Stewart reveals by supposing that someone providing commentary and comedy can't also provide facts and reasons. There have been repeated studies finding that people who watch the daily show end up being more politically informed than people who watch CNN or Fox News, two entities which have increasingly been demonstrated to avoid real news and promote disinformation.
 

nipsen

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..actually, that survey thing was a pop- quiz on cnn.com. And the Daily Show viewers scored around 50% against 25% for the rest, on questions like: what is president Bush's middle name.

@twelge: I sure I explained how the process of finding a point of view is the problem. [Insert sarcasm here]
 

ThePhobicMan

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Jun 19, 2009
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Good job pointing out the moral choice bit, there needs to be more options. Sounds fun, although I have a 360.
 

tkwelge

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Vendor Xeno said:
This is an attempt to sidestep the issues Stewart reveals by supposing that someone providing commentary and comedy can't also provide facts and reasons. There have been repeated studies finding that people who watch the daily show end up being more politically informed than people who watch CNN or Fox News, two entities which have increasingly been demonstrated to avoid real news and promote disinformation.
I completely agree that stewart gives real information and facts, but he veils them in idealogical muck. Like...... Fox News (sometimes). Most of the "shows" on Fox News are opinionated entertainment, and they are up front with their views. Bill O'Reilly and Hannity don't just go on the air saying, "this is absolute fact!" You know that their shows are infotainment plain and simple. Just as you know the national enquirer is BS. You attack these people like they are supposed to be newsmen, but they never really go out of their way to appear as such. Hannitty has never called himself a "journalist." Stewart's show is the opposite. It is supposed to be infotainment, but it tries to slip in lots of stuff to support a populistic agenda. I consider stewart to be the Hannity of Viacom.

Interesting side note:

Rush Limbaugh has a primarily unscripted show that he operates on the fly despite his auditory handicap (partially deaf now). He takes plenty of calls from people who disagree with him and argues primarily from memory. His true on air time during the week is about 6 or 7 hours (15 hours of show minus commercials). John Stewart is on the air about 45 minutes a week (2.5 hours of show minus commercials, side segments, guest segments etc.) and depends on a giant writing staff. Everything he does is pre rehearsed and scripted. The only thing "on the fly" is the guest interviews, and for that he simply uses a bully pulpit mentality against his opponents so that they can't make their case, or if they are on his side, he becomes david letterman, simply there to crack jokes and throw praise upon the guest. John Stewart is an idealogical brand pushing infotainment (biased of course)as actual discourse. That makes him just as bad as a Fox News commenter in my opinion, or worse.
 

gelgamath

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Dec 27, 2008
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the final boss battle is actually purity short if your evil because you just arc lighting his ass
 

Canadamus Prime

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Jun 17, 2009
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Although I haven't played inFamous, I do agree that some moral grey area would be nice. I was esp. ticked in KOTOR II when your moral alignment meant going with either the Jedi or the Sith when as the game wore on I found myself wanting to give a genuine F-U to both groups.
You're probably right about Yahtzee, about how a truly evil person would do things. That is pretending to be all nice and benevolent until he's acquired enough power and then BOOM!
I believe several villains have done that exact thing. That was how Emperor Palpatine rose to power. I believe the Shredder from the 2000's redoing of TMNT did something similar, maintained a perfectly legitimate public face, as Saki, while running his criminal empire as the Shredder out of the public eye.