Zero Punctuation: Killzone: Shadow Fall

smithy_2045

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Xan Krieger said:
Griffolion said:
Xan Krieger said:
So you're assuming equivalency of cost between backwards compatibility and the Kinect?
Didn't they say the kinect was about half the cost of the system? How much could backwards compatibility cost compared to that?
They more or less said that the Kinect is the difference in cost between the Xbox One and the PS4. So about $100US.

How exactly do you put a price point on backwards compatibility though? It's pure speculation how much it might've cost unless you were part of the dev team and were part of the decision making process behind choosing to not go with a backwards compatible console.
 

orangeapples

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You wanna know why Sony dropped backwards compatability from the functions list when they were designing the PS4? Because NOBODY thought it was a good idea when it was on PS3. Sony said, "Look, this machine can play BluRay movies, PS3 games and any PS2/1 game disks you own!" and people responded, "But that's $599! I'll just hold onto my PS2 and get a 360." That's right, the reason there is no backwards compatibility now is because their fanbase said, "that's too expensive and dumb." You can blame every person who owned PS2 and moved to 360. Now that Sony has the cheaper machine everyone expects backwards compatibility? You didn't support it last time and there is no reason why you would actually support it this time. You say you will, but you wouldn't. With PS4 at $599 and XB1 at $499 guess what console everyone would have bought.



Now onto the game at hand: Both the Helghast and ISA are dicks.
 

RicoADF

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Griffolion said:
Just a quick question about the whole not liking the current console generation due to lack of backwards compatibility thing. Were people really prepared to pay the likely $600 - $800 for one that did have native backwards compatibility?
Yes, yes I would. I paid $1000 AUD for the backwards compatible PS3 and would have happily paid that premium for a limited edition PS4/XBO console and left the cheaper standard version for those that don't care. Honestly both consoles could have done it :-/

Captcha: cold shoulder - yes, and the designers deserve it for being idiots.
 

oldtaku

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I also completely gave up on the plot on this thing in the first 30 seconds (still in the intro movie) where we are informed that Space USA blew up the planet of the Space Soviet Nazis then.... gave them half their home planet to colonize.

That was so goddamn stupid I was out for the rest of the game. I don't really know who did what to who, or why. On the other hand, the combat was kinda fun, especially the open sections and the drone. And it was pretty.

So exactly like every other Killzone game (except the Vita one), but with much higher frame rate.
 

Triality

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I can say with confidence that this review stands apart form others in recent memory for being a multi-hit combo of hilarity. The bit at the beginning with the caveat, the jokes deeper in, it all gelled so nicely. This was Yahtzee in his best form. Good show.
 

Dragonlayer

Aka Corporal Yakob
Dec 5, 2013
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Holy feth! Yatzhee praising a game from a series I love!? And it's Killzone of all things!? I am flabbergasted!

I don't care what he said: as soon as I get the cash I'm getting a PS4 and this game.
 

fieryshadowcard

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The ONLY reason backwards compatibility is so impractical for the PS4 in the first place is because using the cell technology in the PS3 was a ridiculously short-sighted idea. Had they not done something so obscenely stupid that developers for their console still at the END of that console generation can't quite figure out how to design games around it, we'd all be talking as if backwards compatibility IS a staple. Sony shot themselves in the foot with that misstep. Let's be honest; backwards compatibility itself didn't shave off $200 from the console. In actuality, it might have shaved off half as much (if that), with the other $100 coming from Sony deciding to sell their consoles at a loss just so they could get people to buy their games in the first place. But that's only if you think that backwards compatibility was the only thing cut out in that price cut; it wasn't.

The PS3 lost quite a few features from its initial release, including a larger storage capacity. Truth be told, if I wanted anything jettisoned from the PS3, it would have been the BluRay. I still don't own a BluRay player and I have not seen--let alone touched--a BluRay disc or player since they came out. Sony was so obsessed with pushing their latest home entertainment tech during the PS3 launch that they forgot what they should have been pushing on a gaming console--games. During the PS2 era, DVD Players had already been out for a good while before the PS2, so integrating them in wasn't nearly as huge a gamble as with the PS3 and BluRay.

SirBryghtside said:
Just so you know, here's a complete list of consoles that have full backwards compatibility with a previous system:

PS2
Wii
Wii U
Anything before the PS2 era has found its way onto the PC in some form of emulation or another, but even then, those games were much easier to emulate so it's hardly fair to stretch that all the way back to the days of Atari when you're talking about a feature that's only been around for little over a decade (full backwards compatibility, that is, although partial and even significant backwards compatibility have been around since the days of SNES and Game Boy).

In this current age of gaming as we know it (which would have started with the PS2/XBox/Gamecube), Sony revolutionized the way we perceive what our consoles can do when they more or less said six, simple words: "Your PS2 can run PS1 games." This era STARTED with backwards compatibility, and in that context, your list actually comprises a third of the competitive consoles that have come out since then. More than half actually, since there still do exist PS3s that offer backwards compatibility, and it's a bit disingenuous not to point out that lack of backwards compatibility for Microsoft's consoles has always been a sore point for XBox owners. So really, if you exclude the company that refuses to play the compatibility game for whatever reason, even though PCs which have always been their domain do it so easily (hell, PCs are now emulating PS2 and Gamecube games), then it's actually half of the applicable consoles that have had backwards compatibility. And let's not forget that Nintendo's handhelds have offered full backwards compatibility as a near-staple since the GBA days, although they've only ever extended it to the immediately preceding handheld instead of all prior handhelds.

Sony STARTED something when they released the PS2, and they messed it up when they made that horrible decision to cut backwards compatibility instead of BluRay with the PS3. If the PS4 had been the PS3, we'd still have backwards compatibility and these arguments about cost-efficiency would have little merit; everyone would instead be praising Sony and Nintendo for their forward-thinking and the XBox One would have taken a much harsher blow than it did from the entire backwards compatibility debate. "It only does everything" would not have become the joke of a tagline that it is today.
 

Dragonlayer

Aka Corporal Yakob
Dec 5, 2013
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Sniper Team 4 said:
I'm just wondering, but am I the only person who think that the Helghast are actually bad guys? Okay, yes, they got the short end of the stick. No, that wasn't fair that the ISA pulled such a dick move. Germany also got the short end of the stick at the end of World War I, yet I don't see anyone going around saying that the Nazis had good reasons to do what they did.
The Helghast invaded a colony world and started killing without remorse. Military and civilians. So of course Vekta and Earth are going to respond. Then, it's revealed that the Helghast are building a literal planet-killing weapon which they fully intend to use on Earth. A weapon that will kill EVERYONE on the planet, or at least the overwhelming majority of people. And if I remember right, the 'good guys' at the end of three didn't deliberately set off the weapon. They were trying to prevent it from going off (you know, trying to save all the people back on Earth) and then, in the ensuing gun fight, stuff blew up. They didn't go and push the button and laugh, and I seem to recall they were horrified at what had just happened. Or am I remembering the end of Killzone 3 wrong?
I'm not saying that the good guys are not at fault, but I'm starting to wonder if I'm the only person that thinks the Helghast are getting too much of a free pass because of what happened to them over a hundred years ago. I mean, one of the first scenes from Shadowfall shows a Helghan soldier walking up and shooting a wounded woman in the head in cold blood, then executing the man who was trying to help her. These aren't exactly Nobel Peace Prize winners here.
Yes you are, you despicable Vektan sympathiser!

Ahem.

A few counter-parts to all that:

- The Germany analogy in this instance only works if Europe was completely devoid of human life until the 1870s when the country is founded by people from across the channel, having been given exclusive permission to settle there without interference provided they obey the laws of the cross-channel countries. Germany does so but it turns out that the nation is sitting right on top of the world's most potent oil/coal/vital natural resource deposits, so much so that Germany now provides the rest of the world's needs in these areas. The cross-channel authorities don't like this one bit and when the German government starts charging tariffs on anyone who wants to use these resources (but not cripplingly high taxes), the cross-channel folks form the Allied powers and launch a surprise war on the unprepared Germans, crushing them within hours in a curb-stomp battle. The Treaty of Versailles is then imposed and dismantles Germany, removes its entire government from power, disbands its military forces and makes the former country a vassal-state, allowing the Allies to bring in their own people to recolonise the land. A minority of Germans take issue with this and begin a guerilla campaign to make trouble for the Allies, receiving enough support from the population to make it an on-going threat serious enough for the Allied governor to declare martial law and enact increasingly draconian laws. This gets so bad that the German people petition the Allies for the right to leave their own homeland and find a new one, a petition that is granted BUT it is entirely up to the Germans to supply and fund themselves. The Germans leave Europe and end up in Siberia (or somewhere equally hostile to human life), suffering horrific losses from starvation, illness and exposure while the Allies declare them a sovereign nation, specifically so they don't have to provide any aid (not to mention New Germany is put under blockade anyway). Eventually, over a period of centuries, New Germany rebuilds itself into a major military power and sends an invasion force to liberate its own homeland.

Now this analogy is by no-means perfect but the Helghast have suffered a lot more then a bruised ego and a lost war in the Killzone timeline. Nor does this completely excuse their actions but in the light of their brutalised past at the hands of the Vektans, can you really blame them for taking revenge on soldiers and civilians alike? Plus this was more a case of showing no mercy to anyone in the heat of battle rather than a campaign of racial annihilation.

- While the Helghast were developing irradiated petrusite weaponry (presumably to be deployed as an advanced chemical weapon), only the Stahl Arms corporation, at the behest of its CEO, was actively working on the planet-killer grade stuff and doing so in secret. When Stahl reveals his plans to use the weapon to exterminate all life on Earth, the Helghast are genuinely horrified.

- As much as I am loathe to admit it, the main characters at the end of Killzone 3 are only guilty of indirect holocaust at best, but the fact that they were fighting after the Vektan government had officially surrendered (as stated by an ISA senior officer earlier in-game) makes them war criminals.

My point is: while the Helghast obviously don't have clean hands in this conflict, they are far from the designated "bad guys".
 

IrisNetwork

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Doesn't seem as entertaining as the Knack review. Might be cause of the rhyme at the end of that or
WE GOT IT WITH THE NEW CONSOLES NOW! I think the jokes are getting kinda stale. So, instead of repeating yourself, how about something else? Like PC EXCLUSIVES!
 

Nathan Rice

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Really, Escapist? An 8-minute advertisement after the video I was here to watch? For your website, which I was already at and already a member of? REALLY?!
 

Fireaxe

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IrisNetwork said:
WE GOT IT WITH THE NEW CONSOLES NOW! I think the jokes are getting kinda stale. So, instead of repeating yourself, how about something else? Like PC EXCLUSIVES!
PCs do not have exclusives, or at least, do not have them in the same way as consoles for two key reasons.

1) A "PC" cannot only be manufactured by a single company in the way of an Xbox One or PS4, so a pc "exclusive" is not exclusive to anything but a loosely defined platform which isn't owned by anyone and therefore is void of any exclusivity inherently.

2) A game currently only on PC can be ported to Wii/Xbox/Ps/Tablet/Phone/Punch-card Reader if there is demand/desire for it by the developer while a console exclusive is tied to the proprietary hardware due to collusive practices by publishers and hardware manufacturers (which is why some people consider console exclusives to be anti-competitive and thus anti-consumer).

Those reasons are why most sensible people won't complain about PC "exclusivity", and there's one more that people often forget (primarily related to Indie games), which is that Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony all control the development tools necessary to develop on their consoles and generally won't give them out easily -- a game like Minecraft wouldn't be able to come into existence on a console because the manufacturers would never have given Markus Persson the tools he needed to develop it (given he didn't have a registered business); when it got big enough it was ported over, but it couldn't have started as an Xbox 360 game or a PS3 game.
 

Lightknight

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So now you have to preface game reviews with disparaging comments about the console they're on? Shouldn't a game review stand on the merits of the game itself unless something is specifically wrong with the environment its in?

I guess you probably can't win. People probably bitched and whined if you didn't say that ridiculous little line but I think bringing in the merits of things that aren't in the game is weak sauce. So I guess now you'll have people like me bitching and whining on the other side. Good luck with that. Good review, I guess I'll go pick it up.

FYI, no single game will ever be worth the entire purchase of a console, not even Skyrim is worth $510 ($400 console + $60 game + $50 online subscription). The combination of several top tier exclusives are though, if they show up. At some point, the scale will tip and then "Killzone + Infamous + The [insert Naughty Dog IPs here] + The Order: 1886 if it's good + Rime + Various Sony Exclusives like Hohokum + Deep Down + all the 3rd party games that are available exclusively + whatever else will be worth getting the console + all of the ps4's features like being a bluray player + the PS4 being a $400 computer capable of playing mainstream games which is cheap for most people considering the alternative" will be worth the purchase. Is there any single game that makes a PC worth purchasing?
 

Shoggoth2588

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Shameless said:
That was surprisingly positive from Yahtzee. I've heard far harsher things about this game from other people.
I wasn't expecting this review to be positive at all...I also wasn't expecting this critique to be one of the most positive Shadow's Fall reviews/critiques I've heard for the game just in general.

Once I do get a PS4, I'll likely end up getting this...of course by that time, this'll be a budget title and likely in a...I dunno, red box maybe...or silver...whatever they use for budget, best-sellers, etc.
 

Lightknight

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0takuMetalhead said:
Kinda surprised that he likes Shadows Fall, after the ranting he did on 2 and 3.
Seems like he said they specifically addressed his concerns from those games.
 

nexus

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Shoggoth2588 said:
Shameless said:
That was surprisingly positive from Yahtzee. I've heard far harsher things about this game from other people.
I wasn't expecting this review to be positive at all...I also wasn't expecting this critique to be one of the most positive Shadow's Fall reviews/critiques I've heard for the game just in general.

Once I do get a PS4, I'll likely end up getting this...of course by that time, this'll be a budget title and likely in a...I dunno, red box maybe...or silver...whatever they use for budget, best-sellers, etc.
Wait until March - April.

Mid-March is basically one of the biggest game seasons in recent memory. When it starts anyway, will be a huge momentum all the way toward the end of the year.

March 18th being a specific date for many multi-plat releases. A few outliers in February too, like Thief.
 

Shadow-Phoenix

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IrisNetwork said:
Doesn't seem as entertaining as the Knack review. Might be cause of the rhyme at the end of that or
WE GOT IT WITH THE NEW CONSOLES NOW! I think the jokes are getting kinda stale. So, instead of repeating yourself, how about something else? Like PC EXCLUSIVES!
I only wish he'd rag on that platform but I'm afraid it would only truly piss off the demographic here because some users on this website find that statement of PC exclusives factually wrong even though they actually do exist in plain sight.

I'll even point out that someone is going to uote me on this because they do love to win at debates no matter what they are about.
 

IrisNetwork

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Fireaxe said:
IrisNetwork said:
WE GOT IT WITH THE NEW CONSOLES NOW! I think the jokes are getting kinda stale. So, instead of repeating yourself, how about something else? Like PC EXCLUSIVES!
PCs do not have exclusives, or at least, do not have them in the same way as consoles for two key reasons.

1) A "PC" cannot only be manufactured by a single company in the way of an Xbox One or PS4, so a pc "exclusive" is not exclusive to anything but a loosely defined platform which isn't owned by anyone and therefore is void of any exclusivity inherently.

2) A game currently only on PC can be ported to Wii/Xbox/Ps/Tablet/Phone/Punch-card Reader if there is demand/desire for it by the developer while a console exclusive is tied to the proprietary hardware due to collusive practices by publishers and hardware manufacturers (which is why some people consider console exclusives to be anti-competitive and thus anti-consumer).

Those reasons are why most sensible people won't complain about PC "exclusivity", and there's one more that people often forget (primarily related to Indie games), which is that Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony all control the development tools necessary to develop on their consoles and generally won't give them out easily -- a game like Minecraft wouldn't be able to come into existence on a console because the manufacturers would never have given Markus Persson the tools he needed to develop it (given he didn't have a registered business); when it got big enough it was ported over, but it couldn't have started as an Xbox 360 game or a PS3 game.
I suppose it isn't exactly considered "exclusive". Still, the new gen bashing has gotten rather stale as Yahtzee's banged on it since last E3. I kinda wish for a Steam rundown.