Zero Punctuation: Metal Gear Solid 4

[TerraMGP]

I find it interesting that you give some things leeway and refuse that leeway to other things for the same reason. MGS is taking place in a fictional modern day. As I said before this whole thing is subjective and the whole idea of a catchall is for the most part flawed. Even the use of 'the force' as a catchall is flawed. I am trying to explain that what you are talking about, at least in terms of science fiction and the science itself, the catchall that it is fiction. Everything is more about this whole idea of what your willing to accept or not. Enders game has the same catchall as every work of science fiction, the simple fact that you have to accept the BS as plausible enough to ignore the flaws in. That is something personal more than a matter of writing. Yes their can be glaringly bad writing where some cop out explanation is used for everything, but that is not Starwars, at least not the extended Starwars, that is not the MGS series, if anything with series like that the problem is the opposite and involves the individuals issues with complexity, not cop-outs.

Just accept it, this problem you have is more YOUR problem with what you are willing to accept rather than a problem with the writing itself. Things are explained and done in a rather good way as long as your willing to accept some flaws as any Sci-fi work will have.

 

[Arntor]

I got the feeling that this review was more of a whine-fest than anything >.> Definitely not Yahtzee's best piece of work...

By the way, why the hell should we be re-introduced to Raiden? Even if he wears a ninja suit and can cut down Gears with a vibrating sword, his face still makes me want to just punch him in the face. And that voice... maybe its just the US version, but he makes me laugh in the worst way every time his mouth opens. In my opinion, any MGS game that has that retarded asschild in it will most certainly always have a certain bad taste in my mouth >.< If what everything's being said goes true, then I'll stick to MGS3:SE as my all-time favorite... there will never be another like the original Snake. Never.


Anyways, I'm not sure if this has been realized or not, but there's been a lot of dirty naming going on here I mean, come on... Solid Snake, Liquid Snake, Solidius Snake, Naked Snake, and now we have Old Snake... Hell, why not just rename Raiden 'Trouser Snake' and finally give him a title that suits his actual level of intelligence?

How about Impotent Snake?

 

[Tempdude0]

And staying in the numbered format goes out the window. Weeeeee!

I even explained why one has more leeway, look at the post you claimed to read. I even laid it out all simple like...You know what, I'm not even going to bother going into a lengthy post, I'm just going to call you an idiot and be done with it.

You can't be bothered to respond to my points, you misunderstand what a catchall is but swing it around like it's your dancing partner, flaws in writing are not covered under suspension of disbelief, another term you seem to not understand, and to top it all off you keep referring to the EXPANDED universe, that's the term, and yet you know nothing of it or you would see how often "force, lol" is used.

Here, I'll even give you an example of that one, something you've yet to do. The Ylasmir, a strange and wonderful weasel looking creature that can block the force...because it can. No explanation is given, it just works. That's "Force, lol" and fall under the catchall. Get it?

The thing that really kills me is that all you would have to do is google some of these terms to get them and you can't even be bothered to do that. Dumb AND lazy, a potent combination.

Oh, and I can sound like a pretentious twat as well, watch:

Just accept it, this problem you have is more YOUR problem with what you are willing to accept. Things are explained and done in a rather mediocre way as long as your willing to accept some flaws as any Sci-fi work will have.


As for Impotent Snake, same problems. "The man is never up to the job." "He keeps folding like a wet blanket." "What a softy." "Hey look, he's fallen and can't get up."...Aw, I feel even worse now. Shower, I need a shower!

 

[Arntor]

Lightning Snake may work because I figured impotency has already been covered by "Old Snake". It's a subtle nod to premature ejaculation without drawing too much attention. 'Course, there are probably better words with the emphasis on speed, but I can't be arsed to find them right now.


I just like beating this dead horse.

 

[Tempdude0]

No, I actually like that one. It only lends itself to a few puns and works fairly well for what he was. "Always enthusiastic, but burns out too fast." "He can never go the distance." "It's the same every time, he gets going then two minutes later BAM!, he's on the floor and out cold."

And I'll take this dead horse beating over the "discussion" with whatsherface up there, though both are tantamount to the same thing...Well, at least this is entertaining.

 

[Tempdude0]

Ah crap, double post...Anyone know how to delete these things?

 

[TerraMGP]

Your right, I know nothing, I am not going into a SW D20 game set in the NJO era tomorrow, I just don't understand you, its not that your totally wrong and don't understand what I am trying to say. I am responding your just ignoring me, and I don't understand what the point of arguing is if your going to ignore me. You insult me just as much, you have been just as pretentious if not MORESO from the very beginning and your text walls frankly move around in circles. The Force is not a catchall in the expanded universe, its simply expanded upon. If you can't understand the difference then its no wonder you get confused so easily.

But lets get back to the core of the issue ok? Point out these freaking flaws in the writing ok? Point to where it is in the series that you think that actual flaws rest. Is it in the complexity? is it in the 'fluff?' what is it? Frankly from the looks of it your splitting hairs. Heck your making my point for me "It doesn't explain why the Ylasmir block the force' well ok fine, Ill grant you that if you grant me that the MGS series spends quite a bit of time making SURE you understand how things are supposed to work. So with starwars your complaint is that you don't get enough fluff, with MGS its that you get too much. That sounds more like a personal issue with your ability to accept what is presented to you because its too much or too little rather than any inherent problem with the writing. You have decided that 'this much information is acceptable, too much more and its overkill too much less and its just a catchall cop out'.

I find it funny that your trying to peg the whole pretentious thing on me, and even funnier that your trying to tell a SW fangirl she knows nothing about the expanded universe. But it doesn't matter. You just come here to post some confused psudo-intellectual drivel and make yourself feel like a big man anyways.

What really kills me is that whole phrase about accepting mediocre explanations for science fiction when your accusing me of being pretentious. You have no idea what your saying anymore, its just a thin veil to try and cover up the fact that you don't like the writing and you don't get it so it must be bad.

 

[GojiraX]

The second I played this game, I thought "If Yahtzee ever reviews this he's just going to piss all over it." So I'm truly shocked that he called the characters well-rounded.

As for the story being poor, if by "poor" he means "verbose to a tiresome degree" then huzzah. If he means "boring dull nonsense" then pfeh. Looking past the endless explanations and loose story threads being spun together, at least the core of every scene kept me interested in what was happening and maintained that there was a purpose to the whole thing.

 

[Arntor]

"It's the same every time, he gets going then two minutes later BAM! He's on the floor and out cold."

I love this one because I can imagine this in-game as two guards are having idle conversation with each other after they've been alerted about an intruder.

Some female NPC
"He came really quickly through the gates and then disappeared!"

 

[Tempdude0]

Uh, I talk about what you've said point by point as they come up through reading your overly long diatribes. I fail to see the "ignoring" in that. Oh, so you're going to grant me something that was already established, how big of you. Do go on...Though the force wasn't expanded upon, it was used as a deus ex machina catchall in certain series.

...You seem to be misunderstanding "fluff" fluff is extra information not related to core concepts integral to a series. It serves to flesh out characters and the world around them. It frequently is in no way related to plot of the game/book, but is there as an attempt to make the reader/game-player forget that their reading about/dealing with fictional characters. Otakons love of anime is fluff, Snakes military training is not. Medics odd tendancy to know about movies is fluff, Volgin being a pervert is not, wich is surprising. You throw around terms that I don't believe you fully understand.

So fangirl, give me solid example from the universe you so love. I did it and I'm only a fan in a few cases. References people, references. Saying something doesn't make it so. Use actual examples in your argument and I won't think so little of you.

Yeah, pseudo-intellectual is a great term. It means you don't get what I'm saying. It means that my language, rather unrefined because I don't feel like talking in a formal matter, is beyond your comprehension. This is YOUR problem, not mine. I may be overly verbose at times just like the Metal Gear Series, but I never claimed to be succinct. In fact, I've referred to all my responces as "rants" which by definition are long winded.

...And once again, I get the writing. It's just not good. It's not punchy, it's not insightful, it's not the pinnacle of writing...I referenced the writer of "Lady Chatterley's Lover" what more do you want in regards to my level of comprehension? Do you want to know I read War and Peace? What will convince her highness of my ability to "get" the writing, aside from having to LIKE it?

Also, keep in mind my comprehension is such that I can keep pace with even the most nonsensical thing you've said, and the biggest indicator that I know what I'm talking about and that you don't is that I've yet to fall back on terms like "pseudo-intellectual" or to ignore the parts of your argument I can't actually answer. There aren't any I can't, but that's not the point. I get your arguments, they just lack substance, much like the game you love so much.

Furthermore, I stated earlier that I loved, LOVED Metal Gear Solid 3. Now, even assuming that as a baseline for what I can understand, your ravings don't even compare to Kojimas writing. He may be a talkative bastard and I may not like all his works, but you hold no candle to him even on his worst days.

And once again you fail to address my points. I'm even setting them up in easy to respond format and you STILL can't do it. I even gave you an itemized list for gods sakes.




To Indigo_Dingo, wasn't the the character in escape from New York? Oh, and I apologize for earlier hostilities. I'm more irked at Terra than you. You managed to keep a more level head throughout the conversation. I still don't think you get what I was talking about, but I'm going to let that slide because you've been, if nothing else, rather polite.

As for the "fiction" aspect, of course all fiction is set apart from reality. It's the extent to which they're set apart that's the issue. If set too close, Supermen should not be showing up and if set too far nothing need be explained realistically because of so alien a world. In the case of things like MGS, CSI, and Law and Order, we must make allowances for the sake of plot and entertainment. This only extends so far. As an example, aliens shouldn't be showing up in the MGS series. I guess if it was done well enough I could run with it, but that's be one hell of a feat of writing. In CSI, none of the group should suddenly be able to go "punisher" on crooks without ramifications. This is what I was ranting about earlier.




As to Arntor, I like that line...Personally, I was going for the scenes where he gets "killed" in each game, like with the narrator doing a voice over, but I enjoy your example.

 

[shatnershaman]

OMFG! People don't like it when someone insults what they like! What next?! Needing food to live!

 

[TerraMGP]

Yes, its fiction, the argument that is raging right now is if this fiction is bad because of the loopholes. Its going to have them, I am simply arguing that while bad enough ones can break immersion in a story for the most part the writing is what draws in the reader regardless of the loopholes, causing the reader to fill in the 'if this is true' blanks mentally by disregarding them or making assumptions. That is every science fiction story, and indeed most fiction stories. These 'catchalls' are simply a way of saying a copout excuse for why something works the way it does but in every work of fiction things work diffrenlty in real life and we can simply think of things as having bigger or smaller catchalls and more or less believable ones. That is why I am saying that it is not BAD writing to, for example, have an animal that blocks the force but nobody knows why. Maybe they don't know why. Maybe nobody has had a chance to get ahold of one long enough to dissect it or perhaps they have found nothing to warrant why, but it does. Now is it bad writing because "oh now we can't use the force" or perhaps is it better to assume that the reason is not given because they don't know or its not important to the story and they move on which is honeslty what people say MGS should do.

Thats actually a really good way to make my point. people are complaining about copout answers on the one hand, and then to the best of my knowledge answers that are over explained on the other. Its kind of a Goldielocks scenario and that is far more personal than anything else. Now if people have actual 'catchalls' within the MGS story such as the use of nano for all sorts of diffrent things, well then its all a matter of weather the person is willing to accept that maybe they play a major part or if they just want to think its a BS answer. I'm not saying writing can't be objective on some levels, in fact it has to. However Bad writing would be like Master chief who, at least in the games, shows little emotional depth and has a massive amount of obvious plot device on his side with nothing to distract from that fact.The fact that an in-game or in-story universe works on diffrent principals from our own is part of why it is fiction. I really just think its a matter of a persons tolerance for light or heavy fluff being translated into how good they consider the overall writing.

and no, your not setting up your points well, your blathering on in cricles.

And no, you don't have to LIKE the writing. You can hate writing and still accept that its not bad. Your not making a case for why the MGS series has bad writing, nobody has. All they have done is complained that it gives them what they feel is too much information which is not in itself bad writing, and on top of that all you have done is talk about catchalls, talked about problems with your inability to 'buy' the setting which you could simply accept is more personal than anything. You don't like it, thats fine, but you have made no case for why it is outright bad.

 

[TerraMGP]

Ok lets just clear up the clutter and make this 'punchy' as you seem to like. What, besides the amount of talking, is it that you find WRONG with the writing? what is wrong wit the story or the way it is presented OTHER than the length at which things are presented?

Also the more I look at it the more I start to think it may not be as much a matter of hypocrisy on Yatzees part as much as the fact that he simply does not like to review games he does not want to play anyways and so just kinda cops out waiting for games he wants to get his hands on.

 

[shatnershaman]

New rule. No-one can say Yahtzee was spot on unless they've played the damn game.

Yahtzee was spot on the negatives (Beat in one sitting (good ole red bull)) like the cutscenes and cumbersome controls. Looks damn good though and pretty decent fun I just found no replay value.

 

[shatnershaman]

Ok lets just clear up the clutter and make this 'punchy' as you seem to like. What, besides the amount of talking, is it that you find WRONG with the writing? what is wrong wit the story or the way it is presented OTHER than the length at which things are presented?

How ridiculous it is. (Halo is ridiculous too thats why I skip the cutscenes in both.)

 

[TerraMGP]

That tells me nothing. You think its Ridiculous, you have already said your not a fan of fiction, that again is something subjective, its personal. That doesn't make it bad writing it just means you find it ridiculous because it doesn't SEEM to mesh up with our reality as much.

 

[shatnershaman]

That tells me nothing. You think its Ridiculous, you have already said your not a fan of fiction, that again is something subjective, its personal. That doesn't make it bad writing it just means you find it ridiculous because it doesn't SEEM to mesh up with our reality as much.

Oh you mean wrong as in quality of writing ah I though you meant wrong story wise. Sorry. (It is good writing in that way.)

 

[TerraMGP]

Yes, people are arguing the writing quality more right now. They are not talking about bad story just bad writing, and I don't see it. The only complaint that I have seen so far that I can even understand is that its not 'punchy' to which I simply say that is part of personal preference more than anything, Its subjective.

 

[Hawaiigm]

I've never played MGS4, but almost every issue brought up was one that I had with MGS3, so I doubt much has changed.

This just in. Brawl Still shit.

 

[TerraMGP]

Ok, fine you chimed in with your opinion, just keep the whole thing with brawl out of it. You want to argue about that little gem of chaos management do it in the appropriate review thread dagnabbit.