Zero Punctuation: Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes - $40 Demo

Yahtzee Croshaw

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Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes - $40 Demo

This week, Zero Punctuation reviews Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes.

Watch Video
 

Evonisia

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Lenny(ie?) was supposed to be likeable? I spent the whole book (and the film) wishing he would die horribly.

Still, this gives me slight hope for MGSV, which I may pick up when it's actually out, and not a glorified demo.
 

dragongit

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Well... it could have been more. It was gonna be 40 USD, but they decided to lower it by 10 bucks at the last minute because paying 75% of the game's price for 10% of the experience would have been too far. It's solid gameplay, but it's just a means to release something for the Japanese PS4 owners near their launch, and as far as I can suspect a means to pay off their new expensive engine.
 

SNCommand

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Well, I'm guessing Metal Gear Solid V: Phantom Pain will likely include Ground Zero as well so no point in buying it really, if not it will probably be a lot cheaper than it is now
 

04whim

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I would think that having an unlockable audiotape 'reward' of the villain
having a young girl gangraped
is more than "leaning on the fence of being weird a little too hard". That's more like bulldozing the fence and jumping on it with clodhoppers.
 

nima55

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The only way that bomb-gut thing sounds like it could be any worse is if they put it in her uterus.
 

Erttheking

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nima55 said:
The only way that bomb-gut thing sounds like it could be any worse is if they put it in her uterus.
Oh don't worry, they didn't. They just put the second one in her vagina...no I am not making this up, I wish to Christ that I was.
 

Thaluikhain

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nima55 said:
The only way that bomb-gut thing sounds like it could be any worse is if they put it in her uterus.
Yeah, I was wondering if "guts" was supposed to mean that.
 

SNCommand

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erttheking said:
nima55 said:
The only way that bomb-gut thing sounds like it could be any worse is if they put it in her uterus.
Oh don't worry, they didn't. They just put the second one in her vagina...no I am not making this up, I wish to Christ that I was.
It's a snuke
 

nima55

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erttheking said:
nima55 said:
The only way that bomb-gut thing sounds like it could be any worse is if they put it in her uterus.
Oh don't worry, they didn't. They just put the second one in her vagina...no I am not making this up, I wish to Christ that I was.
Oh... Well that is just... SUPER not ok. Like seriously, that is just whole new unexplored levels of not ok, so many that boggle the mind. It makes me look at the whole MGS franchise with a little bit of not ok.
 

Transdude1996

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erttheking said:
nima55 said:
The only way that bomb-gut thing sounds like it could be any worse is if they put it in her uterus.
Oh don't worry, they didn't. They just put the second one in her vagina...no I am not making this up, I wish to Christ that I was.
Trying to who's the sickest villian now, Mr. Skullface from MGS5, or the villain in Oldboy for
making the protagonist have sex with his daughter
.
 

The Last Melon

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04whim said:
I would think that having an unloackable audiotape 'reward' of the villain having a young girl gangraped is more than "leaning on the fence of being weird a little too hard". That's more like bulldozing the fence and jumping on it with clodhoppers.
Say what now?

I almost didn't believe the bit Yahtzee said about the bomb surgery and had to verify it on YouTube for myself, and now you're telling me there's a gangrape? What the hell is going on in this crazy-ass game?
 

Taunta

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04whim said:
I would think that having an unloackable audiotape 'reward' of the villain having a young girl gangraped is more than "leaning on the fence of being weird a little too hard". That's more like bulldozing the fence and jumping on it with clodhoppers.
erttheking said:
nima55 said:
The only way that bomb-gut thing sounds like it could be any worse is if they put it in her uterus.
Oh don't worry, they didn't. They just put the second one in her vagina...no I am not making this up, I wish to Christ that I was.
Jesus, that just..."makes me extremely uncomfortable" is an understatement.

Everyone talking about this game so far has only mentioned the "40 dollar demo" thing. I'm not sure which is a worse problem, honestly.
 

Tireseas_v1legacy

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Transdude1996 said:
erttheking said:
nima55 said:
The only way that bomb-gut thing sounds like it could be any worse is if they put it in her uterus.
Oh don't worry, they didn't. They just put the second one in her vagina...no I am not making this up, I wish to Christ that I was.
Trying to who's the sickest villian now, Mr. Skullface from MGS5, or the villain in Oldboy for
making the protagonist have sex with his daughter
.
I distinctly remember there being a manga where an evil (albeit lighthearted) queen had a dinner with a feudal lord and served him a well-made hamburger steak, only to reveal that that hamburger steak was made from the lord's son whom she had kept as a political ransom.

Wait, there's two MGSV games?
 

04whim

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Say what now?

I almost didn't believe the bit Yahtzee said about the bomb surgery and had to verify it on YouTube for myself, and now you're telling me there's a gangrape? What the hell is going on in this crazy-ass game?
Kojima's a hack writer trying to be edgy. And then, to fit in with the tone of all this, there's literally an in game version of him winking at the camera.
 

Steve2911

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Evonisia said:
Lenny(ie?) was supposed to be likeable? I spent the whole book (and the film) wishing he would die horribly.
That's sort of terrifying. Please don't kill your kids should you ever have any.

Anyway I pretty much agree with this. It's a fantastic game, and is one of the first games to make stealth feel genuinely organic rather than like a series of hiding places and blind guards. It's just a shame that Konami couldn't resist the temptation to charge for it.

I get the feeling that they put pressure on Kojima Productions to get the game out as quickly as possible (Konami's been bleeding cash for years now and MGS is pretty much its last garunteed payday) and they had to reach a comprimise to make sure the main game could keep the development time and budget it needed to be good.

Either way I'm god damn excited for The Phantom Pain now.
 

Neurotic Void Melody

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This being a metal gear game and me having far too little stealth action lately, meant that i had no choice but to hand over my precious money for this. I knew what i was doing and i do feel ashamed just like the moment my landlord rises my rent because i don't tickle his love spuds.
Is kojami going to ever acknowledge what a rip off this is? Because i keep expecting some sort of compensation, at least money off the full game or something. Luckily i got the digital download on 360 so it was 20£. Like fck am i getting the current gen version for more!
 

orangeapples

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dragongit said:
Well... it could have been more. It was gonna be 40 USD, but they decided to lower it by 10 bucks at the last minute because paying 75% of the game's price for 10% of the experience would have been too far. It's solid gameplay, but it's just a means to release something for the Japanese PS4 owners near their launch, and as far as I can suspect a means to pay off their new expensive engine.
I don't think Australia got the memo about changing the price. It happens a lot over there.
 

Muspelheim

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Dear me, I must be a dreadful softie in the greater scheme of things, considering I got too uncomfortable with the series all the way back in Snake Eater.

Are we sure Kojima doesn't operate out of some kind of home?
 

CarlsonAndPeeters

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The Gentleman said:
I distinctly remember there being a manga where an evil (albeit lighthearted) queen had a dinner with a feudal lord and served him a well-made hamburger steak, only to reveal that that hamburger steak was made from the lord's son whom she had kept as a political ransom.
The "making a parent eat their child" plot actually dates back to Titus Andronicus, one of Shakespeare's earlier plays. Not sure if it had ever been used before then, but we've gotten a lot of great adaptations and parodies since then.

On the topic of MGSV: wow this is messed up. I was never planning on playing it, but the fact that the game, already overpriced and sinister in and of itself, is so violent toward women just makes me want to steer clear forever.
 

mrm5561

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Xsjadoblayde said:
This being a metal gear game and me having far too little stealth action lately, meant that i had no choice but to hand over my precious money for this. I knew what i was doing and i do feel ashamed just like the moment my landlord rises my rent because i don't tickle his love spuds.
Is kojami going to ever acknowledge what a rip off this is? Because i keep expecting some sort of compensation, at least money off the full game or something. Luckily i got the digital download on 360 so it was 20£. Like fck am i getting the current gen version for more!
im in the same boat as you. being a metal gear fan i had to play it the day it came out, and an hour later i felt like i was the one having a bomb pulled out of me. as for kojami admitting its a rip off he actually went on record saying you can get a hundred hours out of playing it over and over again.... because you apparently can't do that with every game ever made. hell the intro mission in mgs2 took twice as long to beat as their new game 2 console generations later
 

Ishal

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erttheking said:
nima55 said:
The only way that bomb-gut thing sounds like it could be any worse is if they put it in her uterus.
Oh don't worry, they didn't. They just put the second one in her vagina...no I am not making this up, I wish to Christ that I was.
I'm not one to go on about triggers and overly sensitive things in games, but that's kinda squick. Shock entertainment value is a valid form of expression. But I thought Metal Gear was supposed to be deep, where most things had a purpose, no matter how shitty. What is the purpose here?
 

Thaluikhain

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erttheking said:
nima55 said:
The only way that bomb-gut thing sounds like it could be any worse is if they put it in her uterus.
Oh don't worry, they didn't. They just put the second one in her vagina...no I am not making this up, I wish to Christ that I was.
Just watched the cutscene, and she says "There's another...in my..." and doesn't specify as far as I can see. (Also, 24 mins of cutscenes)

And...well, having a bomb in your vagina wouldn't be fun, but at least you wouldn't have to be cut open to get it out.
 

thetenet

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It is a very dark game in some parts, which reinforces the inconsistency problem of the franchise as a whole. That being said, I liked the game, ignoring the price (which it was lower to me in absolute terms since the parallel dollar in Argentina absorbed most of the blow), MGS is one of the franchises in the triple A world that tries to speak of real world problems within the context of its own narrative,it brought up electronic surveillance way before Snowden in MGS2, child soldiers exist all over the world and when they get captured no one gives them any special treatment because of their age.

What other game series dares to bring such things to the forefront? I mean just look at Spec Ops The Line it brought PTSD and civilian killings to the game and hardly anyone played it. This is why I still applaud the MGS series and I will play the Phantom Pain the day it comes out.
 

Scars Unseen

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Taunta said:
04whim said:
I would think that having an unloackable audiotape 'reward' of the villain having a young girl gangraped is more than "leaning on the fence of being weird a little too hard". That's more like bulldozing the fence and jumping on it with clodhoppers.
erttheking said:
nima55 said:
The only way that bomb-gut thing sounds like it could be any worse is if they put it in her uterus.
Oh don't worry, they didn't. They just put the second one in her vagina...no I am not making this up, I wish to Christ that I was.
Jesus, that just..."makes me extremely uncomfortable" is an understatement.
Imagine how she felt.

.
..
...
....
probably not good.
 

BloodRed Pixel

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30 minutes? I think even Battle of Los Angeles is longer.

"Arranging dead Bodies in the form of a Swastika" that never occured to me to do in game, until now...
 

maxben

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The Gentleman said:
Transdude1996 said:
erttheking said:
nima55 said:
The only way that bomb-gut thing sounds like it could be any worse is if they put it in her uterus.
Oh don't worry, they didn't. They just put the second one in her vagina...no I am not making this up, I wish to Christ that I was.
Trying to who's the sickest villian now, Mr. Skullface from MGS5, or the villain in Oldboy for
making the protagonist have sex with his daughter
.
I distinctly remember there being a manga where an evil (albeit lighthearted) queen had a dinner with a feudal lord and served him a well-made hamburger steak, only to reveal that that hamburger steak was made from the lord's son whom she had kept as a political ransom.

Wait, there's two MGSV games?
Better yet there is the Shakespeare play were two guys rape a girl by order of their mom and cut off her hands and tongue, and later when her dad finds out he invites the boys' mom to dinner only to reveal that the pie she's been eating is made up of her two dead sons. Ah Shakespeare, what literary genius you are!
 

Under_your_bed

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Evonisia said:
Lenny(ie?) was supposed to be likeable? I spent the whole book (and the film) wishing he would die horribly.

Still, this gives me slight hope for MGSV, which I may pick up when it's actually out, and not a glorified demo.
Heh. That takes me back to the start of High School where we had to study "Of Mice and Men" in English. I'll never forget that someone wrote

GEORGE SHOOTS LENNY

on the first page of their book. I'm still laughing about that today.
 

Grach

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I always got the feel that Kojima writes in that particular "stupid anime" sort of way. Having played Revengeance I frankly couldn't help but giggle and cheer at it's attempts at seriousness. It just comes across so very campy that it ends up being hilarious.

"oh no kids brains are getting hijacked to build drones!"
"holy shit remove the pain blockers on my implants itll make me fight gooder!"
"BLAH BLAH BLAH MEMETIC THEORY BLAH BLAH BLAH DODGE THIS BUILDING"
To which Raiden answers, after the villian's defeat:
"YOUR MEMES ARE GOING TO BE FORGOTTEN" in a Batman voice.

God of Path said:
BRB annexing Sudetenland.
I think you mean Suderland.
 

Neurotic Void Melody

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mrm5561 said:
Xsjadoblayde said:
This being a metal gear game and me having far too little stealth action lately, meant that i had no choice but to hand over my precious money for this. I knew what i was doing and i do feel ashamed just like the moment my landlord rises my rent because i don't tickle his love spuds.
Is kojami going to ever acknowledge what a rip off this is? Because i keep expecting some sort of compensation, at least money off the full game or something. Luckily i got the digital download on 360 so it was 20£. Like fck am i getting the current gen version for more!
im in the same boat as you. being a metal gear fan i had to play it the day it came out, and an hour later i felt like i was the one having a bomb pulled out of me. as for kojami admitting its a rip off he actually went on record saying you can get a hundred hours out of playing it over and over again.... because you apparently can't do that with every game ever made. hell the intro mission in mgs2 took twice as long to beat as their new game 2 console generations later
Wow. He said that? Who wants to be playing 100 hours of the same level? Granted, fighting games can perhaps get away with this. Though the players who prefer that style of play always know what to expect. Personally, i always try and do things as stealthily as possible, if i go the rambo/action route, it's usually because i screwed up...not because i wanted to play it all again.
 

Stevepinto3

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04whim said:
I would think that having an unlockable audiotape 'reward' of the villain
having a young girl gangraped
is more than "leaning on the fence of being weird a little too hard". That's more like bulldozing the fence and jumping on it with clodhoppers.
Nope. Nope this can't be real. This can't be-*googles it*

...

Fucking hell.

And on top of that apparently you can examine her underwear-clad, scarred body during a cutscene? Really? Is there a single indulgent impulse Metal Gear won't jump into with both feet? Because this has crossed the line to being just completely not cool.
 

Something Amyss

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Evonisia said:
Lenny(ie?) was supposed to be likeable? I spent the whole book (and the film) wishing he would die horribly.
Which, oddly enough, would put it into my comparison of the Metal Gear series.

dragongit said:
Well... it could have been more. It was gonna be 40 USD, but they decided to lower it by 10 bucks at the last minute because paying 75% of the game's price for 10% of the experience would have been too far. It's solid gameplay, but it's just a means to release something for the Japanese PS4 owners near their launch, and as far as I can suspect a means to pay off their new expensive engine.
Plus, if you put it on sale, people will buy it because screw logic, it's on sale.

"You bought clams from Al's Pancake World?"
"We had a coupon."

nima55 said:
Oh... Well that is just... SUPER not ok. Like seriously, that is just whole new unexplored levels of not ok, so many that boggle the mind. It makes me look at the whole MGS franchise with a little bit of not ok.
This is barely new ground for MGS. It's not even particularly envelope pushing, as prior threads on this have illustrated. Like, I get why people are uncomfortable. What I don't get is why this retroactively taints a series that's always been about two steps from tentacle rape.

04whim said:
Kojima's a hack writer trying to be edgy.
And brilliant. And deep. He's basically the end result of a really shitty indie dev given a massive budget and constant ego stroking from a fanbase who will defend the premise of paying 40 bucks for an hour of gameplay because Kojima did it, even though a couple years ago the concept of such a paid demo was floated by (EA? Activision? I forget which, they're so similar in most respects) and people lost their bloody minds. Not to mention Dead Rising, which was only five bucks.

Next up: Phantom Pain will charge for bullets and Kojima's fans will defend the practice so we can literally go back and look and see which of them screamed when the same idea was floated by John Rikki Tiki Tavi.

thaluikhain said:
And...well, having a bomb in your vagina wouldn't be fun, but at least you wouldn't have to be cut open to get it out.
Knowing Kojima, I'm pretty sure the method by which it would be introduced would be worse than being opened up surgically.

As such....

Scars Unseen said:
Imagine how she felt.

In short, I'd really rather not.
 

RA92

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Scars Unseen said:
Imagine how she felt.

.
..
...
....
probably not good.
Imagine how it will feel when tons of MGS fanboys are going to swarm on us, hand wave it all away and say sexism and misogyny exists only in our own mind.
 

Tireseas_v1legacy

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CarlsonAndPeeters said:
The "making a parent eat their child" plot actually dates back to Titus Andronicus, one of Shakespeare's earlier plays. Not sure if it had ever been used before then, but we've gotten a lot of great adaptations and parodies since then.
maxben said:
Better yet there is the Shakespeare play were two guys rape a girl by order of their mom and cut off her hands and tongue, and later when her dad finds out he invites the boys' mom to dinner only to reveal that the pie she's been eating is made up of her two dead sons. Ah Shakespeare, what literary genius you are!
See kids: Shakespeare was the Ridley Scott of his time.[footnote]Although I still prefer Marlow, the Martin Scorsese of Shakespere's time.[/footnote] Now do you think literature class is boring?
 

The Last Melon

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Stevepinto3 said:
04whim said:
I would think that having an unlockable audiotape 'reward' of the villain
having a young girl gangraped
is more than "leaning on the fence of being weird a little too hard". That's more like bulldozing the fence and jumping on it with clodhoppers.
Nope. Nope this can't be real. This can't be-*googles it*

...

Fucking hell.

And on top of that apparently you can examine her underwear-clad, scarred body during a cutscene? Really? Is there a single indulgent impulse Metal Gear won't jump into with both feet? Because this has crossed the line to being just completely not cool.
You know what's weird, too? Ubisoft posts a trailer implying Laura Croft is about to be sexually assaulted and the gaming world goes nuts, but this stuff apparently gets by with a free pass? How the hell does this thinking work?
 

nima55

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Zachary Amaranth said:
nima55 said:
Oh... Well that is just... SUPER not ok. Like seriously, that is just whole new unexplored levels of not ok, so many that boggle the mind. It makes me look at the whole MGS franchise with a little bit of not ok.
This is barely new ground for MGS. It's not even particularly envelope pushing, as prior threads on this have illustrated. Like, I get why people are uncomfortable. What I don't get is why this retroactively taints a series that's always been about two steps from tentacle rape.
Even if the series had a history of skirting the line, this still crosses the line. Just... all of my nope.
 

04whim

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Zachary Amaranth said:
He's basically the end result of a really shitty indie dev given a massive budget and constant ego stroking from a fanbase who will defend the premise of paying 40 bucks for an hour of gameplay because Kojima did it
I was watching an episode of Let's Drown Out the other day, Yahtzee's let's play series on YouTube with Gabriel, and they mentioned that one of the reasons the Star Wars prequels were so bad is because no one dared to challenge Lucas' decisions by that stage and the only reason the original trilogy came out well was because Lucas wasn't given complete unquestioned control on the project. I feel like Kojima's going much the same route.
 

Hutzpah Chicken

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Annex the Sudetenland? For the Glorious PC Master Race, it shall be done mein Fuhrer. Erhm, Mr. President.
 

flying_whimsy

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04whim said:
I watched that let's drown out too and was thinking the same thing when I was watching this video.

OT: This reminds me a lot of when the first Zone of the Enders came out and everyone I knew was interested in it only for the MGS2 demo. I didn't care about the demo and was a bit miffed when I tried to talk to people about ZoE only to hear that they hadn't bothered playing it. It seems this time they decided to skip releasing an entirely new game and just package the demo.

And that bomb thing creeps me out; I knew the series was a bit out there but that just seems both gratuitous and well, evil.
 

geldonyetich

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Sounds to me like this whole, "We had you extract a bomb from a girl's guts only to have to insufficient time to extract another one from her nether region which then explodes - and oh by the way the bonus feature is hearing her being gang raped" is basically what happens when the developers thought to themselves, "We want to be dark and edgy, but people have the Internet and sensationalist news now, so that sets the bar rather high." Alright, fair enough, if being edgy to you is that important.

I'm more bothered by the duration. Half an hour. Really? Literally half an hour for a $60 AAA PS4 release? I'm not even sure that would be worth the price of the GameFly subscription to rent it.

Researching this a bit, not really a half-hour [http://www.howlongtobeat.com/game.php?id=17291], but it's possible to beat the game inside ten minutes if you know what you're doing, and it might take around 13 1/2 hours if you're a completionist. Still, not a real big bang for my buck there.
 

synobal

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The problem with me isn't that Kojima does weird and terrible things to people in his video games. Hell I've read books where awful shit happens and if Video games are art we have to be given the same sort of freedom. My problem is it's shit writing.

2 dimensional characters, a weak plot, poor motivation and no consistency at all in tone means it cant' get away with what something good could. A good book wtih gangrape and a bomb in someones vagina is still good and often can be better for going so dark. Something shit is still shit no matter how much edgy stuff it throws out there. Indeed it often seems worse for it.
 
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SNCommand said:
erttheking said:
nima55 said:
The only way that bomb-gut thing sounds like it could be any worse is if they put it in her uterus.
Oh don't worry, they didn't. They just put the second one in her vagina...no I am not making this up, I wish to Christ that I was.
It's a snuke
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!
nima55 said:
erttheking said:
nima55 said:
The only way that bomb-gut thing sounds like it could be any worse is if they put it in her uterus.
Oh don't worry, they didn't. They just put the second one in her vagina...no I am not making this up, I wish to Christ that I was.
Oh... Well that is just... SUPER not ok. Like seriously, that is just whole new unexplored levels of not ok, so many that boggle the mind. It makes me look at the whole MGS franchise with a little bit of not ok.

I don't even think the stuff in this game is OK in Japan...
 

Mathak

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04whim said:
Kojima's a hack writer trying to be edgy.
I suspect Mark Millar has secretly murdered Kojima and is now wearing his face Hannibal Lecter-style. This is exactly his type of EDGY EDGINESS. Like, it could have been Nemesis: The Video Game.
 

Yahtzee Croshaw

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The Gentleman said:
See kids: Shakespeare was the Ridley Scott of his time. Now do you think literature class is boring?
Ridley Scott's kinda shitty. Alien was good and Blade Runner had some very nice visuals, but that's about it. Black Hawk Down, Robin Hood, Promotheus, Hannibal, Kingdom of Heaven and GI Jane were all pretty fucking terrible.

I haven't read Shakespeare, but he's atleast supposed to be pretty good atleast, no?

Ont: Jesus Christ, the stuff I read about this fuckin game, holy shit. This is just, too much. Whp the fuck writes this shit?
 

Roofstone

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I am okay with dark, the horrible scenes was not a deal breaker for me on their own, but they are so sexualised that it just makes me sick.

And this is metal gear, the game with a biseuxal vampire that blocks bullets by dancing, photosynthetic snipers and cyborg ninjas! It should be camp and over the top and funny as hell. Not.. This!

The sad thing is that I get what he was going for. Metal gears message always was that war is hell and that it ruins lifes.. But geez! I am playing games to be entertained, not cry myself to sleep!

The road between dark and horribly sick and gut wrenching is usually very long, though it becomes a interestingly short leap in Kojimas hands. One could say he skipped entire sections of the morality meter. Going straight from "Ooh, edgy" too "AHH! Dig out my eyes!".

The Last Melon said:
Say what now?

I almost didn't believe the bit Yahtzee said about the bomb surgery and had to verify it on YouTube for myself, and now you're telling me there's a gangrape? What the hell is going on in this crazy-ass game?
Don't forget the child rape, as in forcing a 13 year old boy to rape his 25 year old friend.

Then mentally crushing them both to do it willingly.

Then more rape. And a bit more, and more..

And so on and so on.
 

Tireseas_v1legacy

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Sep 28, 2009
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SecretNegative said:
The Gentleman said:
See kids: Shakespeare was the Ridley Scott of his time. Now do you think literature class is boring?
Ridley Scott's kinda shitty. Alien was good and Blade Runner had some very nice visuals, but that's about it. Black Hawk Down, Robin Hood, Promotheus, Hannibal, Kingdom of Heaven and GI Jane were all pretty fucking terrible.
No love for Gladiator, Themla and Louis, or Legend?
I haven't read Shakespeare, but he's atleast supposed to be pretty good atleast, no?
He's pretty good. A nice balance of clean and dirty to make it accessible to all the classes.

And Ridley Scott's filmography is a good way to describe Shakespeare's set of works: everyone has their favorites, and a lot of people will debate which is superior to the others and which ones were outright terrible, but you look in the grand scheme of things and think, "you know, all of them were pretty damn good, even if I didn't like this one or this one."
 

aba1

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nima55 said:
erttheking said:
nima55 said:
The only way that bomb-gut thing sounds like it could be any worse is if they put it in her uterus.
Oh don't worry, they didn't. They just put the second one in her vagina...no I am not making this up, I wish to Christ that I was.
Oh... Well that is just... SUPER not ok. Like seriously, that is just whole new unexplored levels of not ok, so many that boggle the mind. It makes me look at the whole MGS franchise with a little bit of not ok.
I think that was the point. It was supposed to be very much so not ok to drive home just how far the antagonists are willing to go. Also it is worth pointing out that it might not have been in her vagina you don't actually see where they pull it out from so it could have been her but or even sewn into her ass cheeks for all we know. It never actually showed or specified just people assumed.
 

Erttheking

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The Last Melon said:
Stevepinto3 said:
04whim said:
I would think that having an unlockable audiotape 'reward' of the villain
having a young girl gangraped
is more than "leaning on the fence of being weird a little too hard". That's more like bulldozing the fence and jumping on it with clodhoppers.
Nope. Nope this can't be real. This can't be-*googles it*

...

Fucking hell.

And on top of that apparently you can examine her underwear-clad, scarred body during a cutscene? Really? Is there a single indulgent impulse Metal Gear won't jump into with both feet? Because this has crossed the line to being just completely not cool.
You know what's weird, too? Ubisoft posts a trailer implying Laura Croft is about to be sexually assaulted and the gaming world goes nuts, but this stuff apparently gets by with a free pass? How the hell does this thinking work?
The same reason PETA went nuts over Assassin's Creed 4 for letting you whale every once in awhile while they let Far Cry 3 go despite the fact that half of the progression in that game is obtained through animal skins, publicity, or lack thereof.

Plus, I think a lot of people are being turned off of Ground Zero because of the price tag for the short length.
 

Lyvric

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Wow, the price for the demo and the content are both wrong. I guess this is why I only played the very first and second MGS games. Just for running around in a cardboard box in a super secret base to see peoples ?s and !s.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Guys tell me if I'm in the minority here, but I ONLY played the 2nd Metal Gear game, where you're Snake for one mission on a boat and then you're the Fulgrim wannnabe for the rest of the game.
These games are so super goofy, they're virtually unplayable. They are to games what Dr.Who is to scifi; if the writers aren't going to take this seriously, then neither am I.
Now you can say I shouldn't take them seriously, any more than say Goat Simulator. But I get the impression, like I do with post RE4 games, that the writers tried very hard to create a deep, emotional and compelling story. And that they look at their work and they think they accomplished their goal. This is the best they can do and they are VERY satisfied with themselves.
Its like reading a self-insert FanFic; the writer is having a little too much fun with this.
 

Steve the Pocket

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geldonyetich said:
I'm more bothered by the duration. Half an hour. Really? Literally half an hour for a $60 AAA PS4 release? I'm not even sure that would be worth the price of the GameFly subscription to rent it.
I'm not sure where you got "$60" from; Yahtzee repeatedly said it was $40, and as usual I assume that's only the ludicrously inflated Australian price. Somebody further up in the thread said it was $10 American. Still don't get why they would do that, though, unless they literally ran out of money and had to scrape together some emergency funds to finish the full game.
 

Geo Da Sponge

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Everyone is mentioning the really nasty stuff in this game, but I'd also like to point out that the prison camp is very definitely meant to be parallel-universe Guantanamo Bay.

 

TheomanZero

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Actually, Raiden in MGS2 did have a point -- people enjoyed MGS1 too much without noticing how tortured Solid Snake was supposed to be, so Kojima made a character who tried to be like Solid Snake by playing video games but was actually really pathetic. And then put the player's name on his dog tag at the end, in case that was too subtle.
 

TheKrigeron

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The tape that everyone is talking about:

I swear if Kojima pulls a "lol t'was out of context they actually were eating lollipops" I'm gonna punch something sentient.

Edit:
Roofstone said:
Don't forget the child rape, as in forcing a 13 year old boy to rape his 25 year old friend.

Then mentally crushing them both to do it willingly.

Then more rape. And a bit more, and more..

And so on and so on.
Well gee, that sound like it would be awful if it occured in real life.
 

nima55

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TheKrigeron said:
The tape that everyone is talking about:

I swear if Kojima pulls a "lol t'was out of context they actually were eating lollipops" I'm gonna punch something scentient.
Let me remind people that the guy doing this is called SKULLFACE. Tone? Never heard of it.
 

Imp_Emissary

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Lyvric said:
Wow, the price for the demo and the content are both wrong. I guess this is why I only played the very first and second MGS games. Just for running around in a cardboard box in a super secret base to see peoples ?s and !s.
Actually, there is no cardboard box in this one.

Also, :( That appears to be the least disturbing thing about this game.

I completely agree with Yahtzee on Metal Gear games. They are very dumb in brilliant ways and that's one reason they are so loved, but this whole thing just feels a little tacky to say the least.

I get that if we want games to address more "mature" things we have to be ready to feel uncomfortable with them sometimes, but I'm worried that Metal Gear may not be able to do so in an appropriate manor.

Hope Yahtzee will explore this more in an Extra Punctuation.
 

Drunken_step_dad

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I've been waiting for someone to say it was just the prologue mission chopped off, now for The Phantom Pains to come out and prove us right. I'm still gonna check it out tho, I just got into MGS and can't stop now. It's only $20 off the network for PS3 tho so let's see if it's worth that much.
 

Granfaloon

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JarinArenos said:
Anyone else getting stream not found, and then just an endless loading circle?
I am, hoping it gets resolved soon, looking forward to watching this.
 

inkheart_artist

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JarinArenos said:
Anyone else getting stream not found, and then just an endless loading circle?
I'm getting that problem. Didn't we go through something like this just a few months ago?
 

Kross

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JarinArenos said:
Anyone else getting stream not found, and then just an endless loading circle?
Should be fixed, had a bit of a syncing issue. :/
 

UberGott

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Can't argue with a word Yahtzee has to say about the game: Great little teaser of what's to come and it's got me all frisky for PHANTOM PAIN next year, but the price tag combined with the actual play time are a bad joke. It'd sting a bit less if there were a boss battle or a longer teaser or, literally anything, but this does just feel like the prologue level cut off on short notice and sold as if it were something more.

As for everyone being upset about the content for its sheer offensive content: If the whole point is to violently break with the tone of Peace Walker, literally gutting, abusing and raping the left-over protagonists are at least a brutally honest and meta way of accomplishing the end goal. The simple fact that we're all numb to video game violence means the introduction of something worse was inevitable. Short of Skull Face eating live babies or something, I'm not sure what more could have been done to put the audience in the role of actively hating him.

US price on PS33/360 versions is $20/30 (Download vs Physical), and PS4/XB1 is $30 across the board. Packaged versions were set at $40 initially, but lowered shortly before release. No clue what the prices are in Australia, though I'm sure they aren't any lower...
 

Jandau

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What the actual fuck? As in what the bloody hell were they thinking? I watched the ending, it was needlessly gory and really made me uncomfortable. It was in poor taste, but I can kinda get over that. However, that interrogation tape... WHAT THE BLOODY FUCK? I feel I should be put on a watch list for listening to that. I've been gaming for over two decades at this point and I've seen some messed up shit, but this in right up around the top of the list. Who thought that was a good idea?

Seriously, there was a board meeting and someone said "Torture rape!", someone replied "Forced pedophilia!" and people thought this was something they should roll with.

All I can say to that is "Nope!" and jetpack away...
 

Neurotic Void Melody

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Every person in the entertainment industry gets the need to be taken more seriously as they get older. This is most definately happening to Hideo. Personally i havent noticed this tape everyone's having fanny-fits abouts and ive played a fair bit of it so far (ya know...just to get my moneys worth), but there isnt really much writing in this game to even criticise. Its just far too short. I dont even remember Keifer saying enough for me to make an opinion on him. Just the odd stifled mutter.
Still...its got everyone talking about it, im going to get the phantom pain either way. Even if through morbid curiosity. So this is probably a wise move on their part. I think the full game will have more room for all that nostalgic silliness that the fans seem to love.
 

Yahtzee Croshaw

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Glad I only paid 2.50 for it. Thanks Redbox! Too bad the PS3 version was ugly, and had terrible frame rate. Hopefully there will be a version of Phantom Pain that puts it back in so I can play it on my PS4 as intended.

Silentpony said:
Guys tell me if I'm in the minority here, but I ONLY played the 2nd Metal Gear game, where you're Snake for one mission on a boat and then you're the Fulgrim wannnabe for the rest of the game.
These games are so super goofy, they're virtually unplayable. They are to games what Dr.Who is to scifi; if the writers aren't going to take this seriously, then neither am I.
Now you can say I shouldn't take them seriously, any more than say Goat Simulator. But I get the impression, like I do with post RE4 games, that the writers tried very hard to create a deep, emotional and compelling story. And that they look at their work and they think they accomplished their goal. This is the best they can do and they are VERY satisfied with themselves.
Its like reading a self-insert FanFic; the writer is having a little too much fun with this.
Sure are a lot of generalizations for a guy who's only played one game out of seven.
 

karma9308

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Wait, I'm supposed to annex the Sudetenland second? Fuck, I knew I did something wrong.

OT: Really good video this week, I had to pause it several times so I could finish laughing.
 

XDSkyFreak

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Ah the anti-consumer scams going on today in the industry. Makes life so much more fun watching people get scammed mor and more everyday.
At least this episode did tell memsomething fun that i can look forward too: a review of ESO by Yahtzee ... oh if only that happens. Then again I don't really need yahtzee to tell me how fenomenaly underwhelming and retarded ESO is ... figured that one out from the open beta and the insane cash grab this game is. But I'm sure some amusment can be had with yahtzee once more bringing the sledgehammer of reality down on all those fanboys who claim ESO to be a fantastic and original game when it is nothing more than a check list of what GW and WoW are doing, implemented poorly and held tighether with bugs and layers upon layers of money demanded from the customer.
 

ExtraDebit

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They made a standalone wing commander prophecy expansion and released it for FREE as a thank you to gamers. Now we get demos for $40...........How things changed.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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Sounds about right; to me Kojima comes off as desperate and insecure about himself. It's like he's doing anything he can to get attention because, in all honesty, he's really just over the hill. He just isn't as good as he used to be and he's definitely been usurped as the most eccentric designer. In comparison to guys like Suda 51 or Tomonobu Itagaki, Kojima just looks like a square.
 

Darth_Payn

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I admit to laughing harder than appropriate at Yahtzee's "Lenny" voice, like it was from one of the old Tex Avery cartoons with those two talking bears. I'm surprised Yahtzee didn't compare Kojima to Suda 51 as who's the more kooky auteur.
The Last Melon said:
Stevepinto3 said:
04whim said:
I would think that having an unlockable audiotape 'reward' of the villain
having a young girl gangraped
is more than "leaning on the fence of being weird a little too hard". That's more like bulldozing the fence and jumping on it with clodhoppers.
Nope. Nope this can't be real. This can't be-*googles it*

...

Fucking hell.

And on top of that apparently you can examine her underwear-clad, scarred body during a cutscene? Really? Is there a single indulgent impulse Metal Gear won't jump into with both feet? Because this has crossed the line to being just completely not cool.
You know what's weird, too? Ubisoft posts a trailer implying Laura Croft is about to be sexually assaulted and the gaming world goes nuts, but this stuff apparently gets by with a free pass? How the hell does this thinking work?
Ubisoft didn't make the Tomb Raider prequel/reboot, I thought it was Eidos and Squenix. But yes, that and what I read on this thread is just too fucking creepy to include in a game. Makes me question the sanity of the developers, as if the inmates are running the asylum.
Mathak said:
04whim said:
Kojima's a hack writer trying to be edgy.
I suspect Mark Millar has secretly murdered Kojima and is now wearing his face Hannibal Lecter-style. This is exactly his type of EDGY EDGINESS. Like, it could have been Nemesis: The Video Game.
Either Millar or Garth Ennis who's wearing a suit made from Kojima's skin. There are quite a few "edgy" writers in comic books now, just darkening up the place, but that's a complaint for another thread.

And these goddamned Rob Dyrdek ads can all go fuck right off.
 

Tyrfing

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Did this review put anyone else in mind of a conversation between Don and William Willaims?
 

Sande45

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I don't see the big problem here. Sure it's dark but it's an M-rated game. I don't see how emergency surgery, audio-only implied rape of a teenager (in a Guantanamo-esque torture facility ffs, sorry to burst people's bubbles if you think it was going to be sunshine and unicorns) and someone getting blown up is over the top and too much. I think they actually handled it pretty maturely, for Kojima at least. The bomb scene wasn't sexualised in any way, and no, there's no awkward "there's a bomb in my vag, look" *lifts miniskirt* scene. She just had another bomb in her (not even implied where) because they really, really wanted Big Boss dead. And that torture tape? It only goes as far as to say it happened. The actual act was cut out.
 

MXRom

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There is something wrong when I am paying half as much for stuff like Mercenary Kings to get twice the enjoyment.
 

Batou667

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I sometimes feel like I'm one of the few people who have been gaming since the early 90's and has never played (or even watched) a MGS game. And you know what? I have zero desire to. All I ever hear about any MGS game barring the PS1 original is bad. Disappointment, breaking the fourth wall, plot and characters that appear have to been made by 12-year olds on a sugar high, an ever more incomprehensible storyline, hour-long cut scenes. Seriously, does this series have any redeeming features at all?
 

UberGott

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Caramel Frappe said:
(apart from naming him Skullface. I don't care what you say, who wants to walk around being called that with such a jacked up face? Even in the Dark Knight, 2-face still went by his first name. Just saying.)
Hang on a second... do they ever say "Skull Face" out loud in Ground Zeroes? Or is it just the name given to him in all the trailers marketing materials?

I'm not being cheeky here, I genuinely don't remember.
 

Yahtzee Croshaw

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And yet weirdly enough, Yahtzee still gave the nicest review I've seen for this game that still seemed honest. As in not paid to be overly positive or needlessly cruel to jump on the bandwagon.

Batou667 said:
I sometimes feel like I'm one of the few people who have been gaming since the early 90's and has never played (or even watched) a MGS game. And you know what? I have zero desire to. All I ever hear about any MGS game barring the PS1 original is bad. Disappointment, breaking the fourth wall, plot and characters that appear have to been made by 12-year olds on a sugar high, an ever more incomprehensible storyline, hour-long cut scenes. Seriously, does this series have any redeeming features at all?
Wonderfully well thought out and interesting opinion, coming from someone who just admitted they've never played a single game of the series. Is Moviebob your role model, by any chance?
 
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erttheking said:
nima55 said:
The only way that bomb-gut thing sounds like it could be any worse is if they put it in her uterus.
Oh don't worry, they didn't. They just put the second one in her vagina...no I am not making this up, I wish to Christ that I was.
God, I already thought that whole messing about in her guts for the bomb scene was incredibly gratuitous (seriously, the fact that scene is rendered pointless immediately afterwards is the textbook definition of gratuitous) on its own. That is just downright sick and wrong.
 

Imp_Emissary

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randomthefox said:
And yet weirdly enough, Yahtzee still gave the nicest review I've seen for this game that still seemed honest. As in not paid to be overly positive or needlessly cruel to jump on the bandwagon.
Really? It's matched up with the reviews I've seen so far.

Jim.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/reviews/11133-Metal-Gear-Solid-V-Ground-Zeroes-Review-Snake-Oil



and

To sum them up,

1. :/ Yeah, it's pretty short.

2. :) The gameplay is pretty good, :( but there is very little there story wise. Can't wait for the actual game. ;p

And 3. D: What the tap dancing Christ?!
 

Jonsbax

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randomthefox said:
And yet weirdly enough, Yahtzee still gave the nicest review I've seen for this game that still seemed honest. As in not paid to be overly positive or needlessly cruel to jump on the bandwagon.

Batou667 said:
I sometimes feel like I'm one of the few people who have been gaming since the early 90's and has never played (or even watched) a MGS game. And you know what? I have zero desire to. All I ever hear about any MGS game barring the PS1 original is bad. Disappointment, breaking the fourth wall, plot and characters that appear have to been made by 12-year olds on a sugar high, an ever more incomprehensible storyline, hour-long cut scenes. Seriously, does this series have any redeeming features at all?
Wonderfully well thought out and interesting opinion, coming from someone who just admitted they've never played a single game of the series. Is Moviebob your role model, by any chance?
As a long time lurker I've noticed ZP's comment pages usually have at least few posts like that. I just can't imagine why...

I really hope they've fixed the sneaking like Yahtzee implied, MGS3 is one of my favourite games of all time but the gameplay in MGS4 and Peace Walker bored me to tears. Not going to find out myself until I can get Ground Zeroes for 10 euros and I have a PS4, since I've heard bad things about the PS3 release.
 

Evonisia

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Jun 24, 2013
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Under_your_bed said:
Evonisia said:
Lenny(ie?) was supposed to be likeable? I spent the whole book (and the film) wishing he would die horribly.

Still, this gives me slight hope for MGSV, which I may pick up when it's actually out, and not a glorified demo.
Heh. That takes me back to the start of High School where we had to study "Of Mice and Men" in English. I'll never forget that someone wrote

GEORGE SHOOTS LENNY

on the first page of their book. I'm still laughing about that today.
Same thing happened to me, followed by several insults about "Your Nan" being wrote by crudely drawn pictures of penises and cannabis because this is school in 2012 and 2013.
 

L. Declis

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Oh Jesus Christ, it's this thread again. I've already written a small essay on this. Suppose I'll go again.

UberGott said:
Caramel Frappe said:
(apart from naming him Skullface. I don't care what you say, who wants to walk around being called that with such a jacked up face? Even in the Dark Knight, 2-face still went by his first name. Just saying.)
Hang on a second... do they ever say "Skull Face" out loud in Ground Zeroes? Or is it just the name given to him in all the trailers marketing materials?

I'm not being cheeky here, I genuinely don't remember.
They basically say it when you see him and his name flashes up underneath. And I think a few characters mention it once or twice as a derogatory nickname.

Johnny Novgorod said:
All I got from this is "a girl has a bomb in her vagina".
They never say it, they only imply it, and to be honest, this is equivalent to watching Apocalypse Now and saying "All I got from this is that Americans slaughtered innocent people for fun".

geldonyetich said:
Sounds to me like this whole, "We had you extract a bomb from a girl's guts only to have to insufficient time to extract another one from her nether region which then explodes - and oh by the way the bonus feature is hearing her being gang raped" is basically what happens when the developers thought to themselves, "We want to be dark and edgy, but people have the Internet and sensationalist news now, so that sets the bar rather high." Alright, fair enough, if being edgy to you is that important.
Jesus Christ, did anyone actually play this game? It's not "Well, we had best leave that in her vagina for shits and giggles", it's "Sorry, Big Boss, but they once again outplayed you and you didn't manage to save me; they hid another one in a place you'd never look". Decoy bombs actually happen in warfare.

And you don't hear her being gang-raped. You hear the conversation up to that point, and then it doesn't happen. I wish people would play the damn game or at least watch the YouTube clip of it before going off on one. This is the whole "Mass Effect is porn" thing, where no one plays the damn game but are willing to give their opinion based off someone else's opinion based off a comedy review of it.

Jandau said:
What the actual fuck? As in what the bloody hell were they thinking? I watched the ending, it was needlessly gory and really made me uncomfortable. It was in poor taste, but I can kinda get over that. However, that interrogation tape... WHAT THE BLOODY FUCK? I feel I should be put on a watch list for listening to that. I've been gaming for over two decades at this point and I've seen some messed up shit, but this in right up around the top of the list. Who thought that was a good idea?

Seriously, there was a board meeting and someone said "Torture rape!", someone replied "Forced pedophilia!" and people thought this was something they should roll with.

All I can say to that is "Nope!" and jetpack away...
Well, at least you watched the ending.

"It was uncomfortable". Yes. Yes it was. You remember how in The Last of Us how scary it is to be a little girl getting chased around by a man who plans to murder you in a restaurant with no way to escape? It is supposed to make you feel uncomfortable; that is the tone they want.

"Peadophilia" he says, despite the fact she is 25. And a Prisoner of War. In a war camp. You know, what actually happens in these places. Rape is a real threat if you get captured and you're a women.

"Torture"? We've had torture in EVERY single Metal Gear Solid. Is it because she is a girl? "Torture rape"? This is mentioned to happen to Cecile and Paz in Peace Walker, to EVA and Raiden in MGS3, to 3 of the Beauties in MGS4, and once again, it's what actually happens in these places.

Kojima has said about Phantom Pain from meeting 1 that he wanted to really discuss themes and he didn't want to shy away from them. He has always hinted at these themes of the pain of war, and what REALLY happens, and to take away all of the hero veneer and Hollywood polish and just put you in there. It's not nice or pleasant. Neither was Spec Ops: The Line. They're not there for happy fun times. The Phantom Pain isn't either.

SNCommand said:
Well, I'm guessing Metal Gear Solid V: Phantom Pain will likely include Ground Zero as well so no point in buying it really, if not it will probably be a lot cheaper than it is now
They have said it won't be part of the main game; but I imagine there will be a Game of the Year or whatever which has both or something.

04whim said:
I would think that having an unlockable audiotape 'reward' of the villain
having a young girl gangraped
is more than "leaning on the fence of being weird a little too hard". That's more like bulldozing the fence and jumping on it with clodhoppers.
Sigh. It's not a reward. There's no fanfare. There isn't a level up song. It's a gruff veteran who discovers, to his and your horror, a tape of one of his old friends being raped and tortured and having to listen to it.

And once again, you don't listen to the rape. You hear the prequel, and then silence. Much like the murder in Psycho, you hear and see nothing; your mind does the rest.

nima55 said:
erttheking said:
nima55 said:
The only way that bomb-gut thing sounds like it could be any worse is if they put it in her uterus.
Oh don't worry, they didn't. They just put the second one in her vagina...no I am not making this up, I wish to Christ that I was.
Oh... Well that is just... SUPER not ok. Like seriously, that is just whole new unexplored levels of not ok, so many that boggle the mind. It makes me look at the whole MGS franchise with a little bit of not ok.
Once again, can you play the game or watch someone else play it? It won't take too long, the game is short.

It's a decoy bomb. It's a real life tactic used. And it often works in real life. And it nearly worked in this game.

And does it make you feel uncomfortable? Well, that was the point. These places are not supposed to be holiday resorts. I would go into more detail, but I have to explain this EVERY time. Find either the other thread or earlier this comment.
thetenet said:
It is a very dark game in some parts, which reinforces the inconsistency problem of the franchise as a whole. That being said, I liked the game, ignoring the price (which it was lower to me in absolute terms since the parallel dollar in Argentina absorbed most of the blow), MGS is one of the franchises in the triple A world that tries to speak of real world problems within the context of its own narrative,it brought up electronic surveillance way before Snowden in MGS2, child soldiers exist all over the world and when they get captured no one gives them any special treatment because of their age.

What other game series dares to bring such things to the forefront? I mean just look at Spec Ops The Line it brought PTSD and civilian killings to the game and hardly anyone played it. This is why I still applaud the MGS series and I will play the Phantom Pain the day it comes out.
Well, at least SOMEONE gets it. High five, dude.

Zachary Amaranth said:
Evonisia said:
Lenny(ie?) was supposed to be likeable? I spent the whole book (and the film) wishing he would die horribly.
Which, oddly enough, would put it into my comparison of the Metal Gear series.
Yes. Because you don't like it, means no one should like it. Congratulations on being the stereotype of the Escapist community.

nima55 said:
Oh... Well that is just... SUPER not ok. Like seriously, that is just whole new unexplored levels of not ok, so many that boggle the mind. It makes me look at the whole MGS franchise with a little bit of not ok.
This is barely new ground for MGS. It's not even particularly envelope pushing, as prior threads on this have illustrated. Like, I get why people are uncomfortable. What I don't get is why this retroactively taints a series that's always been about two steps from tentacle rape.
So, we go from Solid Snake, who is all-things-considered a "good guy" who is fighting an "evil guy" where the lines are drawn and you know who the bad guys are and who the good guys are (kind of- there's a lot of betrayal in the series).

But if you play Peace Walker or Ground Zero, and paid a lot of attention to the previous entries, then you'd know the Metal Gear Solid is VERY dark. It just doesn't show it. It's not like Gears of War which needs to shove it's grittiness and darkness into your face. It's dark in that brightly coloured room with the closet that no one wants to open because it screams at night when you're not looking kind of way.

Big Boss's journey is not a happy one. We are embarking on a man who goes from being the epitome of fairness, mercy and peace to becoming a man who plunges the entire world into war on the brink of destruction; the man who is eventually the ultimate bad guy who we, as Snake, must find and kill twice. We are going to watch the journey of a good man become evil through those small necessary steps across the line until he finds himself as bad as the people he is fighting. We are going to see war, proper war, and what war is really like through the eyes of a man who is, by his one admittance, only good and only happy with a gun in his hands and blood on his face.

We will see him lose everything, and we are going to watch him learn to deal with the guilt of leading his friends and followers to death, of surviving when everyone he knows and loves and is better than him dies, when his every action causes nothing but death and misery and the only option left is to hold a nuclear missile to the throat of the entire world.

04whim said:
Kojima's a hack writer trying to be edgy.
And brilliant. And deep. He's basically the end result of a really shitty indie dev given a massive budget and constant ego stroking from a fanbase who will defend the premise of paying 40 bucks for an hour of gameplay because Kojima did it, even though a couple years ago the concept of such a paid demo was floated by (EA? Activision? I forget which, they're so similar in most respects) and people lost their bloody minds. Not to mention Dead Rising, which was only five bucks.
No fan here is defending the price; even I who spends a lot of time explaining my point of view to people doesn't bother defending the price. As far as I am concerned, I am happy I played it, and I love Metal Gear Solid, and I'm glad I played it earlier and it was (sorta) worth it to me, and I'm saying only to me, as a Metal Gear Solid fanatic, do I find the price (sorta) acceptable. I wouldn't, however, recommend it for that price.

And I like his writing. He has touched upon a lot of topics which are interesting, and he has an interesting point of view; all of his villains are memorable and there are some interesting philosophical debates to be had around a lot of his ideas. You may not like his writing, and there is a bit of a problem with dialogue "I have... Metal Gear." "METAL GEAR!?" "Yes, Metal Gear". But I like it well enough, it's always interesting.

Ego stroking? He gets death threats; for Raiden, for ending MGS4, for potentially killing Solid Snake. No, he is the end result of a game developer who has been told "You MUST make this game" and he's responded "Well, if I am going to make this game, then I can make whatever game I want. And I want to make a game which really challenges the player and the themes of war." This is precisely the kind of thing that people constantly complain about.

Spec Ops; So AMAZING because it deals with war REALISTICALLY! It makes you realise how bad war is.
The Last of Us; SO AMAZING because it deals with HORRIBLE PEOPLE and how good people can be SHITTY and KILL EACH OTHER and RAPE THREATS and SO DRAMATIC!
Bioshock Infinite: SO AMAZING because it talks about REALLY DEEP THEMES! OH MY GOD! And it's SO DARK while LOOKING BRIGHT!
Tomb Raider: ARGH, WHY CAN'T VIDEO GAMES DEAL WITH RAPE!? (Alternatively) ARGH, VIDEO GAMES AREN'T ALLOWED TO DEAL WITH RAPE! ONLY FILMS AND BOOKS CAN!

Ground Zeroes: UGH! THIS GAME MAKES REFERENCES TO RAPE, TORTURE, MULTILATION AND MURDER! THAT NEVER HAPPENS IN WAR!

Here it is. A game which deals with all those things people complain about Call of Duty for doing. The sort of game which takes what the Red Cross was complaining about when they said video games don't deal with war crimes.

This game is doing precisely that. You want video games to be taken seriously? Here one is. Phantom Pain is going to be similar to Full Metal Jacket and Apocalypse Now. It's not going to be fun. Or comfortable. It's not meant to be.

Next up: Phantom Pain will charge for bullets and Kojima's fans will defend the practice so we can literally go back and look and see which of them screamed when the same idea was floated by John Rikki Tiki Tavi.
Once again, no one is defending the price. Stop making up extra things, we've got enough to discuss as it is (what with implied rape, torture, etc).

thaluikhain said:
And...well, having a bomb in your vagina wouldn't be fun, but at least you wouldn't have to be cut open to get it out.
Knowing Kojima, I'm pretty sure the method by which it would be introduced would be worse than being opened up surgically.

As such....

Scars Unseen said:
Imagine how she felt.

In short, I'd really rather not.
Which is the point. It's not supposed to be comfortable. None of it is.

Okay, I'm done with these threads. I've written two essays on the damn thing, I'm just gonna paste a link to my blog post from now on.
 

Therumancer

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nima55 said:
erttheking said:
nima55 said:
The only way that bomb-gut thing sounds like it could be any worse is if they put it in her uterus.
Oh don't worry, they didn't. They just put the second one in her vagina...no I am not making this up, I wish to Christ that I was.
Oh... Well that is just... SUPER not ok. Like seriously, that is just whole new unexplored levels of not ok, so many that boggle the mind. It makes me look at the whole MGS franchise with a little bit of not ok.
Not a big Metal Gear fan to begin with, but I think it being "not okay" was exactly the point. It was supposed to get a rise out of people, make them uncomfortable, and go "that is truly [email protected] up". What's more it's kind of hard to do a really dark or gritty game when you confine yourself to bad guys that only act like that were being written in the most draconian days of the "Comics Code Authority". When you look at what really goes on with mercenaries, third world warlords, and unaligned soldiers, this seems like it's pretty much par for the course. Wiring kids up with bombs and such and then sending them on suicide missions against first world soldiers is something you've seen throughout Africa and The Middle East (as it young children being aducted and turned into hardened killers using the most cruel of tactics and sent out loaded on drugs and booze as young as 9). You start digging into how messed up the environment Snake is dealing with is, and yeah... I could see someone implanting a bomb in a hostage they know is going to be recognized, and truthfully the idea of a "secondary device" is one that you don't see show up in fiction more often. If your dealing with some guy who is supposed to be a jaded psychopath implanting these things in sex organs makes sense, and chances are it got him off like a seriel-killer too.

But then again I'm a jaded horror fan, so stuff like that doesn't particularly bug me when the bad guys are involved, the fact that it offends the normal person is pretty much the point. Sort of like the way Jack The Ripper cut open victims, or perhaps more recently and relevantly the way BTK took out his victims (BTK stands for: Bind, Torture, Kill).

Of course then again while it's a different style of game and was presented differently I just laughed my arse off at "South Park: Stick Of Truth" where:
they did pretty much the same thing. In that game the US government implants a nuke in Mr. Slave's ass to destroy the town and save the world from Nazi Zombies unleashed by a spaceship crash. Their first plan having already been thwarted so this is the failsafe. You need to shrink down, crawl up his butt (with his anal cavity and intestines forming the final dungeon) and disarm the device. Same basic idea, different style and outcome. The story was just more serious, the bad guys stuck it up the other end (on a girl instead of a guy) and Snake didn't have any gnome powder... (though come to think of it, that would have made the most absolutely [email protected] up crossover ever).

But yeah, it's messed up and all kinds of wrong. Hopefully the guy that did it faced a truly unpleasant death at Snake's hands. In heroic fantasy (or even a lot of horror) half the point to that kind of garbage is to get you invested for the inevitable righteous beat down. It also sort of "sells" why a hero who is kind of a brutal jerk themselves can be an anti-hero as opposed to just being seen as another villain (which is kind of an issue with Snake/Big Boss on some levels... especially seeing as Big Boss *does* become a villain eventually as far as I know).
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Leon Declis said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
All I got from this is "a girl has a bomb in her vagina".
They never say it, they only imply it, and to be honest, this is equivalent to watching Apocalypse Now and saying "All I got from this is that Americans slaughtered innocent people for fun".
No, that's a given. The vagina bomb is a morbid, tasteless detail.
 

Trueflame

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Fantastic! Yahtzee basically said that he liked the gameplay, and I would never in my wildest dreams expect him to enjoy the story or any of the dialogue of a MGS title, so this is about the best news I could have hoped for. As for it being overpriced, of course it is. But I feel like regular games priced at $60 are overpriced too, which is why the newest game in my library is The Last of Us, and even that was a gift. I'll pick up this game, and the actual MGS5, when they are both on sale at some point, and then I'll be perfectly happy and content.
 

ToastiestZombie

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Caramel Frappe said:
Anyhow yea I would never pay $40 for a very short demo.. like, ever. Even if it was a Dark Souls or amazing game, $40 for a very short demo feels like a total rip off if you ask me.
It's not $40 in America, it's $30.

OT: Child rape is bad, I think we can all agree, but in the context of the game and the setting it uses and the tone Kojima is trying to set for TPP I think it's perfectly OK to use it as a story device seeing as it's not shown or even heard explicitly. The entire game is meant to make the player want only revenge for the sick, terrible acts Cipher and the gang did against BB, Paz, Chico and Mother Base. A lot of you are sounding like the "GAMES MAKE VIOLENT!" reactionaries, but since it's popular to be reactionary against violence against females I guess it's alright.
 

UberGott

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Caramel Frappe said:
The very first clip of the demo showed everyone referring to him as Skullface. Even in the audio clips, the girl calls him that and Skullface himself likes being addressed as such. So yea, like how everyone calls Big Boss his name, that is how Skullface is.
I... don't think that's correct. The "first" demo footage from GDC 2013 introduces Ishmael, not Skull Face.

I re-watched the opening of Ground Zeroes and listened to all of Chico's Tapes to be sure, and the name "Skull Face" doesn't come up once. The closest thing you get is in the 'Agent's Recording' tape, in which the man himself says the following:

"Yes, that's right. You see a skull face. You see me. This skull is who I am. My mark, my proof of humanity. I have no country, no language, I have no face, but I haven't lost my skull."

So unless I've missed something specific, Ground Zeroes is on par with The Dark Knight: The audience knows the villain's slightly stupid moniker, but the characters themselves never use it, or even directly reference it in the story.
 

Akiraacecombat

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Well, instead of quoting the whole thing, I rather just say that while games should explore dark themes (and some do indeed), there is a sense that there needs to be a consistent tone.

In Mass Effect, the character's sexuality was implemented to the game narrative rather compellingly by given the story depth while also giving personality depth to characters, note that this has been done since the first Mass Effect, instead of following nearly a decade of character development. In Spec Ops violence and atrocities of war are based on a consistent tone and a cohesion with the character arc, where all the components work to deliver the message.

I like MGS story, but is pretty full of BS in many many points and many moments, is badly written and ... inconsistent in many ways. ALL the games had goofy elements, gags and so on and so forth, problem is that MGS4 tried to be bolder and pretentious at the same time, but it never outweighs one with the other, is goofy but is never that dark, and it makes a point without going through the dark narrative while also showcasing it (see the stories given by Drebin, after you defeated the bosses, they carried the message without compromising the story quality and pacing).

Then you have MGS5's story, a continuation of MGS:pW story taking the dirtiest events in the last 50 years during the cold war from both the USA (see central america during the 80's), the USSR (with the Afghan war) and African Nations and conflicts, places that are well known for it's issues. Kojima's response for that era of the cold war is take an audiotape, making it a reward (which is kind of fucked up when you think about it), and showcase that part of the cold war by making a shocking inconsistent piece of character development out of place. It could have done better, the game tone is not accorded to that sort of theme (remind you that is a series with a full complete gag of itself, while also attempting to be witty).

To put it in context, imagine if a James Bond movie suddenly crosses with A Clockwork Orange, it cannot possibly work with a single tone, you either tgo Ian Fleming or Stanley Kubrick but you can't go both. It how it feels like for the game, a shocking moment just for shock sake and nothing more.

I simply borrow the game, I'm not stupid, dumping 40 bucks is in itself an insult.
 

VonBrewskie

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Ooh. Good video Yahtzee. My friends and I are currently swapping the "game" around after each paying for part of it. It's a stunning level, but shit man. 40 bucks? Total bullshit. Do what we did folks. Especially if you're fans of the series like we are think 40 bucks is too much. Split the cost among your friends and pass it around. Works well. We all paid about eight bucks each for it. As for the Webbys, I voted tfor you guys like I do every year, but you're up against Twitch in your category. That's gonna be a tough nut to crack y'all. Sorry!
 

anthony87

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ToastiestZombie said:
Caramel Frappe said:
Anyhow yea I would never pay $40 for a very short demo.. like, ever. Even if it was a Dark Souls or amazing game, $40 for a very short demo feels like a total rip off if you ask me.
It's not $40 in America, it's $30.
?20 here!

And that colours my view of it somewhat. There's no way in hell I would've paid 30 or 40 but considering the number of hours I've gotten out of it, ?20 isn't that bad.
 

SlightlyEvil

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I thought "Mr. Skullface" was Yahtzee making fun of the game, as is his usual wont. But then I looked into it more, and no, apparently that's the actual name of the character.

This in a nutshell is why all the other gruesome bits are offensive here. Context matters, and the context of the Metal Gear franchise has always been silliness. The bloody realism of the Battle of Normandy worked cinematic wonders in Saving Private Ryan, but if that same realism had been applied to, say, the climax of Stripes, we'd be horrified and call the movie an abomination. Likewise, once you've named your villain "Mr. Skullface", you've created a cartoon character. Thus, when you juxtapose that with the brutal torture and rape of multiple children, we will be horrified and angry at YOU, not just at your character.

Sheesh, the more I read about this game, the more it sounds like a parody of Metal Gear Solid. Maybe that's the point, or maybe Kojima wants to quit and the only way he knows how is to piss off everyone in the free world, or something, but that's not going to stop me from calling this appalling.

AND he's going to charge $40 for this? To hell with that. Excuse me while I go and play the free expansion to FTL, which I bought for $10 and have put 142 hours into.
 

COMaestro

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Sande45 said:
I don't see the big problem here. Sure it's dark but it's an M-rated game. I don't see how emergency surgery, audio-only implied rape of a teenager (in a Guantanamo-esque torture facility ffs, sorry to burst people's bubbles if you think it was going to be sunshine and unicorns) and someone getting blown up is over the top and too much. I think they actually handled it pretty maturely, for Kojima at least. The bomb scene wasn't sexualised in any way, and no, there's no awkward "there's a bomb in my vag, look" *lifts miniskirt* scene. She just had another bomb in her (not even implied where) because they really, really wanted Big Boss dead. And that torture tape? It only goes as far as to say it happened. The actual act was cut out.
Leon Declis said:
Oh Jesus Christ, it's this thread again. I've already written a small essay on this. Suppose I'll go again.

*snip*
Which is the point. It's not supposed to be comfortable. None of it is.
Therumancer said:
Not a big Metal Gear fan to begin with, but I think it being "not okay" was exactly the point. It was supposed to get a rise out of people, make them uncomfortable, and go "that is truly [email protected] up".
YES! People who get it! It always seems that a large percentage of people who are complaining about the content haven't even played it and are just reacting to what they hear about it. And as everyone I've quoted here says, it's SUPPOSED to be dark and disturbing. It's not supposed to be quirky or tongue in cheek. It's leading into a hero falling into the role of a villain, and you get to play the character as it happens. People don't fall from grace for no reason, they fall when so much bad shit is happening that it seems anything they do won't be as bad.

Once you finish the main mission and the bomb is removed from Paz, you feel that everything is going to be okay. You finished the mission, right? You get rewarded with a happy or at least thought provoking ending for finishing a game, right? Wrong, not here. That's not how real life works, especially in warfare. Big Boss has everything taken away from him in just a few short minutes in a horrible, gruesome scene that completely invalidates everything he did from Peace Walker to Ground Zeroes. It's all there in order to tear him down. Phantom Pain will be him reassembling himself as best he can, but he is going to be very changed from the experience.

I am very eager to play it.
 

Under_your_bed

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Evonisia said:
Same thing happened to me, followed by several insults about "Your Nan" being wrote by crudely drawn pictures of penises and cannabis because this is school in 2012 and 2013.
Ah, see this is where it was different for me. At private school we were far above you plebians. We simply made got our butlers to fight for us while we shouted encouragement in Latin. And then the headmaster would come and give us our canings. To finish, we'd have toffee pudding. Huzzah!
 

Thanatos2k

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I really think that Hideo Kojima is just trying to see how many sexist and disgusting things he can shove into a game before someone stops him.

No one has yet. I'm sure the array of Konami yes-men aren't able to even think about challenging him on anything.
 

Racecarlock

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It's not supposed to be fun or comfortable. Well, that's nice. The franchise that had metal gear rising in it is finally ditching fun for the same shit every game feels it has to do nowadays.

Next thing you know pac man will have child soldiers in it. I was never into metal gear, but this change probably won't sway me. Maybe this game, like spec ops, is more suited to people who don't watch the news and therefore don't get their fill of violence and rape before the morning is over. Me? I see enough of this stuff in the news already. I guess I'll be playing some more The Orange Box.
 

Thanatos2k

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Batou667 said:
I sometimes feel like I'm one of the few people who have been gaming since the early 90's and has never played (or even watched) a MGS game. And you know what? I have zero desire to. All I ever hear about any MGS game barring the PS1 original is bad. Disappointment, breaking the fourth wall, plot and characters that appear have to been made by 12-year olds on a sugar high, an ever more incomprehensible storyline, hour-long cut scenes. Seriously, does this series have any redeeming features at all?
The thing is - the GAMEPLAY is always good! That's the saddest part, everything outside of the gameplay is a complete mess bordering on travesty levels at times, but for some inexplicable reason people keep giving it all a pass.

I think it's one of those cases of self delusion - you don't get what the hell the game is trying to do, your brain knows in the back of your mind it's complete rubbish, but you assume that it's talking about something intelligent, so you pretend you get it too, and everyone else criticizing it just doesn't know what they're talking about!

I wouldn't spend $60 on a game with absolutely godawful writing!
I wouldn't spend $60 on a game made by a pervert who lets you change the camera angles in cutscenes to look at the panties of women in the scenes!
I'm better than that!....right?
 

anthony87

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Racecarlock said:
It's not supposed to be fun or comfortable. Well, that's nice. The franchise that had metal gear rising in it is finally ditching fun for the same shit every game feels it has to do nowadays.
Metal Gear Rising? You mean that game that brought up things like the war economy, war being used as a business and children being moulded into soulless killing machines? It's easy to forget that aside from a badass cyborg Raiden is a former child solider who clearly can't live a normal life and as hammy as all that "Jack the Ripper" and "I was born to kill" stuff is played up it shows that his past has totally fucked him up.

Happy happy joy joy eh?

The Metal Gear games have always had the fucked up stuff right along side the fun and the ninjas and robots and magic, the only reason people are getting their knickers so twisted now is because it's the "in" thing at the moment.

That last bit about knickers isn't directed towards you specifically, just wanted to avoid double posting. ^_^
 

DEAD34345

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Racecarlock said:
It's not supposed to be fun or comfortable. Well, that's nice. The franchise that had metal gear rising in it is finally ditching fun for the same shit every game feels it has to do nowadays.

Next thing you know pac man will have child soldiers in it. I was never into metal gear, but this change probably won't sway me. Maybe this game, like spec ops, is more suited to people who don't watch the news and therefore don't get their fill of violence and rape before the morning is over. Me? I see enough of this stuff in the news already. I guess I'll be playing some more The Orange Box.
Um... what? Child soldiers have been in the Metal Gear games since Solid 2 at least, and the first Metal Gear Solid game was also pretty damn dark. The overriding theme in every Metal Gear Solid game actually is that war is really, really shit (maybe it was the same in the original 2D Metal gear games too, but having never played those I can't say). Also Rising was a spin-off that intentionally had a pretty different tone and style to the Solid games, and as far as I'm aware it was made by different people. I really don't know what point you're trying to make here. That media shouldn't depict violence and rape at all?

OT: Bad things happening in a video game is not the same as bad things happening in real life. As several people have wrote above me, the game does not endorse the horrible things that are done in this game. The entire point of these horrible things in fact is to make Big Boss (and company) so obsessively mad that they too will commit horrible atrocities and become terrible people in order to seek revenge. The story is about his journey to becoming a villain.

Besides which, the game is set in alternate universe Guantanamo Bay. I'd have been more offended if the prisoners weren't horrifically treated.

The only truly disgusting thing about this game as far as I'm concerned is the price tag.
 

Uncle Comrade

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Just watched the video of the tape, didn't find it that horrible, although as far as I'm concerned any impact was lessened by Snake sitting off to the side puffing on his cigar emotionlessly, as though he were just listening to the cricket scores instead of his comrades being physically and psychologically tortured.

I agree with what other people have been saying, MGS has always had some pretty grim themes running through it, it's just that this time they've decided to do away with the subtlety. For me, it's the same as those over the top sex scenes you get in films and tv sometimes. The ones where you think "That's good and all, but you could've just shown them getting into bed together, and then cut to them waking up in the morning, and it would've still got the point across."

Also, and again this is just me, but I'm not sure "It's supposed to make you uncomfortable" is that good a counter. It may well be true, but it doesn't invalidate the grievance. If I was in a restaurant, complaining that my meal was cold, being told that it was deliberate would not make me any less pissed off about it.
 

ToastiestZombie

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Uncle Comrade said:
Just watched the video of the tape, didn't find it that horrible, although as far as I'm concerned any impact was lessened by Snake sitting off to the side puffing on his cigar emotionlessly, as though he were just listening to the cricket scores instead of his comrades being physically and psychologically tortured.

I agree with what other people have been saying, MGS has always had some pretty grim themes running through it, it's just that this time they've decided to do away with the subtlety. For me, it's the same as those over the top sex scenes you get in films and tv sometimes. The ones where you think "That's good and all, but you could've just shown them getting into bed together, and then cut to them waking up in the morning, and it would've still got the point across."

Also, and again this is just me, but I'm not sure "It's supposed to make you uncomfortable" is that good a counter. It may well be true, but it doesn't invalidate the grievance. If I was in a restaurant, complaining that my meal was cold, being told that it was deliberate would not make me any less pissed off about it.
The entire point of GZ is to make the player and Big Boss feel utter hatred towards Skullface and Cipher. Which leads into TPP which has the point of blind revenge turning people into cold-hearted, child-murdering villains. There's not really many other ways to show Big Boss' downfall into a child-soldier-training, maniacal warlord that don't involve some dark shit.

And I'd argue that the rape scene, whilst not being subtle in itself, is still presented to the player in a subtle way. In MGS3 the rape was shown in a very subtle way, but seeing as GZ doesn't have the mechanics or context to do that there's really no other choice than putting it in one of the optional tapes you can collect. And let's face it, a lot of people would've got their knickers in a twist if it stopped with Skullface going "Don't bother fighting, you can't stop it" or something, a lot of people just have very reactionary views towards rape in video-games.
 

MrHide-Patten

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orangeapples said:
dragongit said:
Well... it could have been more. It was gonna be 40 USD, but they decided to lower it by 10 bucks at the last minute because paying 75% of the game's price for 10% of the experience would have been too far. It's solid gameplay, but it's just a means to release something for the Japanese PS4 owners near their launch, and as far as I can suspect a means to pay off their new expensive engine.
I don't think Australia got the memo about changing the price. It happens a lot over there.
No they got it, they just put in the filling cabinet with 'stop abusing foreign brown people', 'gay marriage', 'women's rights' and 'climate change'. Then Rupert comes in whining about how nobody buys into his crappy Television service, so he pleads with the Prime Minister (with his big bag of cash), to loop us around the same DRM noose as America.

At least we have the beac-... oh look at all the nice Box Jellyfish.
 

Waaghpowa

Needs more Dakka
Apr 13, 2010
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I think a lot of people are missing the point in regards to the games length vs price. The game has quite a lot of content in it. Some people are saying it takes 40-80 hours to get 100% completion. If you're the kind of person who plays a game once through and doesn't touch it again, then don't buy it.

People who are really big into Metal Gear Solid in general don't play the games once and that's it, they play it multiple times through. This is essentially a game made for the fans who want to go through all of it over and over and complete the content.

I played Meta Gear Solid 3 and 4 almost a dozen times through, even thought I did the EXACT same things every time. With the exception if MGS3 where I went through the entire game without a single kill or alert, including bosses.

And to be fair, every MGS game you can finish in about an hour if you just sprint through everything and skip cutscenes, so I don't see how this is anything that new.
 

UberGott

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Waaghpowa said:
And to be fair, every MGS game you can finish in about an hour if you just sprint through everything and skip cutscenes, so I don't see how this is anything that new.
You can speed-run Ground Zeroes in about 10 minutes. At best, it's comparable to the "Tanker" Demo for MGS2 - and even that ended with a boss battle. No matter how you slice it, Ground Zeroes is ridiculously tiny.

The fact that Konami is charging $30 for a "short" game isn't the problem. The problem is they're charging half-price for something that's probably an eighth of the game.
 

Treaos Serrare

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to be honest i won't be surprised if Paz Makes a Return in Phantom Pain, as either a cyborg or as the original Paz and the one we saved from Bizzaro Guantanamo was a body double or clone. because that's the thing i have come to expect from this series. I haven't unlocked everything so far, the final mission is still locked for me, no doubt behind an " S-Class all Missions" requirement like there was in Peace Walker
 

Flunk

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No body buy this...

Or every single new Metal Gear game is going to be this short. Seriously, that's what buying this will cause.

Cola Cubes sound good, is that a real product?
 

Waaghpowa

Needs more Dakka
Apr 13, 2010
3,073
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UberGott said:
Waaghpowa said:
And to be fair, every MGS game you can finish in about an hour if you just sprint through everything and skip cutscenes, so I don't see how this is anything that new.
You can speed-run Ground Zeroes in about 10 minutes. At best, it's comparable to the "Tanker" Demo for MGS2 - and even that ended with a boss battle. No matter how you slice it, Ground Zeroes is ridiculously tiny.

The fact that Konami is charging $30 for a "short" game isn't the problem. The problem is they're charging half-price for something that's probably an eighth of the game.
I also said that the game has quite a lot of content aside from the main story. So if you don't care to play the game beyond the one play through, then yes, it's tiny. If you have a problem with that and have no desire to play the game beyond that, then don't buy it. It's simple.
 

Mylinkay Asdara

Waiting watcher
Nov 28, 2010
934
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TheKrigeron said:
The tape that everyone is talking about:

I swear if Kojima pulls a "lol t'was out of context they actually were eating lollipops" I'm gonna punch something sentient.

Edit:
Roofstone said:
Don't forget the child rape, as in forcing a 13 year old boy to rape his 25 year old friend.

Then mentally crushing them both to do it willingly.

Then more rape. And a bit more, and more..

And so on and so on.
Well gee, that sound like it would be awful if it occured in real life.
Hm. Deceit and deception make her a real woman. Pretty clear rape start into crying aftermath with a cut for the "actual" bit, as everyone supporting this is so keen to point out. Showing her off to the other prisoner. Talk about a taste test. Take her or you're next and then he's to have at her - which apparently results in him talking and invalidating whatever horrific crap she's just been through ? and an I don't know what the hell ending. The whole while Snake's just standing there listening to the tape, zero reaction, smoking a cigar.

I saw an interview Kojima did about being jealous of what Breaking Bad could do and I guess I should have expected something, but damn.

I don't want this. I wish I hadn't clicked on the vid I sure as hell don't want to play the game it's from. I'm actually a little nauseated that the price tag for content is the apparent focus in the community when there's this in the same basket.

Yeah. No. Sorry - call me whatever you want - I'm out. Done. Not getting this, not playing the longer version which will presumably have more of the same or worse. Done. Forum flame commence or whatever, don't bother, I don't care. My decision, make your own, but leave off trying to change mine before you even begin, because I'm not interested in changing any of yours.

Uncle Comrade said:
Just watched the video of the tape, didn't find it that horrible, although as far as I'm concerned any impact was lessened by Snake sitting off to the side puffing on his cigar emotionlessly, as though he were just listening to the cricket scores instead of his comrades being physically and psychologically tortured.

I agree with what other people have been saying, MGS has always had some pretty grim themes running through it, it's just that this time they've decided to do away with the subtlety. For me, it's the same as those over the top sex scenes you get in films and tv sometimes. The ones where you think "That's good and all, but you could've just shown them getting into bed together, and then cut to them waking up in the morning, and it would've still got the point across."

Also, and again this is just me, but I'm not sure "It's supposed to make you uncomfortable" is that good a counter. It may well be true, but it doesn't invalidate the grievance. If I was in a restaurant, complaining that my meal was cold, being told that it was deliberate would not make me any less pissed off about it.
Bolding mine. Basically this. Sure - artistic discretion, content, intention, yeah yeah. Counter? Consumer voice of disliking those decisions. I have one; I'll use it. I'm not going to start up a rally, but I'm certainly not going to throw money at this - which is equivalent to praise and support. Good day.
 

RealRT

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Stop subtitling ZP vids, for cripes sake! If I already know whats in it, I have no reason to see it!
 

Remus

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Nov 24, 2012
1,698
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Look at the flowers MGS, just look at the flowers.


So glad I lost interest in MGS after the silly lazer mission in the first game. Things like this might irk my ire if I were actually invested. On a side note, have you SEEN Game of Thrones? That show literally (no I really mean it) had more dwarves than you could shake a stick at in the last episode.
 

Racecarlock

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Lunncal said:
Racecarlock said:
It's not supposed to be fun or comfortable. Well, that's nice. The franchise that had metal gear rising in it is finally ditching fun for the same shit every game feels it has to do nowadays.

Next thing you know pac man will have child soldiers in it. I was never into metal gear, but this change probably won't sway me. Maybe this game, like spec ops, is more suited to people who don't watch the news and therefore don't get their fill of violence and rape before the morning is over. Me? I see enough of this stuff in the news already. I guess I'll be playing some more The Orange Box.
Um... what? Child soldiers have been in the Metal Gear games since Solid 2 at least, and the first Metal Gear Solid game was also pretty damn dark. The overriding theme in every Metal Gear Solid game actually is that war is really, really shit (maybe it was the same in the original 2D Metal gear games too, but having never played those I can't say). Also Rising was a spin-off that intentionally had a pretty different tone and style to the Solid games, and as far as I'm aware it was made by different people. I really don't know what point you're trying to make here. That media shouldn't depict violence and rape at all?
I'm not saying that media shouldn't depict violence and rape. But when it's all that is ever depicted, it starts to get a little tiring. Like "Ooh look how dark the world is". As if I didn't already know. Even if the news didn't exist whatsoever, every game has tried to make a point about how horrible war is or how shitty and shallow us americans and our smartphones and reality shows are.

I guess metal gear might have always been this dark. Whatever.

When is someone just going to come along and make a game where I can ride dinosaurs and sharks or something? Okay, it wouldn't make a point about society or some shit. Fuck reality. I know it sucks. I'm not saying metal gear needs to. Maybe an assassin's creed spinoff? Something? Something that's not trying to be so fucking dark and gritty everywhere and isn't trying to make 86 different political points?

This is why I love Saints Row IV and Far Cry 3 Blood Dragon. They both chose to rip apart things they love. Saints Row IV loves video games and does make fun of them, but in the end it says that video games are awesome and fantasy is awesome and being a big hero is awesome, so why not just be a badass? Hell, that's the objective. Be a badass. Far Cry 3 Blood Dragon is very much the same thing. In love with games and the 80's and willing to let you just do awesome shit when you want to do awesome shit.

And what do they get for it? Complaints. "Oh this is unrealistic" "Oh this is too wacky" "Why isn't this making a broad point about politics and culture or the nature of gang violence or war?" "Reign it in. No more wacky stuff. From here on out, it should be serious serious serious." I hope volition doesn't listen to the people who said SR IV was too wacky. I like wacky. I have always liked wacky. I have always liked fantasizing.

When I was younger, one of the first games I remember playing was cruisn' usa. At that time I wasn't allowed to drive real cars because I was at a young age. But cruisn' usa said "Screw that, give me a quarter, and drive like a maniac you crazy bastard!". Same thing with raiden, which let me take a superpowered plane and just explode everything. And again with X-wing, which let me blow things up in space.

So it was with most games I grew up with. Star Fox and lots of various nintendo 64 driving games. And battletanx, which had full sized nukes in it. You could launch a full sized nuke from a tank and blow everyone up. This was a game that was similar to a lot of car combat games at the time, but with tanks. Imagine a full sized nuke in something like twisted metal except all the vehicles are tanks. That's what it was like and it was incredible.

Rogue squadron, same as x-wing. Here, be luke skywalker for a few hours and defeat the empire by destroying all of their shit.

The GTA series. Holy fuck is that awesome. Now you can go wherever you want and blow stuff up and skydive and do all sorts of other crazy things. Until GTA IV came along, that is. Then GTA V came along, and while the basic stuff that makes free roam fun (Parachutes, airplanes, lots of explosive weapons, fun cheats) are all there, all of the humor feels it now has to make a point about how spoiled LA people are or how liberal liberals are or how republican republicans are. No more having a nudist, a housewife, and a pastor on a talk show to discuss morality. Now it's just politicians actually being slightly more sane than real politicians. Now all of a sudden, we have to make a point.

It's not bad for entertainment to make points about society, but god damn, does every piece of entertainment have to make points about society? Can't one just not try to talk about politics and just let me relax and escape this hell we all call the real world? Just a few more games than I get now. Is that too much to ask?
 

ZephrC

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Mar 9, 2010
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Leon Declis said:
You act like the only reason people might not like this game's story is because they don't get it, but I'm pretty sure that the opposite is true. Heck, the writers for Spec Ops have gone on record as saying that putting their game down in disgust and never playing it again is a good reaction to it.

This game takes that and adds terrible writing and a bunch of inappropriate sexual fetishism. Of course people are squicked out and want to do everything they can to avoid that crap. That is healthy.

Now you could certainly argue that this gives the game more value even if it's not very fun, but I would argue that while maybe that worked in Spec Ops, here in this game with all its standard Kojima goofiness it just doesn't function at all. There is just to much bizarre mood whiplash for any kind of message to develop. In fact it often comes across as approving of the very things is seeks to condemn. That's a failure of the game itself, not the audience.
 

Jandau

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Dec 19, 2008
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Leon Declis said:
"Peadophilia" he says, despite the fact she is 25. And a Prisoner of War. In a war camp. You know, what actually happens in these places. Rape is a real threat if you get captured and you're a women.
The boy is 13. He is made to have sex with a grown woman against his will. Yeah...
 

Yahtzee Croshaw

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I don't know what people are getting so upset over.

I've listened to the supposed rape tapes on youtube and all I hear is hack writing and piss poor voice acting.

Frankly I'm disappointed.

EDIT: If you want something that really gets your blood pumping watch the movie "the girl next door (2007)", now that's good writing and acting. Another good one (but not as good) is "the last house on the left". I have to warn ya though, its not for the faint of heart.

EDIT: I just remembered there was another movie "Irreversible", amazing scene, definitely not for the faint of heart. XD Really puts this pathetic Metal Gear shit is perspective.
 

Mikejames

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I'll just reminisce a bit on MGS1, where the level of quirky/violent/over-the-top undertones were a bit more manageable.


Caramel Frappe said:
I loved how Yahtzee knows Metal Gear enough to point out how it keeps treating their female characters.

"Metal Gearrrr... are you doing weird things again to female characters?"
"No..."
"What's that behind your back?"

Hahaha.
Quiet's character seems like a poster child for creepy implications.
 

RedDeadFred

Illusions, Michael!
May 13, 2009
4,896
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I've never been into these game and if the first page of this thread is anything to go off of (I'm not going to bother with the next three), I don't think I ever will. It all just sounds like a really awful anime that's trying desperately to be edgy. As far as the 30 dollar price point goes, when people ***** about companies regularly charging money for their tutorials in the future, I will point to this game and hope that the people who bought into this crap feel some sense of responsibility.
 

Sheo_Dagana

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Ugh. You hit the nail on the head completely here - I DID like what little gameplay there was, but the fact that I had to pay for a demo for a game we have no clear release date for is appalling. Someone told me I could get 5 hours out of it if I played all of the side missions, but that was also bullshit. Repeatable missions in the same level? No thanks. Don't get me wrong, I did them, but it wasn't fun.

This game just isn't what we were led to believe it would be. Kojima said that Ground Zeroes got so big it had to be it's own game, but there's no obvious sign of that being true here. There's no reason this game couldn't have been part of Phantom Pain.
 

Razhem

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This is fiction there really is "no line that cannot be crossed". What I do see is an incredibly lack of taste and hack writing at it's finest worthy of Kickass 2. Basically Paz being tortured in various ways could have been changed by a dog and the message would have been the same "the villian is very bad", because for Paz (must be feeling clever for calling her peace in Spanish...) it's never analyzed how this actually affects her.

Basically, this is not being "adult" or "dark", this is being juvenile and 90s comics edgy all over again just because you can. Basically, if you want to tackle the heavy stuff, you actually have to tackle, it, yes there was "torture" in MGS, but aside from not even getting the insinuation of Meryl being raped (which again adds nothing outside of "OOOH LOOK THEY SO BAD!" since physically and mentally she clearly doesn't seem any worse for wear), the torture we see is cartoon torture of being strapped to James Bond devise, after the session Snake is right and chipper so it's not like it ever had the balls to deal with the aftermath and certainly with the tone of the game it didn't seem it had to go nowhere near there.

Want to see something adult? Read the latest chapters of Attack on titan manga, [SPOILERS COMING] we had a secondary character tortured to death only to have a few chapters later, two prominent main characters torture the other torturers to get information, while being quite graphic, but more importantly, while making it very damn clear what the sequels of it for the tortured and how incredibly low hour "heroes" have sunk for it. There is also the Berserk manga where you get to see the brutal consequences on two main characters of rape, leaving tremendous mental scars on both, one becoming a violent frothing mess of a man and the other becoming a catatonic woman that can't deal with reality anymore.

Basically, if you want to add real life horrible issues, tackle them head on and to the end of it, if not, its just shock value and has no worth except for making kids feel all manly and say "I play adult games!".

As for the price thing, nothing else to add, its bullshit pure and simple, I mean, I'm glad people could enjoy it but anyone who bought it has to understand that is the reason a publishers know they can get away with this shit. We, as consumers, have to be responsible too if we want to get the best for our buck.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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04whim said:
I was watching an episode of Let's Drown Out the other day, Yahtzee's let's play series on YouTube with Gabriel, and they mentioned that one of the reasons the Star Wars prequels were so bad is because no one dared to challenge Lucas' decisions by that stage and the only reason the original trilogy came out well was because Lucas wasn't given complete unquestioned control on the project. I feel like Kojima's going much the same route.
I don't contest the Lucas theory, but Kojima's shitty movies-masquerading-as-games have been like that for over a decade now.

Leon Declis said:
You know, what actually happens in these places. Rape is a real threat if you get captured and you're a women.
And that....What? Makes it all better? Seriously don't know where you're going with this argument.

Yes. Because you don't like it, means no one should like it. Congratulations on being the stereotype of the Escapist community.
I do know where you're going with that, though. Into the realm of falsehoods I didn't say. In fact, if the only reason you had to quote me was to rant about the "so nobody should enjoy this" thing I neither said nor implied, then why exactly did you quote me? To turn me into a stereotype that I wasn't until you changed the script? Seriously, I'm puzzled here.

Once again, no one is defending the price. Stop making up extra things, we've got enough to discuss as it is (what with implied rape, torture, etc).
Well, yes. People have been defending the price. I can't imagine you've been following these things so closely and yet can't find people on the internet defending the pricing decision.

But the irony of accusing me of making things up? Errrr....You do remember the part where you attributed to me something I never said nor would ever say, right?
 

Yahtzee Croshaw

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Anyone remember the time when gangrape used to be funny in a game? Ah dungeon keeper, you're the product of a different time.
 

Vicioussama

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Surprised he didn't make jokes about Kojima putting himself in the game lol. Cause that's so fanfiction-esque it's hilarious.
 

Quellist

Migratory coconut
Oct 7, 2010
1,443
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Totally not suprised about any of this, i keep wondering when gamers at large will wake up to the fact that Kojima enjoys fucking over his fans.

$40 for a demo, gangrape scene, one map only.....its getting worse..

And as for the Two bombs thing, Kojima did exactly the same with Emma Emmerich in MGS2....protect her (or get a game over) all the way to her unavoidable death scene....again fucking over the fans.

As ive said before, Screw you Kojima, i wont buy your shit until you start taking fans seriously.
 

odinzeus

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Valderis said:
Anyone remember the time when gangrape used to be funny in a game? Ah dungeon keeper, you're the product of a different time.
Welcome to the age of oversensitivity."Muh sojiny" in gamez,games will make you serial killer and so on.R rated games can't have "R" stuff in them,it's offensive now.Good,I miss 90's PC gaming.
Is the escapist community by any chance fan forum of fox news?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKzF173GqTU
 

ToastiestZombie

Don't worry. Be happy!
Mar 21, 2011
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Quellist said:
Totally not suprised about any of this, i keep wondering when gamers at large will wake up to the fact that Kojima enjoys fucking over his fans.

$40 for a demo, gangrape scene, one map only.....its getting worse..

And as for the Two bombs thing, Kojima did exactly the same with Emma Emmerich in MGS2....protect her (or get a game over) all the way to her unavoidable death scene....again fucking over the fans.

As ive said before, Screw you Kojima, i wont buy your shit until you start taking fans seriously.
Gangrape scene? $40? Those just aren't true. There's a rape scene, but it isn't gangrape, and the game is only $40 in Australia where game prices are much higher than other places. At least get your facts right.
 

anthony87

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ToastiestZombie said:
Quellist said:
Totally not suprised about any of this, i keep wondering when gamers at large will wake up to the fact that Kojima enjoys fucking over his fans.

$40 for a demo, gangrape scene, one map only.....its getting worse..

And as for the Two bombs thing, Kojima did exactly the same with Emma Emmerich in MGS2....protect her (or get a game over) all the way to her unavoidable death scene....again fucking over the fans.

As ive said before, Screw you Kojima, i wont buy your shit until you start taking fans seriously.
Gangrape scene? $40? Those just aren't true. There's a rape scene, but it isn't gangrape
Don't forget that it's more or less hidden and not "shoved in your face" as someone said in a recent thread complaining about it.

But hey, there's no time to consider things like context or correct information when there so much moral posturing to be done y'know?
 

Mahoshonen

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Valderis said:
I don't know what people are getting so upset over.

I've listened to the supposed rape tapes on youtube and all I hear is hack writing and piss poor voice acting.

Frankly I'm disappointed.
I think the 'hack writing' is part of the reason why people are upset. I mean imagine if Ed Wood had made Schindler's List or something.
 

DaViller

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This whole bomb-vagina stuff actually made me more interrested in the final product, kind of curious how much more fucked up the whole thing can get.
 

Kenbo Slice

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Jun 7, 2010
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So...if a video game has a rape (not even visual) it's not okay, and if a film has a rape scene it's okay? These things fucking happen in real life. We as gamers can't live in a fucking world of sunshine and unicorns that shit rainbows. I wish more video games would do stuff like this. But only if it works in the context of the story.
 

ThatDarnCoyote

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anthony87 said:
The Metal Gear games have always had the fucked up stuff right along side the fun and the ninjas and robots and magic, the only reason people are getting their knickers so twisted now is because it's the "in" thing at the moment.

That last bit about knickers isn't directed towards you specifically, just wanted to avoid double posting. ^_^
That's sort of the problem, though. When you make a game series as bombastic and goofy and over-the-top as Metal Gear (to the point that its fans often defend it as intentional satire), it's awkward to then shoe-horn in serious topics. You've got your ninjas and cyborgs and possessed arms and fourth-wall breaking and weird dialogue filled with philosophical buzzwords, and then you're trying to make serious points about child soldiers, PMCs, and the horrors of war.

The abrupt tonal shifts between jokiness and seriousness are whiplash-inducing. And when a developer does that, they run the risk of either looking like they're treating the serious topics as a joke (in which case they look appalling), or looking like they mean the goofy stuff seriously (in which case they look insane). Tone can make or break a story.

People in this thread are invoking comparisons with [em]Spec Ops: The Line[/em]. Remember, [em]Spec Ops: The Line[/em] didn't end with you ascending the tower to have a 20-minute dialogue with Col. Konrad about the Singularity, at the end of which he throws off his cloak to reveal his gleaming cyborg body, and then you have a sword fight while he yells at you about genetic theory and nuclear deterrence.

Unless there's some DLC I missed.
 

Yahtzee Croshaw

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Kenbo Slice said:
So...if a video game has a rape (not even visual) it's not okay, and if a film has a rape scene it's okay? These things fucking happen in real life. We as gamers can't live in a fucking world of sunshine and unicorns that shit rainbows. I wish more video games would do stuff like this. But only if it works in the context of the story.
Games aren't real life,some people play them just to avoid things that happen in real life.
 

Kenbo Slice

Respect your surroundings
Jun 7, 2010
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the hidden eagle said:
Kenbo Slice said:
So...if a video game has a rape (not even visual) it's not okay, and if a film has a rape scene it's okay? These things fucking happen in real life. We as gamers can't live in a fucking world of sunshine and unicorns that shit rainbows. I wish more video games would do stuff like this. But only if it works in the context of the story.
Games aren't real life,some people play them just to avoid things that happen in real life.
I said only if it works in the context of the sorry and world the developers created.
 

Yahtzee Croshaw

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Kenbo Slice said:
the hidden eagle said:
Kenbo Slice said:
So...if a video game has a rape (not even visual) it's not okay, and if a film has a rape scene it's okay? These things fucking happen in real life. We as gamers can't live in a fucking world of sunshine and unicorns that shit rainbows. I wish more video games would do stuff like this. But only if it works in the context of the story.
Games aren't real life,some people play them just to avoid things that happen in real life.
I said only if it works in the context of the sorry and world the developers created.
And that hardly happens most of the time, rape scenes in games come off as just trying to be edgy or for that extra "shock factor".The only types of stories I've seen rape being handled correctly are those where people are already fucked up to begin with.

Storytelling in video games have a long way to go before they can handle things like rape and child abuse.Right now it's only used for the sake of it.
 

Kenbo Slice

Respect your surroundings
Jun 7, 2010
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the hidden eagle said:
Kenbo Slice said:
the hidden eagle said:
Kenbo Slice said:
So...if a video game has a rape (not even visual) it's not okay, and if a film has a rape scene it's okay? These things fucking happen in real life. We as gamers can't live in a fucking world of sunshine and unicorns that shit rainbows. I wish more video games would do stuff like this. But only if it works in the context of the story.
Games aren't real life,some people play them just to avoid things that happen in real life.
I said only if it works in the context of the sorry and world the developers created.
And that hardly happens most of the time, rape scenes in games come off as just trying to be edgy or for that extra "shock factor".The only types of stories I've seen rape being handled correctly are those where people are already fucked up to begin with.

Storytelling in video games have a long way to go before they can handle things like rape and child abuse.Right now it's only used for the sake of it.
I think we're at a point to where stories in games can use those subjects. However, I don't believe that the majority of gamers are ready for it.
 

Yahtzee Croshaw

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Kenbo Slice said:
the hidden eagle said:
Kenbo Slice said:
the hidden eagle said:
Kenbo Slice said:
So...if a video game has a rape (not even visual) it's not okay, and if a film has a rape scene it's okay? These things fucking happen in real life. We as gamers can't live in a fucking world of sunshine and unicorns that shit rainbows. I wish more video games would do stuff like this. But only if it works in the context of the story.
Games aren't real life,some people play them just to avoid things that happen in real life.
I said only if it works in the context of the sorry and world the developers created.
And that hardly happens most of the time, rape scenes in games come off as just trying to be edgy or for that extra "shock factor".The only types of stories I've seen rape being handled correctly are those where people are already fucked up to begin with.

Storytelling in video games have a long way to go before they can handle things like rape and child abuse.Right now it's only used for the sake of it.
I think we're at a point to where stories in games can use those subjects. However, I don't believe that the majority of gamers are ready for it.
The industry as a whole aren't ready for it.They still think sex scenes can't be used for anything but fanservice,same thing with nudity.It's not just the gaming community that can't handle mature subjects, it's also the game developers and publishers as well.
 

Luminous_Umbra

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Can someone please explain something to me? Not saying anyone on here necessarily does it, but why is it some people have a problem with villains in video games doing evil and sometimes horrifying things? I mean, why is it so shocking that a villain did something evil? Have we just been spoiled with too many "doing evil with good intentions" type of villains?

I ask because I've seen it happening in response to the questionable sequences mentioned in this video and thread.
 

Grach

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Luminous_Umbra said:
Can someone please explain something to me? Not saying anyone on here necessarily does it, but why is it some people have a problem with villains in video games doing evil and sometimes horrifying things? I mean, why is it so shocking that a villain did something evil? Have we just been spoiled with too many "doing evil with good intentions" type of villains?

I ask because I've seen it happening in response to the questionable sequences mentioned in this video and thread.
Probably has something to do with all that typical Hideo Kojima thing of having a schizophrenic tone for his games.
 

The Dead Singer

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the hidden eagle said:
Kenbo Slice said:
the hidden eagle said:
Kenbo Slice said:
the hidden eagle said:
Kenbo Slice said:
So...if a video game has a rape (not even visual) it's not okay, and if a film has a rape scene it's okay? These things fucking happen in real life. We as gamers can't live in a fucking world of sunshine and unicorns that shit rainbows. I wish more video games would do stuff like this. But only if it works in the context of the story.
Games aren't real life,some people play them just to avoid things that happen in real life.
I said only if it works in the context of the sorry and world the developers created.
And that hardly happens most of the time, rape scenes in games come off as just trying to be edgy or for that extra "shock factor".The only types of stories I've seen rape being handled correctly are those where people are already fucked up to begin with.

Storytelling in video games have a long way to go before they can handle things like rape and child abuse.Right now it's only used for the sake of it.
I think we're at a point to where stories in games can use those subjects. However, I don't believe that the majority of gamers are ready for it.
The industry as a whole aren't ready for it.They still think sex scenes can't be used for anything but fanservice,same thing with nudity.It's not just the gaming community that can't handle mature subjects, it's also the game developers and publishers as well.
I have a really severe problem with this thinking.

The thing is by these accounts, WHEN exactly is the industry going to be ready for it? You're never going to know because everytime someone introduces it you're just going to continue saying the industry isn't ready for it no matter how much time passes.

This thread makes it more or less clear that the industry needs to be forced into it for them to start understanding the gravity of the themes video games are scared of tackling. It's only until that happens that games will have a chance of being taken seriously as storytelling methods and art forms, and only then will they be hypothetically "Ready", though it would of course not matter by that point.
 

Lieju

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Luminous_Umbra said:
Can someone please explain something to me? Not saying anyone on here necessarily does it, but why is it some people have a problem with villains in video games doing evil and sometimes horrifying things? I mean, why is it so shocking that a villain did something evil? Have we just been spoiled with too many "doing evil with good intentions" type of villains?

I ask because I've seen it happening in response to the questionable sequences mentioned in this video and thread.
Well, should it be about the villain being evil? Especially something like rape, which is too often depicted as something where the actual victim and how it affects them is an afterthought?

And anyway, people aren't generally evil. A super-evil villain can work just fine, but being cartoonish like that doesn't then really fit well with trying to be serious and having a point and putting things like rape and torture in it.

The problem many people have is that they feel it's lazy writing.

Hey this guy is evil, thus torture and rape.
 

LenticularHomicide

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I'm actually surprised that Yahtzee thinks that "whoops, you missed the bomb in the girl's hoo-hoo, and she dies" is meant to be a surprise in a Metal Gear Solid game. Isn't the death of supposedly mission-critical hostages a mainstay of the series?

Here's a short list of the hostages or persons of interest you meet in the first few MG(S) games (that I have played):

Metal Gear 2: Kio Marv (dies, kicking off the trend)
MGS: Kenneth Baker (dies), Donald Anderson (dies), Hal Emmerich (he comes back, but in the original endings of MGS he just fucks off somewhere), Meryl Silverburgh (dies in one of the endings)
Metal Gear Ghost Babel (aka Metal Gear Solid, the Game Boy Color version): Jimmy Harks (dies), Chris Jenner (oddly, survives, possibly due to being a Meryl-surrogate)
MGS2: Richard Ames (dies), Emma Emmerich (dies)
MGS3: Granin (dies), Sokolov (survives, but the game initially fakes you out by implying that he was beaten to death)

After all that, I was under the impression that the main theme of MGS was "History repeats itself", "People never learn from history", and "One of the lessons not learnt is: Never send FOXHOUND in to rescue hostages; it's a kiss of death".
 

xqxm

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You mean they've thrown out mister "Got-Voice-Acting-Lessons-From-Skeletor"? I remember trying to play MGS3 on the PS2, hearing this tripe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWTn9eQf2sQ and immediately being so weirded out that I couldn't continue playing it. The fact that I was tripping over cutscenes every two seconds helped, too.
 

Quellist

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Oct 7, 2010
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anthony87 said:
ToastiestZombie said:
Quellist said:
Totally not suprised about any of this, i keep wondering when gamers at large will wake up to the fact that Kojima enjoys fucking over his fans.

$40 for a demo, gangrape scene, one map only.....its getting worse..

And as for the Two bombs thing, Kojima did exactly the same with Emma Emmerich in MGS2....protect her (or get a game over) all the way to her unavoidable death scene....again fucking over the fans.

As ive said before, Screw you Kojima, i wont buy your shit until you start taking fans seriously.
Gangrape scene? $40? Those just aren't true. There's a rape scene, but it isn't gangrape


Don't forget that it's more or less hidden and not "shoved in your face" as someone said in a recent thread complaining about it.

But hey, there's no time to consider things like context or correct information when there so much moral posturing to be done y'know?
Why? Kojima never let facts get in his way

Seriously though, you're nitpicking. Whatever the price its more akin to a demo than a full game and certainly not worth $40 wether they be US, Aussie or whatever and really, a rape scene as an Easter egg...are you going to defend that?

Also I assume you have no issue with my comparison of the two bombs nonsense to the Emma Emmerich death nonsense?
 

LenticularHomicide

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xqxm said:
You mean they've thrown out mister "Got-Voice-Acting-Lessons-From-Skeletor"? I remember trying to play MGS3 on the PS2, hearing this tripe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWTn9eQf2sQ and immediately being so weirded out that I couldn't continue playing it. The fact that I was tripping over cutscenes every two seconds helped, too.
Huh, that sounds...worse than I remembered it (though video games, as a rule, aren't known for their stellar voice acting, and that particular conversation is basically a recitation of a gun magazine article). I don't get the 'Skeletor' bit of your comments, though; his voice is action-tough-guy-gravelly, not cartoon-villainish-nasal.
 

anthony87

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Quellist said:
Why? Kojima never let facts get in his way
What facts? I can't even tell what this sentence is supposed to mean.

Seriously though, you're nitpicking.
I'm really not. All I said was that people are jumping to conclusions without having the right context or information

Whatever the price its more akin to a demo than a full game and certainly not worth $40 wether they be US, Aussie or whatever
I agree that the pricing is bullshit. I was kinda lucky in that regard because I only paid 20 quid for it where I live but if it was anything more than that there's no way in hell I would've gotten it.

and really, a rape scene as an Easter egg...are you going to defend that?
See this proves what I said about context and information, the fact that you refer to it as an "Easter egg" doesn't really help your case either. It's not an Easter egg, it's backstory, exposition, information on what's been going on and just how badly Chico and Paz were tortured or are you going to try and tell me that every bit of additional info in a game is now an Easter egg? Hell, have you even listened to the scene yourself or are you just basing everything on hearsay? Personally I think that even calling it a "rape scene" is a stretch, it's an interrogation. Yeah Chico being forced to have sex with Paz is a given and all that but it's neither heard nor seen.

As for defending it...well there's not really much need to.

Also I assume you have no issue with my comparison of the two bombs nonsense to the Emma Emmerich death nonsense?
I've no issue with the comparison but I don't really see what you're getting at with it. They're both characters you have to protect and they both die due to story reasons, big deal. Metal Gear Solid is hardly the first game that fucks over the player character once plot kicks in. Or do you just not like bad things happening in video games period?
 

Luminous_Umbra

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Lieju said:
Luminous_Umbra said:
Can someone please explain something to me? Not saying anyone on here necessarily does it, but why is it some people have a problem with villains in video games doing evil and sometimes horrifying things? I mean, why is it so shocking that a villain did something evil? Have we just been spoiled with too many "doing evil with good intentions" type of villains?

I ask because I've seen it happening in response to the questionable sequences mentioned in this video and thread.
Well, should it be about the villain being evil? Especially something like rape, which is too often depicted as something where the actual victim and how it affects them is an afterthought?

And anyway, people aren't generally evil. A super-evil villain can work just fine, but being cartoonish like that doesn't then really fit well with trying to be serious and having a point and putting things like rape and torture in it.

The problem many people have is that they feel it's lazy writing.

Hey this guy is evil, thus torture and rape.
Oh, it definitely needs to be handled maturely. I wasn't so much speaking just about this game as much as it was an example, as I've seen this happen with other games and other media.

Also, yes, people aren't "generally evil", but I feel the exclusion of morally bankrupt antagonists in story writing is poor choice in general.
 

Yahtzee Croshaw

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The Dead Singer said:
the hidden eagle said:
Kenbo Slice said:
the hidden eagle said:
Kenbo Slice said:
the hidden eagle said:
Kenbo Slice said:
So...if a video game has a rape (not even visual) it's not okay, and if a film has a rape scene it's okay? These things fucking happen in real life. We as gamers can't live in a fucking world of sunshine and unicorns that shit rainbows. I wish more video games would do stuff like this. But only if it works in the context of the story.
Games aren't real life,some people play them just to avoid things that happen in real life.
I said only if it works in the context of the sorry and world the developers created.
And that hardly happens most of the time, rape scenes in games come off as just trying to be edgy or for that extra "shock factor".The only types of stories I've seen rape being handled correctly are those where people are already fucked up to begin with.

Storytelling in video games have a long way to go before they can handle things like rape and child abuse.Right now it's only used for the sake of it.
I think we're at a point to where stories in games can use those subjects. However, I don't believe that the majority of gamers are ready for it.
The industry as a whole aren't ready for it.They still think sex scenes can't be used for anything but fanservice,same thing with nudity.It's not just the gaming community that can't handle mature subjects, it's also the game developers and publishers as well.
When the game industry can handle sex and nudity without self censoring,that's when they'll be ready for it.Sure they need to be forced to confront these subjects once and a while but it's just like with having more women in gaming.The game industry is a extremely stubborn beast and it's often best that they are coaxed into tackling mature matters without making it feel like they have to do it.

I have a really severe problem with this thinking.

The thing is by these accounts, WHEN exactly is the industry going to be ready for it? You're never going to know because everytime someone introduces it you're just going to continue saying the industry isn't ready for it no matter how much time passes.

This thread makes it more or less clear that the industry needs to be forced into it for them to start understanding the gravity of the themes video games are scared of tackling. It's only until that happens that games will have a chance of being taken seriously as storytelling methods and art forms, and only then will they be hypothetically "Ready", though it would of course not matter by that point.
 

satsugaikaze

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When Stephen Fry himself likes the game, you know shit's legit. =P

Metal Gear Solid? I mean what? Unbelievable craftsmanship and storytelling. Too big an adrenalin rush for one my age... Phew!

? Stephen Fry (@stephenfry) March 24, 2014 [https://twitter.com/stephenfry/statuses/447886994203770880]

In all seriousness, price tag is bullshit, obviously. I only got it for about $30 (ozgameshop.com is where it's at for us Aussies), but I think for most fans of MGS the game itself is awesome.

Also,

Grach said:
Having played Revengeance
The Last Melon said:
Ubisoft posts a trailer implying Laura Croft is about to be sexually assaulted
Remus said:
So glad I lost interest in MGS after the silly lazer mission in the first game.
xqxm said:
I remember trying to play MGS3 on the PS2, hearing this tripe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWTn9eQf2sQ and immediately being so weirded out that I couldn't continue playing it.
I feel these posts represent a lot of the posts going on in this thread. A fair bit of (occasionally, uninformed) opinion formed from hearsay and research without any real understanding of context, or only a cursory understanding of the games.

That said, Kojima's schizophrenic style of writing/storytelling and tone is definitely an acquired taste, not for the majority of players, and it's perfectly understandable when people get turned off by that especially.
 

Arppis

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04whim said:
I would think that having an unlockable audiotape 'reward' of the villain
having a young girl gangraped
is more than "leaning on the fence of being weird a little too hard". That's more like bulldozing the fence and jumping on it with clodhoppers.
Young woman. She's a double agent and she pretended to be young student before she got captured.

Yeah, rape is horrible thing, but this is fiction and they "cut off" the parts where the actual rape starts and ends. It's there to show how bad things can get when people aren't restricted by rules and codes of conduct with prisoners.

I don't think it was handeled as badly as people make it out to be, or maybe folks are just more sensitive than I am about this. I however just saw it as way to show how cruel the torture they had to go trough was and how deep people without rules & regulations can go.

That said I think this game's price is highway robbery. It's a fun little demo, but that's about it. Good thing I borrowed this from my friend. Hehe.
 

Arppis

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the hidden eagle said:
Kenbo Slice said:
the hidden eagle said:
Kenbo Slice said:
the hidden eagle said:
Kenbo Slice said:
So...if a video game has a rape (not even visual) it's not okay, and if a film has a rape scene it's okay? These things fucking happen in real life. We as gamers can't live in a fucking world of sunshine and unicorns that shit rainbows. I wish more video games would do stuff like this. But only if it works in the context of the story.
Games aren't real life,some people play them just to avoid things that happen in real life.
I said only if it works in the context of the sorry and world the developers created.
And that hardly happens most of the time, rape scenes in games come off as just trying to be edgy or for that extra "shock factor".The only types of stories I've seen rape being handled correctly are those where people are already fucked up to begin with.

Storytelling in video games have a long way to go before they can handle things like rape and child abuse.Right now it's only used for the sake of it.
I think we're at a point to where stories in games can use those subjects. However, I don't believe that the majority of gamers are ready for it.
The industry as a whole aren't ready for it.They still think sex scenes can't be used for anything but fanservice,same thing with nudity.It's not just the gaming community that can't handle mature subjects, it's also the game developers and publishers as well.
Well we can't get ready if we don't try to do these scenes. If we just say: "We are not ready" and don't try to do them, we never get ready. Practice makes perfect.

And there is a reason for the rape scenes, to show off how low people can sink when they are not regulated by rules. It's pretty much social commentary of current day events on the GITMO. Also it's there to show how ruthless the main villain is. It's not purely there for shock factor. :)
 

Quellist

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Oct 7, 2010
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anthony87 said:
Quellist said:
Why? Kojima never let facts get in his way
What facts? I can't even tell what this sentence is supposed to mean.

Seriously though, you're nitpicking.
I'm really not. All I said was that people are jumping to conclusions without having the right context or information

Whatever the price its more akin to a demo than a full game and certainly not worth $40 wether they be US, Aussie or whatever
I agree that the pricing is bullshit. I was kinda lucky in that regard because I only paid 20 quid for it where I live but if it was anything more than that there's no way in hell I would've gotten it.

and really, a rape scene as an Easter egg...are you going to defend that?
See this proves what I said about context and information, the fact that you refer to it as an "Easter egg" doesn't really help your case either. It's not an Easter egg, it's backstory, exposition, information on what's been going on and just how badly Chico and Paz were tortured or are you going to try and tell me that every bit of additional info in a game is now an Easter egg? Hell, have you even listened to the scene yourself or are you just basing everything on hearsay? Personally I think that even calling it a "rape scene" is a stretch, it's an interrogation. Yeah Chico being forced to have sex with Paz is a given and all that but it's neither heard nor seen.

As for defending it...well there's not really much need to.

Also I assume you have no issue with my comparison of the two bombs nonsense to the Emma Emmerich death nonsense?
I've no issue with the comparison but I don't really see what you're getting at with it. They're both characters you have to protect and they both die due to story reasons, big deal. Metal Gear Solid is hardly the first game that fucks over the player character once plot kicks in. Or do you just not like bad things happening in video games period?
If you weren't so busy deconstructing my post one line at a time you would have realised the "seriously though" identifies the first line as a nonsense comment. Beyond that believe what you like. Kojima disgusts me with his utter contempt for his audience...
 

ShirowShirow

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Well.

If anything, this thread and review has convinced me never to touch another one of Kojima's games.

I'll play the Next Metal Gear Rising if Platinum makes it, but It looks like me and MGS are done for.

There's a step too far on screwing over customers and there's a step too far on how a game portrays women and this game has jumped well past both.
 

ToastiestZombie

Don't worry. Be happy!
Mar 21, 2011
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ShirowShirow said:
Well.

If anything, this thread and review has convinced me never to touch another one of Kojima's games.

I'll play the Next Metal Gear Rising if Platinum makes it, but It looks like me and MGS are done for.

There's a step too far on screwing over customers and there's a step too far on how a game portrays women and this game has jumped well past both.
Boycotting Kojima's work for rape is a bit late seeing as there's been rape in MGS since the first one.
 
Jan 22, 2011
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Scars Unseen said:
Taunta said:
04whim said:
I would think that having an unloackable audiotape 'reward' of the villain having a young girl gangraped is more than "leaning on the fence of being weird a little too hard". That's more like bulldozing the fence and jumping on it with clodhoppers.
erttheking said:
nima55 said:
The only way that bomb-gut thing sounds like it could be any worse is if they put it in her uterus.
Oh don't worry, they didn't. They just put the second one in her vagina...no I am not making this up, I wish to Christ that I was.
Jesus, that just..."makes me extremely uncomfortable" is an understatement.
Imagine how she felt.

.
..
...
....
probably not good.
I'm having a very strong hunch she had a blast, waka waka waka....
..
...
....
.....
ugghhh i'm off to take a shower now.
 

anthony87

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Quellist said:
anthony87 said:
Quellist said:
Why? Kojima never let facts get in his way
What facts? I can't even tell what this sentence is supposed to mean.

Seriously though, you're nitpicking.
I'm really not. All I said was that people are jumping to conclusions without having the right context or information

Whatever the price its more akin to a demo than a full game and certainly not worth $40 wether they be US, Aussie or whatever
I agree that the pricing is bullshit. I was kinda lucky in that regard because I only paid 20 quid for it where I live but if it was anything more than that there's no way in hell I would've gotten it.

and really, a rape scene as an Easter egg...are you going to defend that?
See this proves what I said about context and information, the fact that you refer to it as an "Easter egg" doesn't really help your case either. It's not an Easter egg, it's backstory, exposition, information on what's been going on and just how badly Chico and Paz were tortured or are you going to try and tell me that every bit of additional info in a game is now an Easter egg? Hell, have you even listened to the scene yourself or are you just basing everything on hearsay? Personally I think that even calling it a "rape scene" is a stretch, it's an interrogation. Yeah Chico being forced to have sex with Paz is a given and all that but it's neither heard nor seen.

As for defending it...well there's not really much need to.

Also I assume you have no issue with my comparison of the two bombs nonsense to the Emma Emmerich death nonsense?
I've no issue with the comparison but I don't really see what you're getting at with it. They're both characters you have to protect and they both die due to story reasons, big deal. Metal Gear Solid is hardly the first game that fucks over the player character once plot kicks in. Or do you just not like bad things happening in video games period?
If you weren't so busy deconstructing my post one line at a time you would have realised the "seriously though" identifies the first line as a nonsense comment. Beyond that believe what you like. Kojima disgusts me with his utter contempt for his audience...
So you're just going to ignore everything I said and not bother with any counter points? I'm not that surprised to be honest.
 

anthony87

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ShirowShirow said:
there's a step too far on how a game portrays women
And what's that step? Surely you're not trying to say that bad shit can't happen to women?
 

Yahtzee Croshaw

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erttheking said:
nima55 said:
The only way that bomb-gut thing sounds like it could be any worse is if they put it in her uterus.
Oh don't worry, they didn't. They just put the second one in her vagina...no I am not making this up, I wish to Christ that I was.
I WANT THIS SKULLFACE GUY FOR THE PRESIDENT! This is awesome! Now I want to play this game, even that I don't have a PS4...Why can't there be more villains like that, seriously....

In all fairness thou, this is a very good motivation for the player to kill or somehow mutilate the the bastard and judging by the comments - it's working
 

Racecarlock

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Why are people talking about the industry as a whole and not just metal gear? I was never invested in the series in the first place, so I don't care what themes it tries to tackle.

When people talk about the ENTIRE INDUSTRY simply NEEDING to tackle subjects like that, that's when I start questioning things. I don't think we'll be seeing a rape scene in the next saints row game or child soldiers in Blood Dragon 2. Metal gear wants to do that, that's fine. But I'd rather the next galaga game didn't take on impoverished african nations.
 

Tim Chuma

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Why am I reminded of the phrase from the Diablo I demo when you try to go down to a lower level "That is forbidden in the demo"

There are Doom WADs that redid the entire game and still did not charge. The Army of Darkness one springs to mind as they even hacked the executable to redo the cheat codes (only works on DOS unfortunately).

I suppose the only way to make sure you do not get charged for things that used to be free is not buy the new version where they try to charge you.
 

Quellist

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Oct 7, 2010
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anthony87 said:
Quellist said:
anthony87 said:
Quellist said:
Why? Kojima never let facts get in his way
What facts? I can't even tell what this sentence is supposed to mean.

Seriously though, you're nitpicking.
I'm really not. All I said was that people are jumping to conclusions without having the right context or information

Whatever the price its more akin to a demo than a full game and certainly not worth $40 wether they be US, Aussie or whatever
I agree that the pricing is bullshit. I was kinda lucky in that regard because I only paid 20 quid for it where I live but if it was anything more than that there's no way in hell I would've gotten it.

and really, a rape scene as an Easter egg...are you going to defend that?
See this proves what I said about context and information, the fact that you refer to it as an "Easter egg" doesn't really help your case either. It's not an Easter egg, it's backstory, exposition, information on what's been going on and just how badly Chico and Paz were tortured or are you going to try and tell me that every bit of additional info in a game is now an Easter egg? Hell, have you even listened to the scene yourself or are you just basing everything on hearsay? Personally I think that even calling it a "rape scene" is a stretch, it's an interrogation. Yeah Chico being forced to have sex with Paz is a given and all that but it's neither heard nor seen.

As for defending it...well there's not really much need to.

Also I assume you have no issue with my comparison of the two bombs nonsense to the Emma Emmerich death nonsense?
I've no issue with the comparison but I don't really see what you're getting at with it. They're both characters you have to protect and they both die due to story reasons, big deal. Metal Gear Solid is hardly the first game that fucks over the player character once plot kicks in. Or do you just not like bad things happening in video games period?
If you weren't so busy deconstructing my post one line at a time you would have realised the "seriously though" identifies the first line as a nonsense comment. Beyond that believe what you like. Kojima disgusts me with his utter contempt for his audience...
So you're just going to ignore everything I said and not bother with any counter points? I'm not that surprised to be honest.
*Shrug* I didnt really see any points worth countering. You disagree with me and i cant honestly see anything i say changing your opinion so i was moving on, you should do the same.
 

blackrave

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If I ever make a game it will have character named Mr.Skullface that won't be a bad person
Seriously, what's wrong with all developers and ugly=evil attitude?