Zero Punctuation: Metroid Other M
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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God damn it, why did you have to remind me of that video? That was one of his worst, right next to Sony and Other M.Nomanslander said:
Ugh.
He's wrong on some points though.Josh_v2.0 said:
1: He accuses the video of obsession with Sexualization, when the whole point of the video was that the charactization of Samus that people say has been "Raped" (actually said by Spoony) is an entirely fan-made projection. The only mentions of Sexuality are in respone to the accusations made by many critics and fanboys alike, even on this very thread (probably this very page).
2. That is Moviebob's opinion. He apparently got it, the others apparently didn't.
3. He's only halfway wrong here. Moviebob's point is that the whole authorization thing is cosmetic in that is serves the exact same purpose, game-wise, that just happening to find it when you need it does: That you don't get to use the powerup/item until shortly after you need it. He is right in that it was badly implemented, though.
4. Nevermind the fact that the "strawman" is using the exact same arguments that you can read, again, on this very thread.
5. He's just flat-out wrong here. Though Samus probably still isn't a fully fleshed-out character yet, she's still been developed a damn far sight better than the general assumption.
I've responded to that video, so I'll leave it here;BlueInkAlchemist said:
I haven't played the game, and don't really plan to, but from what I've heard Other M was just badly written and did not characterize Samus as a character properly. I'm sure they could have done much better with it. It's really just Team Ninja not handling the source material properly.
The thing about "projection" is that sometimes it helps the character develop more. Not everything absolutely has to be explained via text in a game, you can make characterization from the gameplay itself. AKA: subtlety
Lets look at Shadow of the Collosus. Wander brings a dead girl to a forbidden valley to bring her to life, this indicates that he holds deep feelings for her. In gameplay, he can barely hold the sword or swing it properly, yet he can aim a bow and arrow very well on horseback, indicating he's possibly a horse archer. When he falls down and experiences extreme pain, he doesn't get up immediately, showing that he's not a superhuman yet he's willing to slay these huge collossi just to bring a girl to life, showing he's stubborn, never letting go. None of this is "explained", but you can easily deduce this from the gameplay itslef.
If, in a sequel, Wander was portrayed as a spoiled brat who's heir to the throne and he hates his father, that would be a pretty jarring change in character (not saying Other M does a change as significant as that, just an example). While we may know nothing of of Wander's character, nothing in the previous game indicated a past like this, so unless they play with it really really well, it's not going to slide.
Now with Other M, think of the other Metroid games (I've played a few of them, but I'm gathering this from other impressions). The games are all about exploration, isolation, and lonliness. You explore vast environments in foreign planets, not a single human soul in sight, your only companion is your arm canon. Because of this, you can assume that Samus has rarely had human contact, more or less a loner. Samus is revered as a fearless bounty hunter (apparently), so you can assume that she's independent and "plays by her own rules", and in fact in Metroid: Fusion (so I'm told) Samus is given orders by a computer, but she even states that she dislikes taking orders, again a sign of independence.
With Other M, apparantly none of that get into play here. She's portrayed as weak amongst superior males (apparently, again, I haven't played it, just trying to see it from their perspective) and she deliberately takes orders. She's a fearless bounty hunter who plays by her own rules (we can assume that through gameplay) yet she is shown as being subservient to another's orders. While, as you said, we know next to nothing of Samus as a character through general story, you can deduce and inference her character through her actions. Her actions build her character, not her gender.
I don't know if any of that is true, as I said I'm going from what other people have played of the game (I've played some Metroids myself), but overall I can see where people got the idea that Samus was an isolated, lonely character and an independant woman considering that women in video games at the time was unheard of. Just because we "projected" our own ideas to the character does not mean that they're wrong to assume that. You don't need extensive text boxes of backstory to define a character, you tell who somebody is through their actions.
I've never heard of the argument that "because it's made in Japan, it's sexist!" or whatever you said, or that Samus must be stoic/emotionless terminator. Just that Team Ninja didn't do what it could to developer her properly. Samus may very well have had daddy issues or have strong maternal feelings out of something she willingly gave up to lab experiments (from what I've been told), but from what I can tell, Team Ninja didn't really do a good job at presenting it.
The thing about "projection" is that sometimes it helps the character develop more. Not everything absolutely has to be explained via text in a game, you can make characterization from the gameplay itself. AKA: subtlety
Lets look at Shadow of the Collosus. Wander brings a dead girl to a forbidden valley to bring her to life, this indicates that he holds deep feelings for her. In gameplay, he can barely hold the sword or swing it properly, yet he can aim a bow and arrow very well on horseback, indicating he's possibly a horse archer. When he falls down and experiences extreme pain, he doesn't get up immediately, showing that he's not a superhuman yet he's willing to slay these huge collossi just to bring a girl to life, showing he's stubborn, never letting go. None of this is "explained", but you can easily deduce this from the gameplay itslef.
If, in a sequel, Wander was portrayed as a spoiled brat who's heir to the throne and he hates his father, that would be a pretty jarring change in character (not saying Other M does a change as significant as that, just an example). While we may know nothing of of Wander's character, nothing in the previous game indicated a past like this, so unless they play with it really really well, it's not going to slide.
Now with Other M, think of the other Metroid games (I've played a few of them, but I'm gathering this from other impressions). The games are all about exploration, isolation, and lonliness. You explore vast environments in foreign planets, not a single human soul in sight, your only companion is your arm canon. Because of this, you can assume that Samus has rarely had human contact, more or less a loner. Samus is revered as a fearless bounty hunter (apparently), so you can assume that she's independent and "plays by her own rules", and in fact in Metroid: Fusion (so I'm told) Samus is given orders by a computer, but she even states that she dislikes taking orders, again a sign of independence.
With Other M, apparantly none of that get into play here. She's portrayed as weak amongst superior males (apparently, again, I haven't played it, just trying to see it from their perspective) and she deliberately takes orders. She's a fearless bounty hunter who plays by her own rules (we can assume that through gameplay) yet she is shown as being subservient to another's orders. While, as you said, we know next to nothing of Samus as a character through general story, you can deduce and inference her character through her actions. Her actions build her character, not her gender.
I don't know if any of that is true, as I said I'm going from what other people have played of the game (I've played some Metroids myself), but overall I can see where people got the idea that Samus was an isolated, lonely character and an independant woman considering that women in video games at the time was unheard of. Just because we "projected" our own ideas to the character does not mean that they're wrong to assume that. You don't need extensive text boxes of backstory to define a character, you tell who somebody is through their actions.
I've never heard of the argument that "because it's made in Japan, it's sexist!" or whatever you said, or that Samus must be stoic/emotionless terminator. Just that Team Ninja didn't do what it could to developer her properly. Samus may very well have had daddy issues or have strong maternal feelings out of something she willingly gave up to lab experiments (from what I've been told), but from what I can tell, Team Ninja didn't really do a good job at presenting it.
Tl
r (though I hope you do), just because we were never explicitly told about Samus as a character, there's still a lot you can inference from the Metroid games. And you could go all meta with it saying "Samus is obedient because she's following our orders on her!", though that really doesn't hold up since, well, how else are you going to play the game?But I haven't played the game myself, so I can't judge, I'm just going off what other people are saying. But no matter what I say, one thing remains consistent from what I've read;
Metroid: Other M is just badly written. I mean, seriously, how the hell can you keep a straight face here? [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHllGUpXwk0] And that's just the the first cutscene!
Spoken in a dull, monotone voice, "I awoke to a familiar voice of a quarantine officer...a dream, I had been reliving the tragic moments of my past. Thanks to the hyperbeam, which was given somehow by The baby...The explosion destroyed planet Zebis, along with The baby..."
That's just inexcusable bad writing. No other Metroid game had to stoop down to explaining every minute detail, it was all presented subtly with pacing.
Yahtzee you nitpicking bastard... lol
I actually enjoyed this game. There were several things I had a problem with, but they were small potatoes compared to the fun I had playing. I agree with HALF of this review, but the problems arent as bad as hinted. Yes this game was advertised as having voice acting, because metroid titles have never had Samus reading her usually sparse dialogue out loud before. The Ridley freakout is understandable in the same vein that she KNEW he was dead, due to planet blowing up, and yet here he is trying to kill her on the other side of the galaxy in a GF installation. Seeing many of the enemies in the Metroid series, it's easy to believe Ridley can handle a lava bath. But a planetary explosion? In all, this wasn't exactly as good as the Prime games, but not being entirely as good as one of the Gamecube's best games ever doesn't mean it's a terrible game by any means. I'd give it a 7 with Prime being an 8.5 and Assassin's Creed 2 being a 10. But the Prime games have little replay value, whereas in Other M if you liked the game the first time, you're probably not going to go "it's cool but I'm Metroided out." So for that alone I bump it up to 7.75. Still not what "reviewers" might call a buy-worthy game, but I like it.
Note: anything in the range of 7 or above in a Game Informer-style rating system is in the category of "good." 8 is "very good," 9 is "amazing," and 10 is "perfect."
I actually enjoyed this game. There were several things I had a problem with, but they were small potatoes compared to the fun I had playing. I agree with HALF of this review, but the problems arent as bad as hinted. Yes this game was advertised as having voice acting, because metroid titles have never had Samus reading her usually sparse dialogue out loud before. The Ridley freakout is understandable in the same vein that she KNEW he was dead, due to planet blowing up, and yet here he is trying to kill her on the other side of the galaxy in a GF installation. Seeing many of the enemies in the Metroid series, it's easy to believe Ridley can handle a lava bath. But a planetary explosion? In all, this wasn't exactly as good as the Prime games, but not being entirely as good as one of the Gamecube's best games ever doesn't mean it's a terrible game by any means. I'd give it a 7 with Prime being an 8.5 and Assassin's Creed 2 being a 10. But the Prime games have little replay value, whereas in Other M if you liked the game the first time, you're probably not going to go "it's cool but I'm Metroided out." So for that alone I bump it up to 7.75. Still not what "reviewers" might call a buy-worthy game, but I like it.
Note: anything in the range of 7 or above in a Game Informer-style rating system is in the category of "good." 8 is "very good," 9 is "amazing," and 10 is "perfect."
While all true, none of these examples have the presence of deep rooted fears and internal doubts about herself for Samus. They're small moments of clarity, or reaching out distantly into the past.SAMAS said:
Tagging a name to her Ships' AI is a fair challenge to her previous relationship to Adam, but does that really explain why she would willingly place herself in immediate life threatening danger because he didn't say she could correct the situation, in specific relevance to the lava pits in Other M.
So it is decided then. Metroid: Other M is officially one of the biggest gaming shitstorms of 2010.
There are clear indications of the characterisation we are supposed to have drawn for Samus from the limited details previously provided though. The original Metroid manual states outright that she is considered to be the best of the bounty hunters, who are only brought in when existing Federation forces are simply not up to snuff. Even before she saved the galaxy seven times over she was literally considered the single hardest person in the universe.SAMAS said:
It's clear from the references to the Alien franchise (especially the adoptive motherhood bit between Aliens and Super Metroid) that we're meant to draw our impression of Samus from Ripley, y'know, that woman who went alone into the alien queen's nest, stared her down, and then blew up all her shit, all to take her adoptive daughter back.
So if the impression of the character the fans have which has been so thoroughly subverted here is only a projection, it's a projection which was guided heavily by the author.
The unfortunate thing about the writing is you can't really blame it on Team Ninja, Yoshio Sakamoto wrote and directed the game, for those of you who don't know Yoshio Sakamoto is the co-creator of the Metroid series and has directed all the games except Metroid 2: Return of Samus
That pisses me off more than anything else, he's profaned his own work
That pisses me off more than anything else, he's profaned his own work
The only fully-clothed female game protagonist that doesn't sit around waiting to be rescued all day, and now they've fucked it up. Thanks Project M, you're really doing a great job of pushing equality in the gaming world.
If you ever get around to owning one, I'd suggest checking Other M out. The story isn't the hardest to predict, but there are a few moments of absolute characterization that rival that of any protagonist, especially when Ridley shows up, and you see Samus confront something that by rights she should have killed long, long ago, yet still hangs around to terrorize her.BlueInkAlchemist said:
You referenced Bob's bit, and in fairness he did cover most of what caused the untold fervor of anger. How a woman who's openly expressing her motherly instincts is a weak personality I'll never understand, but I suppose in context of the lumbering block of meat that comprises most protagonists, having concern that naturally occurs for something you want to protect is a risible trait. In her reflections Samus sounds like an actual person having gone through a traumatic event, which she clearly has, so it's a bit like crying bullshit that she shouldn't emote when the most recent thing she was emotionally attached gets smeared across the walls.
And you seem quite quick, Yahtzee, to cry out that the whole father-figure complex that Samus has with Adam is character weakening when you yourself, multiple times over your continual fawning over that aloof aristocratic prat of a prince, have said that it was central to the character's development and personality. For a character like Samus, raised by the Chozo, lacking actual familial ties insofar as we know, how is forming a relationship with a man she would admire as if he were a father demeaning to the character? The little we know of Samus from the minutia of expository story we have about her upbringing is mostly that of loneliness, hardship, and struggle. Compared to most of your oft-referenced targets for praise, Samus actually has a reason to be alone, resourceful, and detached from the things around her, yet when she forms an attachment only to watch the object or person of her affections destroy itself for her sake, she's supposed to take it all in stride?
At least stay consistent in your fanboy-panderings, would you mind?
So, I watched the MovieBob video and now I have to say that he brings more good points to the discussion so he wins. Basically.
So, now I have a review that says nothing good and I have a review that says nothing bad. >D Common guys, games have good parts and bad parts.
The story: I'm not getting into it, I'll just say MovieBob won.
The gameplay: I personally played it and the switch to FP sucks, but the rest is really really really fun.
I still like this game, but I would of loved it if they used the nunchuck and allowed you to move around in FP view. I say that because it really breaks the flow of the game.
~Rahl
So, now I have a review that says nothing good and I have a review that says nothing bad. >D Common guys, games have good parts and bad parts.
The story: I'm not getting into it, I'll just say MovieBob won.
The gameplay: I personally played it and the switch to FP sucks, but the rest is really really really fun.
I still like this game, but I would of loved it if they used the nunchuck and allowed you to move around in FP view. I say that because it really breaks the flow of the game.
~Rahl
Portal, Half-Life 2, TimeSplitters, Amnesia: The Dark Descent, Thief: The Dark Project, Deus Ex, System Shock II, Bioshock and a lot of others would all like a word with you.Lordofthesuplex said:
I think Bob's completely wrong about the genre. To me it's the best one to experience true immersion in. When an FPS is good with a rich environments, story and characters, like Half-Life 2 and Bioshock, it's REALLY good and to say that's it's the most uncreative genre is a laugh.
Debates don't work like that, it was the biggest and most glaring problem with the game and everyone knows it.MasterRahl said:
I need to find that Citizen Kane gif. Like I said in a previous post, this entire debacle, to me, seems like the equivalent of backing out of a serious relationship just you don't have to commit. Because, y'know, there are things to LOSE at that point. It also says to me that the gaming industry has done a VERY bad job of giving us protagonists that have actual problems, flaws, and insecurities. So when one DOES come around we reject it for no real reason.BehattedWanderer said:
