Zero Punctuation: Papers, Please and Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons

[Miroluck]

While it would be fun to believe you have stepped out of a time machine I'm going to have to assume you are a troll.

Not another time, simply another place, I believe. Is my views "outdated"? Maybe that's because I have not been taught progressive ways of tolerasty.

 

[Jandau]

I love how a absolutely throwaway joke made this thread burst into flames like powdered plutonium.

Came into the thread to see some followup jokes about this week's ZP, ran into into a transsexual flamewar. It's like walking into your local mom&pop bakery to pick up some muffins only to find a Satanic sacrifice ritual in progress...

 

[crimsonshrouds]

and still acknowledge that a man with a consistent sexual preference for men who identify as women is most definitely not straight.

If someone identifies as a woman, they're a woman. They're not "men who identify as women", they're women.

And the third whiner.

You know the reason you three people made me wanna reply to you'll? I was on the receiving end of some nice bit of bile and hatred at work today. Im an Atheist by the way and i live in the bible belt.

You three are complaining about some jokes on a video with absolutely no vitriol or hatred behind them. There was no demeaning here or anything of that nature. You three are so soft skinned that this bothered you?

You three are a bunch of sad individuals who have wasted my time and a bunch of other peoples time with your pointless whining over something that had no hatred whatsoever. How about you worry about those that espouse hatred instead of jokes?

Right, because you being an athiest is totally the same as someone being transgender, right? And how have I "wasted your time"? I didn't make you read my comment, you could have skipped right over it. In fact, you had to collate those three quotes for your post so, in fact, you wasted your own time.

Maybe when the transgender community stops having the highest rate of suicide and stops being one of the most-targeted groups for assault/abuse/murder we'd be able to actually talk about things being 'jokes' or 'hatred'. And you - yes, you - cannot tell people what is or isn't offensive, because it's *subjective*. You have no 'right' to tell me or others that we cannot (or shouldn't) be offended by something. We all know Yahtzee is offensive, most of us have probably watched him for years, but this - for me - was when he crossed the line.

Also, it's not about "worrying about those who espouse hatred". It's about challenging ignorance, because ignorance is just as hurtful and as damaging as hatred can be. If we don't stand up and say "No, that was too far", then nothing will change.

The problem? There is no ignorance here. You have basically shown that there can be no talking or discussion with your community. Your community overreacts to things based on your actions. The suicide thing being brought up multiple times doesn't show people's ignorance. It shows that you have a victim complex meaning you are always the victim whether or not you are being victimized. If you have watched Yahtzee for years without getting upset over these jokes proves what I say. Because quite a few dead jews gypsies and homosexuals would be offended by a lot of Yahtzee's nazi jokes.

Oh i don't equate my self or other atheist with transgender people. But we are pretty much part of hated groups. All you have done is hurt your own community and over what? A stupid joke. You are not challenging ignorance, just wasting time playing the victim when there isn't anyone here to harm you.

 

[JimB]

Then you're not reallly in a relashionship, sorry. Relationships do not become real until you have known each other in person for at least some time, and certainly not until you have personally met.
Hate to spoil your happiness, but if she asks to help her with money or something - do not send her anything under any circumstances and stop contacting her immediately. Too many conmen use that method now.

Just for the record, I did not say this. Someone messed up their quote tags somewhere along the way.

It doesn't matter what someone identifies as.

It matters significantly more than what you identify them as.

This reminds me of the Jimquistion where Jim pointed out that, just because the Asari are supposed to be genderless, does not make Femshepard having sex with Liara any less lesbian. That's because the Asari have a human female form.

No, it's because the character is fictional but was given a female form in a cheap, ridiculous dodge to pander to people with lesbian fetishes while trying to say there's no scandalous homosexuality going on in the game.

(Aside: When I logged on, this thread had one hundred and forty-three pages on it. Now it has six. I really hope that was some kind of error and not a hundred pages of spam and trolling that just got deleted.)

 

[Miroluck]

Then you're not reallly in a relashionship, sorry. Relationships do not become real until you have known each other in person for at least some time, and certainly not until you have personally met.
Hate to spoil your happiness, but if she asks to help her with money or something - do not send her anything under any circumstances and stop contacting her immediately. Too many conmen use that method now.

Just for the record, I did not say this. Someone messed up their quote tags somewhere along the way.

Just a typo. It's fixed.

 

[JimB]

Just for the record, I did not say this. Someone messed up their quote tags somewhere along the way.

Just a typo. It's fixed.

I appreciate that, sir.

 

[Zombie Badger]

I doesn't matter what someone identifies as. A male is biologically male. Their chromosomes are XY. Putting on a dress and wearing makeup is not going to change that.

Someone who is transgender is mentally the opposite gender to their physical sex, and as far as their physical sex goes, I'd say that hormone replacement therapy and surgery to the point someone would need to be a gynecologist to tell that you hadn't always been the way you are more than crosses that boundary.

I know that Yahtzee regularly makes jokes at the expense of any and all groups of persons and I find them very amusing, but now he made a joke at the expense of a group of persons which I have emotional investment in! I am horribly offended and can no longer watch this video series.

The problem is not that Yahtzee made an offensive joke. He does that all the time and to pretty much everyone. The thing is though that those jokes were intended to be offensive and regardless of taste I will not complain about because that is the point of the. The problem is the politician joke was not intended to be offensive, as it is just a slight variation on the classic closeted politician joke in which the joke is at the politician's expense. Yahtzee's joke however relies on the view that transgender people cannot be considered anything but their physical birth sex prior to surgery and only works if you believe that view, and the fact that Yahtzee made a joke reliant on that has the unfortunate implication that he subscribes to that view, with is both demonstrably wrong and has long been used to denigrate transgender people. If Yahtzee had made an offensive joke about transgender people intentionally, I might consider it offensive but I would not be complaining right now.

 

[Evonisia]

I know that Yahtzee regularly makes jokes at the expense of any and all groups of persons and I find them very amusing, but now he made a joke at the expense of a group of persons which I have emotional investment in! I am horribly offended and can no longer watch this video series.

What I got from this was "Yahtzee can insult whoever or whatever he wants, so long as it's not something I like/am a part of/support".

 

[Teoes]

I love how a absolutely throwaway joke made this thread burst into flames like powdered plutonium.

Came into the thread to see some followup jokes about this week's ZP, ran into into a transsexual flamewar. It's like walking into your local mom&pop bakery to pick up some muffins only to find a Satanic sacrifice ritual in progress...

Quite. My money's on next week's Extra Punctuation being an interesting read. I wonder what on Earth he'll be out to discuss.

 

[EvilRoy]

The thing is, Yahtzee is saying that anyone who would have sex with a pre-op transgender person would be gay, which implies that any pre-op or non-op people cannot be considered in any way to be their desired gender. Now, the thing with the definition of gay and straight is that they are not based on genitalia, instead being based on gender. As strange as it may sound, being attracted to penis does not make you gay. Being attracted to people of the same gender (regardless of their genitals) does. This can be seen in that MtF transsexual porn is exclusively consumed by straight men (Details on FtM porn is hard to find and its existence is often debated). Gay men (such as myself) are not attracted to women, regardless of their genitalia, and MtF transgender individuals are not considered attractive to gay men due to them being distinctly female.

I'm wondering if you are able to cite precedence for this belief? After reading your comment I looked into the matter and I am unable to find any sources that concur with your statement, unless you are working from an entirely colloquial basis.

It seems to me that simple etymology demonstrates that your statement, though having meaning in a social sense, does not actually conform to the meaning of the word. Simply: Homo - from the Greek homos meaning "same" and Sexual - from the Latin Sexualis meaning "sexual" as pertaining to "sex". Same is readily defined, and sex as defined by Merriam-Webster is "either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures".

To my mind this leaves no room for debate with respect to the self identified gender of any individuals under consideration, as gender is not considered in the definition of the word. The only point of debate I can see is the question of whether a post of MtF or reverse can be considered to have altered their primary reproductive structures enough to be considered as the target sex.

 

[Zombie Badger]

I'm wondering if you are able to cite precedence for this belief? After reading your comment I looked into the matter and I am unable to find any sources that concur with your statement, unless you are working from an entirely colloquial basis.

It seems to me that simple etymology demonstrates that your statement, though having meaning in a social sense, does not actually conform to the meaning of the word. Simply: Homo - from the Greek homos meaning "same" and Sexual - from the Latin Sexualis meaning "sexual" as pertaining to "sex". Same is readily defined, and sex as defined by Merriam-Webster is "either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures".

To my mind this leaves no room for debate with respect to the self identified gender of any individuals under consideration, as gender is not considered in the definition of the word. The only point of debate I can see is the question of whether a post of MtF or reverse can be considered to have altered their primary reproductive structures enough to be considered as the target sex.

My man evidence for my statement that being into pre-op transwomen is not gay is that homosexual men (like myself) are not attracted to them. You will rarely if ever find gay porn sites with MtF porn on them, for example. If gay men are not into something, then it cannot be considered gay, just like with having sex with women who have vaginas. As far as defining someone as a man or a woman goes, I'll take their gender identity as the defining characteristic every time. The physical transformation is more important because it allows the person to feel comfortable with their body, which can be a great deal of stress for them.

 

[EvilRoy]

I'm wondering if you are able to cite precedence for this belief? After reading your comment I looked into the matter and I am unable to find any sources that concur with your statement, unless you are working from an entirely colloquial basis.

It seems to me that simple etymology demonstrates that your statement, though having meaning in a social sense, does not actually conform to the meaning of the word. Simply: Homo - from the Greek homos meaning "same" and Sexual - from the Latin Sexualis meaning "sexual" as pertaining to "sex". Same is readily defined, and sex as defined by Merriam-Webster is "either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures".

To my mind this leaves no room for debate with respect to the self identified gender of any individuals under consideration, as gender is not considered in the definition of the word. The only point of debate I can see is the question of whether a post of MtF or reverse can be considered to have altered their primary reproductive structures enough to be considered as the target sex.

My man evidence for my statement that being into pre-op transwomen is not gay is that homosexual men (like myself) are not attracted to them. You will rarely if ever find gay porn sites with MtF porn on them, for example. If gay men are not into something, then it cannot be considered gay, just like with having sex with women who have vaginas. As far as defining someone as a man or a woman goes, I'll take their gender identity as the defining characteristic every time. The physical transformation is more important because it allows the person to feel comfortable with their body, which can be a great deal of stress for them.

That... is not a compelling argument. Are you at least able to cite evidence that your claim with respect to homosexual males not being attracted to MtF is universal rather than simply being a personal preference you hold?

I cannot accept your claims with respect to pornography acting as a demonstration of this, as one similarly rarely finds pornographic websites containing both MtF and heterosexual pornography. Transsexuals are apparently categorized arbitrarily separately by purveyors of porn, much like websites catering specifically to men who like extremely large women and those catering specifically to men who like extremely thin women.

With respect to your statements on personal identity defining individuals, it is a fair point but unrelated to the discussion. The word homosexual has no relation to or basis in gender, only physical sex. Checking a tangent - I can find no evidence of the word gay being used as slang for homosexum, which is what you are actually describing (sexum being Latin for gender - that is, "same gender" attraction).

The game takes place in a soviet bloc. You don't lose your job for making mistakes, you just lose your wages. It's not about long-term career prospects, it's about keeping your family from starving, going cold and getting sick and dying.

I see, I wasn't aware of how jobs are distributed and held in the Soviet Bloc. Thanks for telling me that, I'll take some time to learn about it.

 

[Zombie Badger]

I cannot accept your claims with respect to pornography acting as a demonstration of this, as one similarly rarely finds pornographic websites containing both MtF and heterosexual pornography. Transsexuals are apparently categorized arbitrarily separately by purveyors of porn, much like websites catering specifically to men who like extremely large women and those catering specifically to men who like extremely thin women.

With respect to your statements on personal identity defining individuals, it is a fair point but unrelated to the discussion. The word homosexual has no relation to or basis in gender, only physical sex. Checking a tangent - I can find no evidence of the word gay being used as slang for homosexum, which is what you are actually describing (sexum being Latin for gender - that is, "same gender" attraction).

I will admit my ability to cite sources on my claims are somewhat limited here, and I am largely working with my own experiences. Quick google searches only really turn up articles about straight men being attracted to transwomen, although I have found stuff about gay men being attracted to transmen. All I can really say is that in all my time on the internet, I have heard many straight men refer to their attraction to transwomen, but no gay men referring to the same. I also think we have different porn sites, and every large scale heterosexual site I have seen has a specific category for MtF porn (usually labled 'shemale').

Regarding the difference between homosexuality and homoromanticism, I have to thank you for reminding me of that, as I had forgotten. You do make an interesting point, but unfortunately in the public consciousness the two are usually considered indistinguishable so in the when people makes jokes on the subject the distinction is almost always lost on them.

 

[EvilRoy]

I cannot accept your claims with respect to pornography acting as a demonstration of this, as one similarly rarely finds pornographic websites containing both MtF and heterosexual pornography. Transsexuals are apparently categorized arbitrarily separately by purveyors of porn, much like websites catering specifically to men who like extremely large women and those catering specifically to men who like extremely thin women.

With respect to your statements on personal identity defining individuals, it is a fair point but unrelated to the discussion. The word homosexual has no relation to or basis in gender, only physical sex. Checking a tangent - I can find no evidence of the word gay being used as slang for homosexum, which is what you are actually describing (sexum being Latin for gender - that is, "same gender" attraction).

I will admit my ability to cite sources on my claims are somewhat limited here, and I am largely working with my own experiences. Quick google searches only really turn up articles about straight men being attracted to transwomen, although I have found stuff about gay men being attracted to transmen. All I can really say is that in all my time on the internet, I have heard many straight men refer to their attraction to transwomen, but no gay men referring to the same. I also think we have different porn sites, and every large scale heterosexual site I have seen has a specific category for MtF porn (usually labled 'shemale').

Regarding the difference between homosexuality and homoromanticism, I have to thank you for reminding me of that, as I had forgotten. You do make an interesting point, but unfortunately in the public consciousness the two are usually considered indistinguishable so in the when people makes jokes on the subject the distinction is almost always lost on them.

In as far as porn sites, I neglected to include "porn aggregation" websites as part of my statement as they typically also include some sort of homosexual section for each gender, somewhat diminishing their value as a point of comparison. Additionally, it comes to mind that a homosexual individual and a heterosexual individual, when searching for porn, might tailor their own search terms in subtle ways such that results at least somewhat respond to personal preference regardless of target. That is unsubstantiated of course, although I'm curious to look into it now.

With respect to intent in jokemaking, I would more readily argue that homosexual is the most likely meaning, simply because the inescapable torrent of news streaming from the United States is currently focused squarely on same-sex marriage and the multitudes of so forths and furthers involved with it. I feel this is reason enough to believe the public consciousness is focused primarily on same sex as of late, rather than same-gender, and additionally because the matter of 'gender' with regards to transsexual individuals is often hotly debated and unfixed in some countries, and a complete non issue in others.

 

[Toilet]

2008 - Yahtzee makes an uncountable amount of gay jokes in his Army of Two review; zero fucks were given.
2013 - Yahtzee makes a single joke about performing fellatio on pre-op transsexuals; The Escapist explodes.

If you suck dick and you are a dude then there is a good chance you are gay regardless of what the dick is attached to or what the owner of the dick identifies as. Did the definition of gay change in the last 5 years or something?

Also I like Papers, Please as well, it's the most fun I have had being a bureaucrat.

 

[Warachia]

It bothers me that Yahtzee writes a lot of jokes at the expense of women or anyone who isn't the middle-class, able-bodied, straight, white, cis man. I don't actually know much about Yahtzee's character and I wouldn't assume he's the kind of person that cares if anyone is offended by what he says. I do however know he is an exoerienced writer and as such I would expect him to take some pride in the jokes he writes. Making a joke about a pre-op transexual or having sex with a pre-op transexual is easy because it appeals to the playground humour built on pubescent boys' sexual insecurities and you only have to bring up the image of a man with a penis in his mouth to make the lowest common denominator viewer piss themselves. Generally, good writers find ways of creating comedy that transcend human knee-jerk reactions and I personally apreciate when a writer has assumed that I, the person enjoying their output, is not a club-dragging neanderthal and they attempt comedy with a little more sophistication than "Look at this thing you have been taught to find funny and laugh, sheep".

I reiterate, this has nothing to do with offense, even if that is a can of worms I would be willing to open. This is about being a good writer and creating witty, original humour. I'm not here to speak up for anyone but myself. Jokes about femininity, homosexuality, transexuality, domestic violence, sexual abuse and the ilk are the easy option and unbecoming of anyone who has talent to write better jokes; and, need I say it, have been sufficiently played out over the last few millennia in my opinion.

Believe me, I understand the tight schedule Zero Punctuation has to follow and it is no small task to come up with 50 jokes and fit them in a 5 minute skit every week but as a long-time viewer I would let it be known I'd much prefer 25 curated jokes that didn't involve a penis threatening someone's sexuality or making fun of someone who has done nothing to elicit public ridicule.

First off, Yahtzee has mocked everyone, including "the middle-class, able-bodied, straight, white, cis(?) men" who are his usual generic targets (because they're the easiest to draw).

Secondly, I don't get why people are fine with all of the other offensive jokes, and then they're not fine with a not very offensive transsexual joke, the joke being that even though the person isn't a women (yet) they're not gay, he's using it as a contradiction, and not to mock transsexuals.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd figure a holocaust joke would make people more upset.

 

[Zombie Badger]

In as far as porn sites, I neglected to include "porn aggregation" websites as part of my statement as they typically also include some sort of homosexual section for each gender, somewhat diminishing their value as a point of comparison.

I can understand why you ignored aggregate sites to a certain extent, but my point was more limited to such sites that were clearly aimed at a single demographic (pretty much all lesbian porn found on such sites is made purely for the enjoyment of heterosexual men, porn aimed at lesbians being very different).

...That is unsubstantiated of course, although I'm curious to look into it now.

I think it's good that our conversation has made us interested in trying more about the subject at hand.

 

[JudgeGame]

It bothers me that Yahtzee writes a lot of jokes at the expense of women or anyone who isn't the middle-class, able-bodied, straight, white, cis man. I don't actually know much about Yahtzee's character and I wouldn't assume he's the kind of person that cares if anyone is offended by what he says. I do however know he is an exoerienced writer and as such I would expect him to take some pride in the jokes he writes. Making a joke about a pre-op transexual or having sex with a pre-op transexual is easy because it appeals to the playground humour built on pubescent boys' sexual insecurities and you only have to bring up the image of a man with a penis in his mouth to make the lowest common denominator viewer piss themselves. Generally, good writers find ways of creating comedy that transcend human knee-jerk reactions and I personally apreciate when a writer has assumed that I, the person enjoying their output, is not a club-dragging neanderthal and they attempt comedy with a little more sophistication than "Look at this thing you have been taught to find funny and laugh, sheep".

I reiterate, this has nothing to do with offense, even if that is a can of worms I would be willing to open. This is about being a good writer and creating witty, original humour. I'm not here to speak up for anyone but myself. Jokes about femininity, homosexuality, transexuality, domestic violence, sexual abuse and the ilk are the easy option and unbecoming of anyone who has talent to write better jokes; and, need I say it, have been sufficiently played out over the last few millennia in my opinion.

Believe me, I understand the tight schedule Zero Punctuation has to follow and it is no small task to come up with 50 jokes and fit them in a 5 minute skit every week but as a long-time viewer I would let it be known I'd much prefer 25 curated jokes that didn't involve a penis threatening someone's sexuality or making fun of someone who has done nothing to elicit public ridicule.

First off, Yahtzee has mocked everyone, including "the middle-class, able-bodied, straight, white, cis(?) men" who are his usual generic targets (because they're the easiest to draw).

Secondly, I don't get why people are fine with all of the other offensive jokes, and then they're not fine with a not very offensive transsexual joke, the joke being that even though the person isn't a women (yet) they're not gay, he's using it as a contradiction, and not to mock transsexuals.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd figure a holocaust joke would make people more upset.

Did you even read my post? I said this isn't about offense.

 

[Reeve]

Isn't it a bit homophobic to even care whether sex with a transexual makes you gay or not? What's so bad about being gay, eh?

 

[Warachia]

"You're right that nothing should be immune to jokes. The question is about the choice of joke to make. The problem with Yahtzee's politician joke was that it implies unpleasant things about Yahtzee and his own views on the subject matter, partly by the fact that he didn't intend it to be offensive."

"The joke itself is intended to be a new spin on the old 'closeted right-wing politician' joke, and is clearly not intended to be offensive towards transgender people. The problem is that it implies that someone who is transgender cannot be considered to be in any way their desired gender without surgery, which implies that their physical body is the only thing that defines their gender, and that their own perception of themself is meaningless."

"The thing is, Yahtzee is saying that anyone who would have sex with a pre-op transgender person would be gay, which implies that any pre-op or non-op people cannot be considered in any way to be their desired gender. Now, the thing with the definition of gay and straight is that they are not based on genitalia, instead being based on gender. As strange as it may sound, being attracted to penis does not make you gay. Being attracted to people of the same gender (regardless of their genitals) does. This can be seen in that MtF transsexual porn is exclusively consumed by straight men (Details on FtM porn is hard to find and its existence is often debated). Gay men (such as myself) are not attracted to women, regardless of their genitalia, and MtF transgender individuals are not considered attractive to gay men due to them being distinctly female."

I've taken these three separate posts and put them together because I have a big issue with them, and I'm sorry to be harsh, but yes, if you are attracted to the same physical gender that you are, then you are gay (this IS based entirely on genitalia), it has nothing to do with how you perceive yourself to be, if you are a man, who thinks of themselves as a women, that's fine, good for you, but that doesn't change the fact that physically you are still a man, and you will still be treated as such, and you should not expect people to treat you differently because of your sexuality, and this also applies the other way around, in other words, you will not be considered your desired gender unless you have surgery. Their perception of themselves is meaningless because, for the most part, the world labels your physical body as it is, and not how you want it to be.

Let's look at that joke in question, it's about a man who only does sexual acts with another man who perceives themselves to be a woman, is the first man gay? Yes he is, because he does not care about the person, merely the gender and mindset they currently have, is he mocking the transsexual for thinking they are a woman or wanting to become a woman? No he isn't, they are a secondary actor in the joke and not the main focus of it.

If the joke was reversed, and was about a man who only performed sexual acts on women who perceived themselves as men, would the man be gay? No he wouldn't, because again his attraction is based on gender and their mindset.