Zero Punctuation: The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds

[gadjo]

Thanks for bringing up the importance of local multiplayer to the survival of consoles. It really isn't common enough today, and lots of games that allow more than 2 players refuse to allow a party of 4 to play on the same system for no other reason than some bean counter figured out they sold less systems that way. And yet, they might stop managing to sell consoles much at all if they don't get back to it. That's something that I've been noticing about ALL business these days: short-term gains for long term losses. Make some more local multiplayer games jackasses, we can only play smash bros and halo non stop for so long.

 

[Strazdas]

This is so wrong......
If i were to give you a source (very bad one at that) that says there is unicorns living under my bed, you could not dismiss it unless you privide a source that proves otherwise? SO unless you invade my bedroom you have to accept that there are unicorns there? This is a very stupid model.

You're about two days too late to inject yourself into this conversation.

Also, it's obvious you didn't read the conversation that it spawned, otherwise you'd realize that you just committed the same mistake as your predecessor and relied on reductio ad absurdum to make your case, demonstrating further why you shouldn't have even bothered jumping in.

Please refrain from inserting yourself into a conversation that has already concluded, especially if you're going to utilize known logical fallacies in doing so. As much as "using a bad source makes me look bad", using a logical fallacy looks far worse.

sorry for not dedicating my life to responding to escapist forums as fast as possible. I read the conversation after my post when i could and thus wrote the post when i could. As far as i know the rule is 30 days, not 2.

Yes, indeed i used redcutio ad absurdum to prove your point false. Please note that reductio ad absurdum is NOT a logical fallacy. If your argument does not hold in extreme situation then it does not hold period.

Also the conversation is not over as evident by posts in the conversation posted after your response i am currently quoting.

Yes, vgchartz is such a laughable "source" that anyone quoting it as factual deserved to be dismissively ignored and their argument not even considered. And I'll be doing that here.

can you provide evidence of this because i ahve been using VGChartz and if they actually are false i should stop doing that. but only if you can prove they are actually false.

like i said we have different definitions, but if thats yours, then destructible environments go a looong way back, they didnt start last gen

i consider an innovation in GAMING something new that starts a trend

i did reconcile the point that it didnt start in previous generation. as far as definitions go, you can use different definitions than that of what it actually means, but that does not make you right. we have dictionaries for a reason.

Saying "you're wrong!" and then providing no actual reason why doesn't make you correct. It's not even an argument actually. This seems common amongst the things you post.

that seems this persons main tactic in arguing. Whenever he disagrees with me he always just spouts "Your wrong" or "nonesense" and provide no argument against mine.

 

[Strazdas]

Actually, it is a logical fallacy, and that's exactly how it works: it reduces a situation to an extreme and ludicrous example in an attempt to prove it false.

Please read the link you were given before speaking to me again.

If only you had bothered to read the link yourself you would have realized that it is not.

No, the discussion is most certainly already over. I've already decided to ignore further posts by the quoted individual as it's obviously not worth the effort of continuing to reply to him when he can't prove anything he says, whilst arguing a case that I never once made in the first place.

I ignore other people therefore im right.

You mean besides all of those quotes and links I make which completely prove everything you said wrong, right?

Is your memory so short or do you really think that saying "nonsense" is a fair argument?
And if you still think links provided by you about WiiU power in this topic prove anything i guess getting out of discussion is the best thing you can do.

 

[Thanatos2k]

can you provide evidence of this because i ahve been using VGChartz and if they actually are false i should stop doing that. but only if you can prove they are actually false.

As I said, go to Google. Type "vgchartz inaccurate" into the box. Click the search button, and you will find page after page after page of evidence on how vgchartz uses little more than guesswork to produce their numbers.

If only you had bothered to read the link yourself you would have realized that it is not.

That's the best part of how he "debates." He demands evidence but when you give it to him he clearly is not reading it.

No, he can't. I already asked him to, twice, and he just keeps refusing to back this claim up with anything.

I posted simple instructions, Kitty. Are you unable to follow them?

 

[Dragonbums]

Honestly if you aren't going to bother reviewing the game then don't. Seriously just...don't do it. Don't make me waste 2 minutes of my time thinking I'm going to see one thing, and only seeing a 5 minute rant/discussion about whatever grievances with X studio/company/publisher.

Slap that on a Extra Punctuation and review a game you genuinely care for. That is all.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

like i said we have different definitions, but if thats yours, then destructible environments go a looong way back, they didnt start last gen

i consider an innovation in GAMING something new that starts a trend

i did reconcile the point that it didnt start in previous generation. as far as definitions go, you can use different definitions than that of what it actually means, but that does not make you right. we have dictionaries for a reason.

fine whatever you want, geez, you could try being more agreeable


i just said what i considered innovation in gaming because going by the dictionary definition nearly every game is innovative because its new at one point, which is clearly problematic

 

[Strazdas]

As I said, go to Google. Type "vgchartz inaccurate" into the box. Click the search button, and you will find page after page after page of evidence on how vgchartz uses little more than guesswork to produce their numbers.

Ok, so i entertained your lack of any evidence and typed the google phrase. I got a lot of forum arguments (just like this, without any evidence), a few opinion articles and a bunch of dead links.
Oh, and i also found comprehensive arguments to the contrary.
http://www.vgchartz.com/article/82746/editorial-why-it-is-so-easy-to-blame-vgchartz/
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2007/06/behind-the-flamewar-creator-of-vgchartz-speaks/

So i conclude that you have no evidence to support your claim for their inaccuracy and as such dismiss your claim.

Edit: also notice how every result that isnt some forum conversation is 4 years+ old. You know, a site like this can change A LOT in 4 years.

fine whatever you want, geez, you could try being more agreeable


i just said what i considered innovation in gaming because going by the dictionary definition nearly every game is innovative because its new at one point, which is clearly problematic

Im sorry for not being agreeable about using whatever definition we personally consider valid.
We do seem to agree on pretty much everyo ther point we discussed though, so i think im agreeable enough here.

 

[Stealth]

This video is pretty terrible. They let this stuff go up on this site?

 

[C14N]

No, Nintendo just region locks their consoles, which is just as bad. Even Microsoft doesn't do that.

That's true, I hadn't thought about that. Region locking is a pain in the ass, although it's a niche problem that most people don't care about.

That's exactly how disc based games work on the other consoles. they aren't tied to any accounts.

But how do downloaded Nintendo games work? Surely, they are tied to accounts, and can't be freely exchanged? I'm not really seeing any difference here. You're talking about a Microsoft plan that was never implemented (and that Sony never planned), not the reality of using these consoles.

Whatever generation you consider the Wii U to belong to, the 360 and PS3 are still on the market, so can't just be ignored. It's not like everybody who decides not to buy a Wii U is going to buy a PS4 or Xbone (and that's not even counting PCs or mobile).

That's how they work now. The person I was quoting was referring to the previous MS attempts at DRM which were confusing and the details of which changed on a day to day basis.

Huh? The PS3 and Xbox 360 have a huge library of fun games. Those are the consoles that the Wii U launched against. There was no PS4 or Xbone when it launched - and the Wii U's specs are more in one with those consoles. It really isn't playing in the PS4/Xbone territory.

I was obviously referring to the PS4 and Xbox One. When you say "the other consoles" it's a given that you mean the other ones from the same generation, not the old ones. The Wii U didn't launch against the PS3 or 360 any more than the 360 launched against the PS2. It had a one year head start in a 6-7 year cycle. The fact that the specs aren't as good has nothing to do with it, the Wii's were at least as far from the competition as the Wii U's. It's the console that Nintendo will be supporting in this generation, just like Sony and MS will be supporting the PS3 and 360.

I can agree with that. Nintendo is overwhelmingly a first-party console. The company has alienated most third-party developers, and these days it's basically impossible for one company to provide enough games to meet demand. Back in the day when gaming wasn't as big, Nintendo could produce enough compelling content to satisfy users. Today they can't do it without third-party help.

Nintendo has a long history of giving the finger to 3rd parties. They stuck with cartridges longer than the competition, which were expensive to make and they made the developers pay for it. They probably could survive by themselves if they really tried to though, their in-house games have been tremendously financially successful in the last generation, despite the console exclusivity. If the Wii U had a library of maybe 5-10 really strong Nintendo games, I'd probably get one. Still, it would be good if they would do more to get others on their side. The fact that the Wii U uses a more traditional controller though as well as outputting the same resolution as the competition might make it more viable for developers to release games on all 3 systems this time around. Unlike last time when a game was made for PS3/360 and then a seperate similar, much cheaper one with poor graphics and bad controls was made for the Wii. I just hope that the Watch Dogs delay doesn't set too much of a precedent.

 

[Thanatos2k]

As I said, go to Google. Type "vgchartz inaccurate" into the box. Click the search button, and you will find page after page after page of evidence on how vgchartz uses little more than guesswork to produce their numbers.

Ok, so i entertained your lack of any evidence and typed the google phrase. I got a lot of forum arguments (just like this, without any evidence), a few opinion articles and a bunch of dead links.
Oh, and i also found comprehensive arguments to the contrary.
http://www.vgchartz.com/article/82746/editorial-why-it-is-so-easy-to-blame-vgchartz/
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2007/06/behind-the-flamewar-creator-of-vgchartz-speaks/

So i conclude that you have no evidence to support your claim for their inaccuracy and as such dismiss your claim.

Edit: also notice how every result that isnt some forum conversation is 4 years+ old. You know, a site like this can change A LOT in 4 years.

They haven't changed in the last 4 years. Fine, you want proof? Use vgchartz's own site.

http://www.vgchartz.com/methodology.php

You'll see their methodology is based on little more than guesswork.

There are two points they claim that they're doing that really aren't happening:

- Consulting with publishers and manufacturers to find out how many units they are introducing into the channel
- Polling retail partners to find out what games and hardware they are selling

Neither of these sources actually give them information. Publishers sure as hell aren't ever going to tell them, and retail stores are notoriously stingy about releasing such data. The NPD basically has to bribe them to do so. And hell, the NPD doesn't even get exact information for physical copies.

Then there's the fact that they have no method whatsoever for counting digital sales.

All this combines into the reality that vgchartz is nothing more than hopes and dreams. Estimates and guesses that are vaguely rooted in reality.

One thing vgchartz does do is when someone ELSE releases actual numbers, they secretly go back and updates theirs. Doesn't make them any more accurate.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

I was obviously referring to the PS4 and Xbox One. When you say "the other consoles" it's a given that you mean the other ones from the same generation, not the old ones.

Why is that a given?

A console competes against what else is on the market. "Generations" are irrelevant. The release of the PS4 and Xbone didn't make the PS3 and 360 suddenly stop existing. Those are still viable as "other consoles," and are still sold in the stores right alongside the Wii U.

I really don't see very many people considering a purchase of a Wii U against the PS4 or Xbone - the market for the Wii U is much more likely to be considering it against the PS3 and 360. The reality is that "generations" is just a construct of the industry that few consumers care about. People will buy what they like regardless of such arbitrary categories.

The Wii U didn't launch against the PS3 or 360 any more than the 360 launched against the PS2.

But the 360 did release against the PS2. And the Wii did launch against the 360 and PS3. Those were the competition at launch, and still make up the major competition. Do you really think that when the Wii U launched, people were comparing it to the unreleased Sony and Microsoft consoles, rather than what was actually on the shelves?

It's the console that Nintendo will be supporting in this generation, just like Sony and MS will be supporting the PS3 and 360.

If the case, then the Wii U seems pretty fucking doomed.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

fine whatever you want, geez, you could try being more agreeable


i just said what i considered innovation in gaming because going by the dictionary definition nearly every game is innovative because its new at one point, which is clearly problematic

Im sorry for not being agreeable about using whatever definition we personally consider valid.
We do seem to agree on pretty much everyo ther point we discussed though, so i think im agreeable enough here.

im not asking you to agree with my definition, but you shouldnt say im wrong just because i dont use one definition that in my opinion is very problematic when applied to gaming

 

[Lapin Logic]

The thing against the Wii U is nintendo gained the untapped market of 60 year olds wanting to do zumba and wii fit with the original wii.

This self same new audience is precicely the type to NOT buy a new $$$ £££ console in order to buy New wii U super fit standing on a plastic box zumba edition 2, they are happy not playing the original that is gathering dust under the cable box.

 

[Strazdas]

They haven't changed in the last 4 years. Fine, you want proof? Use vgchartz's own site.

http://www.vgchartz.com/methodology.php

You'll see their methodology is based on little more than guesswork.

There are two points they claim that they're doing that really aren't happening:

- Consulting with publishers and manufacturers to find out how many units they are introducing into the channel
- Polling retail partners to find out what games and hardware they are selling

Neither of these sources actually give them information. Publishers sure as hell aren't ever going to tell them, and retail stores are notoriously stingy about releasing such data. The NPD basically has to bribe them to do so. And hell, the NPD doesn't even get exact information for physical copies.

Then there's the fact that they have no method whatsoever for counting digital sales.

All this combines into the reality that vgchartz is nothing more than hopes and dreams. Estimates and guesses that are vaguely rooted in reality.

One thing vgchartz does do is when someone ELSE releases actual numbers, they secretly go back and updates theirs. Doesn't make them any more accurate.

You have given me a link to their methodology, which is legit and was expanded on in the links i already posted, then went on to claim that it is false throwing claims of them lieing without actually providing any evidence
NPD use the same extrapolation method that VGChartz use. If VGC is incorrect, then so is NPD.

Nobody has a method for counting digital sales, because most digital sales shops (like steam) actually managed to abuse their right to not disclose those numbers to anyone, the game developers included.

They adjust their numbers to reflect the real life information, you know, something that every statistical institution in world worth anything does. how terrible that they want to be as accurate as they can!

So, in conclusion: you provided no evidence of them being inaccurate, called them liers (again with no proof) and provided no alternative method to see sales data. You also do not seem to understand how statistical extrapolation work and why it is acceptable.

Therefore, i will continue to use the most precise measurement we have until either you provide evidence to the contrary or more precise measurement starts being done.

im not asking you to agree with my definition, but you shouldnt say im wrong just because i dont use one definition that in my opinion is very problematic when applied to gaming

If you are using incorrect definition then your results will be incorrect. You can disagree with the definition and make your case as to why, however so far i dont see your case here (you did mention some in previuos post that i didnt bother to respond to because i didnt consider it important, but if you like we can discuss the merits of alternative definition you propose).
That being said, the official definition is still official definition. Just like Piracy definition does not make any sense when applied to digital games, does not mean its definition is different for games though. Just that people incorrectly associate copyright infringement with piracy because some big names decided to use a scary word.

See, the problem with using definitions you find better is that anyone can do that and in the end we end up with 200 different definitions and just get confused. This is why we have a single agreed upon definition. Yes, it can be changed, but for that we need majority to start using it differently, and that is simply not the case with innovation.
An example of game everyone called innovative is Mirror's Edge. Yet it did not send any trends in gaming even if it was a financial success at the end.

 

[Thanatos2k]

They haven't changed in the last 4 years. Fine, you want proof? Use vgchartz's own site.

http://www.vgchartz.com/methodology.php

You'll see their methodology is based on little more than guesswork.

There are two points they claim that they're doing that really aren't happening:

- Consulting with publishers and manufacturers to find out how many units they are introducing into the channel
- Polling retail partners to find out what games and hardware they are selling

Neither of these sources actually give them information. Publishers sure as hell aren't ever going to tell them, and retail stores are notoriously stingy about releasing such data. The NPD basically has to bribe them to do so. And hell, the NPD doesn't even get exact information for physical copies.

Then there's the fact that they have no method whatsoever for counting digital sales.

All this combines into the reality that vgchartz is nothing more than hopes and dreams. Estimates and guesses that are vaguely rooted in reality.

One thing vgchartz does do is when someone ELSE releases actual numbers, they secretly go back and updates theirs. Doesn't make them any more accurate.

You have given me a link to their methodology, which is legit and was expanded on in the links i already posted, then went on to claim that it is false throwing claims of them lieing without actually providing any evidence
NPD use the same extrapolation method that VGChartz use. If VGC is incorrect, then so is NPD.

You're starting to get it. The NPD hasn't been accurate for years either.

Next thing you'll figure out is that TV ratings aren't actually based on the number of people who actually watched something, and TV networks have been scamming advertisers by lying to them about audience size for decades.

So, in conclusion: you provided no evidence of them being inaccurate, called them liers (again with no proof) and provided no alternative method to see sales data. You also do not seem to understand how statistical extrapolation work and why it is acceptable.

If you read the above link to their methodology and cannot understand how they aren't producing in any way shape or form an accurate number of actual games sold to actual people then you're beyond help. You will accept no evidence because you somehow process words into thoughts that are completely different than the meaning of the words.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

im not asking you to agree with my definition, but you shouldnt say im wrong just because i dont use one definition that in my opinion is very problematic when applied to gaming

If you are using incorrect definition then your results will be incorrect. You can disagree with the definition and make your case as to why, however so far i dont see your case here (you did mention some in previuos post that i didnt bother to respond to because i didnt consider it important, but if you like we can discuss the merits of alternative definition you propose).
That being said, the official definition is still official definition. Just like Piracy definition does not make any sense when applied to digital games, does not mean its definition is different for games though. Just that people incorrectly associate copyright infringement with piracy because some big names decided to use a scary word.

See, the problem with using definitions you find better is that anyone can do that and in the end we end up with 200 different definitions and just get confused. This is why we have a single agreed upon definition. Yes, it can be changed, but for that we need majority to start using it differently, and that is simply not the case with innovation.
An example of game everyone called innovative is Mirror's Edge. Yet it did not send any trends in gaming even if it was a financial success at the end.

do whatever you want, every game in the world in innovative because at some point is new, you are right about everything, im done with this


captcha: once again, how appropiate

 

[Strazdas]

You're starting to get it. The NPD hasn't been accurate for years either.

Next thing you'll figure out is that TV ratings aren't actually based on the number of people who actually watched something, and TV networks have been scamming advertisers by lying to them about audience size for decades.

If you read the above link to their methodology and cannot understand how they aren't producing in any way shape or form an accurate number of actual games sold to actual people then you're beyond help. You will accept no evidence because you somehow process words into thoughts that are completely different than the meaning of the words.

You confuse statistic method accuracity with factual knowledge.
By your logic, there is absolutely no statistic we have that is accurate. This is completely unworkable in real life however.
What we actually call accurate is the closest representative to accurate we can get. Statistical extrapolation is used almost everywhere and it is not some form of sign of inaccuracy.
You have read the methodology but fail to understand its meaning as you obviously do no know how statistics are made, which is why you make the mistake.
VGC is the most accurate measure of sales we got available, and to dismiss it outright is simply stupid. Knowing that the sales is around number X is better than not knowing anything at all.

do whatever you want, every game in the world in innovative because at some point is new, you are right about everything, im done with this

In a sense, yes, most new games are innovative. with exception being those that do the same thing that has been done before. There are different levels of innovation however, having a new story is small innovation while having a new gameplay mechanic is large innovation.

 

[Thanatos2k]

You're starting to get it. The NPD hasn't been accurate for years either.

Next thing you'll figure out is that TV ratings aren't actually based on the number of people who actually watched something, and TV networks have been scamming advertisers by lying to them about audience size for decades.

If you read the above link to their methodology and cannot understand how they aren't producing in any way shape or form an accurate number of actual games sold to actual people then you're beyond help. You will accept no evidence because you somehow process words into thoughts that are completely different than the meaning of the words.

You confuse statistic method accuracity with factual knowledge.
By your logic, there is absolutely no statistic we have that is accurate. This is completely unworkable in real life however.
What we actually call accurate is the closest representative to accurate we can get. Statistical extrapolation is used almost everywhere and it is not some form of sign of inaccuracy.

Statistical extrapolation is madness for video games though in most cases. For example, people can like one game in a series then utterly despise the next (see: Final Fantasy). Assassin's Creed 4 sold millions less than Assassin's Creed 3, but the extrapolations would have told you otherwise. Same thing with games of the same genre. How much would Kingdoms of Amalur sell? It's sort of like Skyrim and Fable AND multiplatform, so surely it would sell those numbers, right? (Actually, vgchartz grossly underestimated KoA sales back when it came out)

Thing is, the margin of error is just too large and the examples where vgchartz is off the mark by massive amounts too numerous for it to be useful here. THAT is why vgchartz is inaccurate and not to be used by anyone in any credible argument. An Atlus employee famously once came out and said vgchartz hadn't been close to the actual sales of ANY of their games.

VGC is the most accurate measure of sales we got available, and to dismiss it outright is simply stupid. Knowing that the sales is around number X is better than not knowing anything at all.

No, that is false. Knowing something that is inaccurate can lead dumb people to draw bad conclusions. Saying "I don't know" is better than saying something with flawed data. Until a company releases numbers saying how much they sold, NO ONE knows how many copies any game sold anymore.

 

[Strazdas]

Statistical extrapolation is madness for video games though in most cases. For example, people can like one game in a series then utterly despise the next (see: Final Fantasy). Assassin's Creed 4 sold millions less than Assassin's Creed 3, but the extrapolations would have told you otherwise. Same thing with games of the same genre. How much would Kingdoms of Amalur sell? It's sort of like Skyrim and Fable AND multiplatform, so surely it would sell those numbers, right? (Actually, vgchartz grossly underestimated KoA sales back when it came out)

Thing is, the margin of error is just too large and the examples where vgchartz is off the mark by massive amounts too numerous for it to be useful here. THAT is why vgchartz is inaccurate and not to be used by anyone in any credible argument. An Atlus employee famously once came out and said vgchartz hadn't been close to the actual sales of ANY of their games.

VGC is the most accurate measure of sales we got available, and to dismiss it outright is simply stupid. Knowing that the sales is around number X is better than not knowing anything at all.

No, that is false. Knowing something that is inaccurate can lead dumb people to draw bad conclusions. Saying "I don't know" is better than saying something with flawed data. Until a company releases numbers saying how much they sold, NO ONE knows how many copies any game sold anymore.

Sigh, i typed a reply and then my browser decided to randomly go to some website because apperently i pressed soem shortcut. ill try again.
----
It is quite clear that you do not know how statistics work.
Statistical extrapolation for sales is not madness. It is used by every statistical institution in the world. This is because exact data from all existing retailers is simply impossible.
Here is how it works: You take data from sources you have and then expand on it to fit all retailers (in this case). For example the methodology page shows that regions they have account for 70% of global sales. Then they extrapolate data from those countries to global using this assumption. As you already pointed out, if their assumtions are incorrect they adjust them as more data becomes available. However its worth noting that you should not mix the data publishers give with sales data. Publishers give data of items sold in their accouting sense. As in, wholesale sales. This however does not mean retail sales. all those items you see sitting on shelves, in storage and on the way - thats a discrepancy between the two. and if the game sells poorly but publisher printed many copies - thats going to be a large gap.
Statistical extrapolation has nothing to do with predicting sequel sales. Your example shows that you do not know what statistical extrapolation is as it has nothing to do with it.

An Atlus employee WOULDNT KNOW the actual sales of its games unless he did a specific investigation. that is because wholesale sales =/= retail sales. Thanks to NDA and secrecy in the industry most developers actually look at sites like VGC for data rather than get thier own. Weve seen developers that complain about Steam refusing to tell them how well their game sold even.

Also you keep talking about inaccuracies yet there are still no numerical examples or evidence from your side. For all i know you could be making it all up because you dislike the site.

And yes, knowing some data is better than knowing none. Otherwise you would still be living in a cave hunting animals with a rock.