Zero Punctuation: Thief - Stealing a Classic

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shiajun

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So that's what, 1.5 out of four for Eidos recent entries into beloved franchises to work? DE:HR seems to have hit the sweet spot, Tomb Raider worked pretty well...except for you know, there not being any decent tombs or free exploring in the game. Then there's Hitman:Absolution, which kind of languished in its corner and now Thief, being all over the place, not knowing what to do with its premise.

Please Eidos, stop it. Give it up. Make up new IPs, this strategy isn't really giving you high praise.
 

themilo504

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mavrik said:
themilo504 said:
Yahtzee's dislike of the game was not simply because it?s not thief 2, its fine if you don?t agree with him(I do it all the time) but don?t simplify his opinion to defend a game you like.
But that pretty much IS most of his review - he even admits it himself that he cannot give the game a fair treatment instead of comparing everything to Thief 2. Some of his criticisms are spot on but most of them are just "this is different than Thief 2".
His criticisms are not that its different from thief 2, his criticisms are that its different from thief 2 in a bad way.

Also comparing a reboot to the original is perfectly fine, if they wanted to avoid that they should not have called it thief.
 

Saika Renegade

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I'm not surprised it hasn't got the spirit of the originals. Modern visual design demands tend to clash with older game design concepts, and usually ends up making a mess rather than a success. I suspect this is part of why X-COM seems to be widely praised while Syndicate 2012, The Bureau: XCOM Declassified, and now Thief 2014 are garnering scorn rather than support.

Couldn't they just have appended a new IP to this? Are those getting that expensive now? Similar to Syndicate, why try to reach for nostalgia money on what is admittedly a small target group when you're not going to actually engage that target group with the core mechanics? Certainly you could reach new players who haven't been colored by the past by making changes for approachability and perhaps clarity (thank goodness for the streamlining of XCOM's soldier inventory system, for instance), but when you make claims to be reaching out to older fans, then don't actually reach out to them at all and end up causing them to talk down about your new production, it just raises the question: What are they actually trying to do, then?

Incidentally, I think this is the first time I've seen an actual subtitle on a Zero Punctuation video, not including basic descriptors like "Retrospective" or "First Impressions"...
 

Czann

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I just hope this is not a franchise killer.

So many people waited for this game for so long and they had to ruin it, hadn't they?
 

Objectable

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Diego Floor said:
This is like beating a dead horse. And it feels good.
There are some people in the AAA game industry who insist on beating a dead horse. But then there are those with creativity and vision, who come along and say, "I bet there's some good fucking left in that horse." Those men of vision, who molested dead horses, went on to create the new Theif ? because nobody had the courage to stop them. I think we can all share a little bit in that blame; we could've done more to avert this if we really tried, but in a climate of fear, we did not act and it happened.
 

Nurb

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Dec 9, 2008
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I was bugged by the fact most of the game was stealing from poor people in a trashy part of town. We have maybe 3 instances of robbing a small manor.

The stats though, that was done so poorly it was infurating. I tried to play as a ghost, but disabling traps counts towards "Opportunist", and non-leathal takedowns count as "Predator" instead of just stealthed kills, so even though I went a couple chapters without knocking out or being detected AT ALL, disabling enough traps gave me more "Opportunist" points so going undetected ment absolutely nothing and I didn't get my ghost ranking.

Not only that, but whatever you do before a chapter mission gets counted in the post-chapter mission stats, so knocking out a guard for a side-mission counts towards kills/takedowns in the chapter. Once I figured that bullshit out I was like "FUCK IT! EVERYONE'S GETTING BLACKJACK'D!" BONK! BONK! And the game was a lot less satisfying.

A couple things I can't figure out though...
Was Erin killing though plage or mutating though madness everyone in the city?

What the hell was the thief taker general's motivation for switching sides? Isn't he leader of the town watch? He just shows up at the end with Orion for a forced "boss fight" and we get no resolution there.

Where they hell was Garret for a year? Was he in Moira too? If so how did he get his stuff back? Why was he released?
 

Nurb

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Dec 9, 2008
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shiajun said:
So that's what, 1.5 out of four for Eidos recent entries into beloved franchises to work? DE:HR seems to have hit the sweet spot, Tomb Raider worked pretty well...except for you know, there not being any decent tombs or free exploring in the game. Then there's Hitman:Absolution, which kind of languished in its corner and now Thief, being all over the place, not knowing what to do with its premise.

Please Eidos, stop it. Give it up. Make up new IPs, this strategy isn't really giving you high praise.
The latest Deus Ex game was good up until the last levels where everyone became a "zombie" and the ending was "push a button for exposition"
 

Zak757

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I was really excited for this game despite never having played the previous ones, as the idea of it interested me. But after reading a bunch of negative reviews, I began to lose interest. This was the nail in the coffin.

Welp, time for a fourth run on Dishonored!
 

Sticky

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May 14, 2013
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I expected this. This game could very well get my worst game of the year award. Not even because it's not Thief 2 or whatever kind of bollocks people are whining about, but because as a game it is inherently flawed and broken. Guard AI is garbage, sound design is disturbingly bad, and the graphics are a constant gritty gray. It seems like a game people would make to make fun of modern AAA game design for a video on youtube instead of an actual attempt at rebooting a franchise.

I remember losing all hope for the game initially when I watched what I think is the defining moment of the game in a stream (yes I've played the game since then). There's a slide puzzle in a crawlspace behind the wall of a brothel and it became clear at about this point that the game has no acoustic simulation so sound goes straight through all walls (something the Unreal engine has by DEFAULT so there's no fucking telling why this game doesn't have it). Meanwhile two NPCs were fucking in an adjacent room during the whole puzzle, resulting in the slide puzzle _itself_ sounding like it was yelling "OH GOD, OH GOD, PUSH IT PUSH IT HARDER, GIVE IT ALL YOU GOT GIVE IT ALL YOU GOT". After thirty minutes of laughing at the scene that was unfolding before us, we resigned to further have our childhood memories shat upon and continued the buggy linear mess until the ending.

And oh god the ending is terrible, if it weren't for aforementioned dirty masochistic slide puzzle it would easily top one of the greatest I-wasn't-expecting-anything-and-I'm-still-disappointed moments I can remember in modern video games.

This entire game has lead me to believe that some people have just set their standards so low that if it doesn't crash, or set their console on fire, or refuse to play, or demand that they buy DLC for the ending, then they'll be happy with just about anything. I see plenty of such people in this thread defending what amounts to another crappy linear corridor progress simulator with such vigor that one must wonder what exactly the game must have done for them to achieve such high praises. One must wonder how high their standards are to begin with when all it takes is another by-the-numbers stealth game with terrible mechanics and mediocre design to be considered 'good enough' in their book.

I do have one stabbing question though for those defending it:

I think the game is fine for what it is, the usual mass pleasing, dime a dozen triple A game.
How did you experience the game? Did you experience the numerous framerate drops, terrible texture design, awful sound design, and NPC AI that would make even the completely clueless pillocks of Thief 1 seem like genius rocket scientists even on the hardest difficulty?

Because I certainly hope this just isn't the level of quality we've resigned ourselves to. I understand fully if it is, if those are just minor nits to you that every game seems to have these days that we just ignore because that's the polite thing to do, but those otherwise seem like serious issues to me that get a free pass for no better reason than "It's not like other modern games are any better". A phrase I'm seeing disturbingly often when it comes to AAA games (Aliens: Colonial Marines for example had the EXACT SAME RESPONSE as many have in this thread, will you look back on Thi4f in a few months and ask yourself why you ever defended this title?)
 

Racecarlock

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canadamus_prime said:
Is it my imagination or is the AAA industry getting exponentially worse?
Well let me put it like this, if this is your imagination then this must be one hell of a shared dream, my friend.
 

mrdude2010

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It's a shame. I had high hopes for this game. I mean, even if they had copypasted thief II and given it a graphical upgrade it would have been fine with me (at least after it had its first steam sale).
 

mrdude2010

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shiajun said:
So that's what, 1.5 out of four for Eidos recent entries into beloved franchises to work? DE:HR seems to have hit the sweet spot, Tomb Raider worked pretty well...except for you know, there not being any decent tombs or free exploring in the game. Then there's Hitman:Absolution, which kind of languished in its corner and now Thief, being all over the place, not knowing what to do with its premise.

Please Eidos, stop it. Give it up. Make up new IPs, this strategy isn't really giving you high praise.
I'll give them 2.5. DE:HR gets 1 and Tomb Raider and Hitman: Absolution get a combined 1.5. I actually had a fun time with Hitman Absolution. It wasn't nearly as good as Blood Money, but it was still a perfectly competent mostly Hitman game.
 

mrdude2010

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Adept Mechanicus said:
I feel like we'll be hearing about this for weeks to come. This will be for Yahtzee what Man of Steel is for Bob Chipman.

Aiddon said:
Sounds about right; thing is there's probably going to be someone saying we can't judge it by the previous games' merits because it's a reboot, but we all know that's a load of crap. If they didn't want to invite comparisons then they shouldn't have used the Thief name but instead made a new title. It's why I had to laugh whenever someone says "a reboot SHOULD be different" in order to justify clear bastardization of source material or "fuck yous" to the fans (such as the attempted DMC reboot or Lords of Shadow).
To be fair, a reboot should indeed be different, because putting a new perspective on things is the ONLY reason to pour millions into telling the same story twice. Did you know Scarface was a remake of a 1930s gangster film about Prohibition? If you're like everyone else I've ever asked this question, the answer is probably no. The remake made the wise decision to update the setting to 1980s Miami, both making the story more relevant to present audiences and drawing a parallel between the Drug War and Prohibition that adds a lot of political subtext. That being said, there is a difference between expanding a story through reinterpretation and just making a boiled-down caricature or a continuation in name only, which is what I think you're talking about.
I see what you're saying, but the thing is, that reboot remained true to the elements of the story that made it good in the first place. The best parts of Thief were the engaging dialogue, clear stealth focus, wide open levels designed to be explored in a non-linear way, and Garret's character. If you ruin all those things, you're not making a Thief game. Dishonored, if you had completely rewritten the story and dialogue trees, would have made a better reboot than this. Dishonored took the ideas of Thief's gameplay and expanded on them. This just tosses those ideas out and starts all over again, with only token character names to connect it to the previous entries.
 

Neurotic Void Melody

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Jul 15, 2013
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Has anyone had the pleasure of unintentionally waiting at the beginning of the brothel level, only to hear a guard endlessly repeat the same line with about 2 seconds in between each repetition...to do with 'getting some freebie after his shift' sort of thing? It was funny in a depressingly brain-damaged to pure seediness, sort of way. Only for a short while though.
I thought it was over once i burnt him to a cinder and knocked out his friend. But ALAS...no! Only minutes later i heard the same line uttered from beyond walls as if his spirit was taunting me! Or there were secret legions of seedy clones all wanting their 'freebies' who lived amongst the cave walls.

I really wanted to like this game too. Wouldnt have wasted 40 gold on it otherwise. Ah taff it. Might try and complete xcomEU properly now
 

SnakeoilSage

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Barbas said:
Well, it sounds like everything that could have gone wrong ended up going wrooooooooong [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAeQiLmEYU].

At least we have Dishonored.
I think you meant to say "at least we have Thief 2 get it now on gog.com or Steam for a song." It even rhymes.
 

Canadamus Prime

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Jun 17, 2009
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Racecarlock said:
canadamus_prime said:
Is it my imagination or is the AAA industry getting exponentially worse?
Well let me put it like this, if this is your imagination then this must be one hell of a shared dream, my friend.
Don't you mean shared nightmare?
 

Racecarlock

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canadamus_prime said:
Racecarlock said:
canadamus_prime said:
Is it my imagination or is the AAA industry getting exponentially worse?
Well let me put it like this, if this is your imagination then this must be one hell of a shared dream, my friend.
Don't you mean shared nightmare?
Yes I do. In fact, I think we're in some badly written comic universe where all the bad guys are extremely incompetent as well as malicious but still somehow get power.

Oh fuck we're in the resident evil universe.
 

ThunderCavalier

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Racecarlock said:
Oh fuck we're in the resident evil universe.
Movie or video game universe? Both are stupid, but they're quite specific and well-defined levels of stupid.

From what I've seen of Thief, I don't think that it's necessarily as bad a game as some people think it is - it's certainly not Duke Nukem Forever levels of terrible - but the problem is that Thief has quite the legacy behind it, and unless you're going into Thief not having any prior experience with Thief (or hardcore stealth titles), it's gonna disappoint pretty hard. Given what's changed with this new Thief, this probably felt like a huge slap in the face to Yahtzee.

Seems like the review was rather cathartic for him, though. Lots of bite in this one.
 

Shjade

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Feb 2, 2010
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Shalok said:
I have a recommendation for anyone thinking of buying this game: Play Dishonored again, you will have much more fun.
Considering I didn't even like Dishonored that much (mainly because it gives you zero indication of whether or not you're actually hiding when you're trying to do stealthy things, which is more than a little important), that's pretty discouraging.
 

Mangod

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Feb 20, 2011
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aegix drakan said:
Wow. That whole removing of the witty charm, making the levels small, with horrible patrol routes and constant points of no return sound absolutely horri-

.....WHAT?!?!?!?!

THEY REPLACED "taffer" WITH "fuck"!?!??!!?

GGAAAAHHHH WHAT THE HELL REALLY?! THAT WAS SOMETHING SO INCREDIBLY ICONIC TO THE SERIES AND REQUIRED NO EFFORT TO CARRY OVER! WHY?! HOW DID THEY...*garble garble*

Man...I can't WAIT to see how badly Razorfist destroys this game. He's a massive fan of the series as well and has been consistently questioning the designers' decisions ever since details were first revealed. He is NOT going to be kind to it...
Believe me, he did not disappoint in that regard:


Given how much Razorfist clearly loved the original series, this is almost sad to watch.