Zero Suit Samus has a great character model

[NoeL]

That's all well and good, but the Zero Suit isn't recreational wear. Those heels might make sense if she were going to a formal or semi-formal social function and in appropriate clothes. But she's not. She's on the job, and the heels are different from anything she's ever worn on the job in the past.

Spoiler: Gail Devers

She's "on the job" but still wears makeup, earrings and ridiculous nails. Many other female (and male) athletes wear makeup and jewellery when competing too. Granted you can make the argument that those things don't impede them from competing, but that argument fails on many grounds:
1) Samus' shoes have benefits (the aforementioned flight/rocket kicks) that may override whatever impediment they carry.
2) Looking at how she actually moves in the video the shoes don't impede her movement.
3) It's a video game! Link and Mario's hats should be falling off everywhere unless they're pinned to their hair. The Fire Emblem guys would be constantly battling their cape to fight effectively. Peach and Zelda - have you ever seen a fighter in a dress!?

As for the argument that she's never worn anything like that in the past... so? How is that an argument at all?

Would you be making this utility argument if Fox, Mega Man, Olimar, or Sonic had shown up in exactly those shoes? Or if they were described as magical boots of flame, and were worn by Yoshi, Shiek, Marth, King DeDeDe, Link(either version), Mario, Luigi, or Pit?

Yes.

Believe what you want. I dismissed it as being unnecessary to quote because it was all just an expansion on the idea that no one can possibly know what kind of person Samus Aran is.

Fair enough, but the point I was making is that the games (outside of Fusion/Other M) don't give enough insight in Samus' character to argue whether she would or wouldn't wear those shoes. You disagreed (which is fine) but put forward the same, in my opinion mis-observations, that I had just criticised. By all means argue against what I said, but try to bring something new.

Then I am forced to question why the outlet store she bought them from does not have shoes that can do those things in a non-Lady Gaga style, and I must conclude there is no engineering reason that the shoes are forced to exist in that format, and they are therefore a bullshitty designer's choice for the sake of sexualization.

Well there's the rocket tube argument but I'm not going to go there, because fiction. In any case, what choices some hypothetical rocket shoe designer makes is hardly relevant isn't it? Maybe the shoes were designed for a Lady Gaga concert so she could zip around above the crowd and cause a spectacle, and people loved them so much they decided to produce and sell replicas to the general public. And Samus thought "Hmm, I could do without the heels and the fluro trim, buuuut... ROCKET KICKS!!! Shut up and take my money!"

She got by without those things fine in the previous game. Those features do not improve her abilities; they only change them.

Again, showing your ignorance. ZSS was shit in Brawl - far too weak to be any good. The new shoes boost her attack and agility without sacrificing anything (except fashion sense). They added the boots to balance her out a bit and make her a more competitive player. You could argue they could have just tweaked the numbers a bit, but why not add some flair and spectacle where you can?

In defiance of any known law of physics, yes.

... in a game where players jump off thin air. -__- Clutching at straws here buddy.

If he's wearing flippers on land to a fighting tournament, then yes, that swimmer is a bit of a moron.

Pretty much every Smash Bros bout I've been in has been 90% aerials. Have you ever played the game before?

Also, just to make your analogy more fitting, if he was wearing flippers on the land at the bottom of a swimming pool would he still be a moron? It's not like Samus isn't in air while she's on land.

I said in the post you are responding to, and I will repeat in case you missed it, that to all evidence I currently possess, Samus wears that suit inside her power suit as a protective barrier between her flesh and the armor.

She wears the zero suit inside her power suit. The rocket heels are not part of her zero suit. They're additions to her outfit. Just because her name is "Zero Suit Samus" doesn't mean that her entire ensemble is part of her zero suit. The gun-whip and hair tie aren't part of the zero suit either. Also, in case you missed it, ZSS is a separate character to PSS this time. There's no longer going to be any in-game transitions between the two, meaning Samus will never have to wear the power suit over the heels, or find somewhere to take them off and store them whilst in the power suit.

 

[theNater]

1) Samus' shoes have benefits (the aforementioned flight/rocket kicks) that may override whatever impediment they carry.

Rocket boots don't have to have heels on them. The actual heels do not provide benefits.

2) Looking at how she actually moves in the video the shoes don't impede her movement.
3) It's a video game! Link and Mario's hats should be falling off everywhere unless they're pinned to their hair. The Fire Emblem guys would be constantly battling their cape to fight effectively. Peach and Zelda - have you ever seen a fighter in a dress!?

Internal consistency is important, even if realism isn't. It is video game logic, but that's not the same as saying anything goes.

As for the argument that she's never worn anything like that in the past... so? How is that an argument at all?

Fair enough, but the point I was making is that the games (outside of Fusion/Other M) don't give enough insight in Samus' character to argue whether she would or wouldn't wear those shoes.

Characterization is more than just what people say. Among other things, it's what they choose to wear. Samus has been overall fairly consistent in her gear choices to date, and this is a significant deviation from that.

 

[JimB]

The point I was making is that the games (outside of Fusion/Other M) don't give enough insight in Samus's character to argue whether she would or wouldn't wear those shoes.

And my point is I disagree, for the reasons I have listed.

What choices some hypothetical rocket shoe designer makes is hardly relevant, isn't it?

There seems to be an implication that the only way Samus can improve herself and/or compete in this tournament is with rocket shoes. That seems like a really weird presumption to me, but fine, whatever, let's run with it and say rocket shoes are the only way. For Samus to choosethose particular rocket shoes is baffling.

She got by without those things fine in the previous game. Those features do not improve her abilities; they only change them.

Again, showing your ignorance.

I find it kind of hilarious that you accuse me of showing ignorance in the very same breath that you repeat a complaint someone else has already aimed at me and that I already responded to. I get that you're eager to insult me, NoeL, but please consider not letting that eagerness compromise your diligence.

The new shoes boost her attack and agility without sacrificing anything (except fashion sense).

And integrity.

In defiance of any known law of physics, yes.

...in a game where players jump off thin air. -__- Clutching at straws here buddy.

Samus Aran is a science fiction character. If you want to claim that nothing needs to make sense for fantasy characters, then fine, whatever, the whole point of fantasy is that you can just say "wizards did it" as an excuse for any stupid bullshit you want to. Science fiction is held to at least a pretense of rational sense.

Also, just to make your analogy more fitting, if he was wearing flippers on the land at the bottom of a swimming pool would he still be a moron?

Are...are you sitting here and arguing that water's buoyancy and viscosity are such completely negligible effects that standing in water is completely and one hundred percent analogous to standing in open air?

The rocket heels are not part of her zero suit.

Great, then she's running around in underwear for no reason. Fantastic.

Also, in case you missed it, Zero Suit Samus is a separate character from Power Suit Samus this time.

Jesus Christ, dude. I get that you're pissed off at me for disagreeing with you about shoes, but if all you want is to suggest that I'm too mentally defective to tell that two different characters are two different characters, please let me know so I can get out of this bad-faith conversation right now.

 

[SAMAS]

I disagree primarily on the basis that the Zero Suit is more covering and arguably thicker than literally everything else Samus has ever been shown wearing underneath the Power Suit.

Okay...

But I fail to see how that prevents it from being a tight, form-fitting outfit which quite effectively compliments Samus' body type.

Look, I won't argue with you that the design for Samus in the Zero Suit has become more sexualized over the years since its first inception, but the thing was never not a latex bodysuit.

What I mean is that I don't think Fanservice was the primary reason for the Zero Suit.

I mean, compare what Samus has worn in every other game underneath:

Yes, it is a skintight bodysuit and yes, she looks good in it. But considering what has come before it...

 

[shrekfan246]

What I mean is that I don't think Fanservice was the primary reason for the Zero Suit.

Then allow me to clarify that I wasn't saying fanservice was the primary reason behind it.

There's nothing wrong with having an outfit which is sexualized, and being sexualized doesn't mean that the sexualization is the only function or purpose of the outfit.

My point was simply that the Zero Suit was already sexualized, and as you helpfully pointed out Samus has long been sexualized outside of her Power Suit even before it, so I don't see why people are arguing about the heels adding to or changing that in any way. In my opinion, the heels simply look stupid and don't seem as if they would be terribly practical or functional, so I don't like them as a change. Boots would make more sense, and provide the same benefits.

 

[Wolfe M. Howler]

I'm going to repost this here from a different topic.

Honestly, I'm fine if a female character is upfront with their sexuality, even in combat situations.

However, Other M has proven that Samus is not that type of character, what with her idolizing an abusive father figure who was willing to go so far as SHOOT HER IN THE BACK so that she does not disobey her. The Elephant in the Room Article describes most of the points I want to make, but to keep it brief: Samus is not characterized as a character who "wants" to be sexual. To me, she's somewhat a tragic, abused character.

Instead of comparing her to Black Widow and Bayonetta, who have weaponized their sexuality, we should see her in her own light, and ask whether putting an abuse victim in ridiculously high heels should be a positive change.

The Elephant in The Room:
http://moonbase.rydia.net/mental/blog/gaming/metroid-other-m-the-elephant/article.html

 

[Sansha]

The suit doesn't look THAT bad, though the heels are retarded, they're somewhat utilitarian. Nobody ever complained about Chell's heels, did they?


And, I don't know of any female character that hasn't had a claim of 'sexualization' made against her character or design. Every time a female character looks good, people cry sexism. It's becoming overblown, and frankly fucking boring.

 

[SAMAS]

My point was simply that the Zero Suit was already sexualized, and as you helpfully pointed out Samus has long been sexualized outside of her Power Suit even before it, so I don't see why people are arguing about the heels adding to or changing that in any way. In my opinion, the heels simply look stupid and don't seem as if they would be terribly practical or functional, so I don't like them as a change. Boots would make more sense, and provide the same benefits.

Well, the heels to me come across as more of the blind application of A stupid trope [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CombatStilettos] than any deliberate attempt to sexify Samus any further.

 

[Requia]

A lot of us noticed when people pointed it out and posted the side-by-side comparisons confirming it. As for the people that did those initial comparisons, some of them might've been fixated on her sexuality because they're perverts, but some of them were probably fixated on how Nintendo portrays her breasts because they're not perverts, and they don't like the direction Nintendo's taking the character in.

I'd like to see these side by side comparisons, if anything they look smaller than SSB

http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/File:SSBB_congrats_Zamus.png

 

[NoeL]

Rocket boots don't have to have heels on them. The actual heels do not provide benefits.

Fair enough, but you can't just divorce the aesthetic from the practicality that easily. While incorporating practicality into a character's costume design is important it's almost universally secondary to aesthetic. JRPG characters are probably the worst example of this, with superfluous buckles and tassels everywhere. "Does this look good?" is a more important question than "Is this practical?", and while you can argue the heels don't look good that's a whole other discussion.

Internal consistency is important, even if realism isn't. It is video game logic, but that's not the same as saying anything goes.

So how do the rocket heels violate the consistency of the game?

Characterization is more than just what people say. Among other things, it's what they choose to wear. Samus has been overall fairly consistent in her gear choices to date, and this is a significant deviation from that.

I agree she's always been more for boots, but I don't see the heels as a significant deviation. Nintendo have been steadily sexing her up for a while now, and while I don't particularly like that design choice I don't see it as negating or deviating from what Samus was (which was practically a blank slate - you could create a dozen different personalities that would all make sense with what you see in game). And that's the problem, really - a lot of people, particularly in the west, became attached to the personalities they created for Samus, and when she was finally given more character and revealed to be another generic combat babe it was a big disappointment because we wanted her to be more. She's not losing anything, she just unfortunately never had those things we all attributed to her. A wasted opportunity.

That said, it's ok to kick ass and still be a bombshell - just take Bayonetta as an example.

And my point is I disagree, for the reasons I have listed.

Are you referring to the reasons that I argued against in my first post, and that you never addressed in an way other than repeating yourself? Ok then, moving on.

There seems to be an implication that the only way Samus can improve herself and/or compete in this tournament is with rocket shoes. That seems like a really weird presumption to me, but fine, whatever, let's run with it and say rocket shoes are the only way. For Samus to choosethose particular rocket shoes is baffling.

Sure.

I find it kind of hilarious that you accuse me of showing ignorance in the very same breath that you repeat a complaint someone else has already aimed at me and that I already responded to. I get that you're eager to insult me, NoeL, but please consider not letting that eagerness compromise your diligence.

I don't read the other posts in the thread so apologies if I missed that. Irony aside, that doesn't change the fact you made a statement that at least had the appearance of ignorance.

And integrity.

Why? Why can't a woman look sexy if she wants to? To use my above example, do you look at Bayonetta and think "God, I can't believe she sacrificed her integrity like that."? I know Samus has been drawn slightly more conservative in past years and there's a bit of Flanderisation going on there but she's always (outside of Nintendo Power) been a sex symbol. The Power Suit hides that so as not to let it detract from the core of the game but she's always been a sexy girl underneath. It's a little disappointing because she could have been more, but it's stupid to raise the sexism flag now (or rather, it's stupid to act like the the heels add something that wasn't already there).

Samus Aran is a science fiction character. If you want to claim that nothing needs to make sense for fantasy characters, then fine, whatever, the whole point of fantasy is that you can just say "wizards did it" as an excuse for any stupid bullshit you want to. Science fiction is held to at least a pretense of rational sense.

Calling Metroid "science fiction" is debatable (space setting =/= science fiction). Granted some of the later games try to have more of a grounding in reality but the morph ball, screw attack, finding one-of-a-kind-power-suit-compatible items scattered across an alien planet make no more sense than being able to run in heels - especially when they're ROCKET heels. She doesn't even need to run in them! I just find this argument ridiculous to the point of absurdity: of all the fantastic shit that gets hand-waved away as video game logic both in Smash Bros. AND Metroid people have a hard time believing Samus couldn't have exceptional balance, or that the shoes themselves are able to stabalise the wearer? This is when people need to take a step back and ask themselves if the practicality of the heels in this setting really matters.

Are...are you sitting here and arguing that water's buoyancy and viscosity are such completely negligible effects that standing in water is completely and one hundred percent analogous to standing in open air?

/facepalm. Nothing more needs to be said.

Great, then she's running around in underwear for no reason. Fantastic.

Yes - in a game with fitness trainers, medieval knights, fire-breathing turtles, pink blobs, electric mice... how could you possibly find this MORE absurd than anything else going on?

Jesus Christ, dude. I get that you're pissed off at me for disagreeing with you about shoes, but if all you want is to suggest that I'm too mentally defective to tell that two different characters are two different characters, please let me know so I can get out of this bad-faith conversation right now.

I'm not pissed off at you for disagreeing. I love when people disagree. If I'm pissed off at you it's with your ignorance and/or poorly argued points. You're trying to complain about a character wearing shoes that don't fit in their suit, despite the face that character never wears those shoes inside their suit. What even?

 

[JimB]

I don't read the other posts in the thread so apologies if I missed that.

/facepalm. Nothing more needs to be said.

Uh huh.

So you don't read the posts in this thread, which means you're only following a few people; which means all you want is private conversations, but you're holding them publicly for spectacle's sake. Further, the conversations you're having are not intended to actually increase anyone's understanding, because when people ask you direct questions you apparently think are stupid, you'd rather just point and laugh than explain yourself.

Right. I think I'm done with you. You're arguing in bad faith, and I want no part of it. You have said exactly one thing I want to address, though, just in case this argument would come up again:

Why? Why can't a woman look sexy if she wants to?

A woman absolutely can, and neither I nor anyone else has any right to tell her she can't. The problem is, Samus is not a woman. She's not a person. She's imaginary. She does not have desires and she does not make choices; her desires are projected onto her by her creators, and her choices are made for her by her creators. Her desire to be sexy and her choice to wear stiletto rocket heels are all things artificially imposed by the developers at Bandai Namco*, the good people who think this is how you dress for a sword fight. [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0e/Ivy_Valentine.png] Trying to make those shoes an issue of Samus's agency and right to be paradoxical is badly missing the point.

*as well as by a company that was dissolved two years ago but that Bandai Namco is still working with, which I don't understand how that works but whatever.

 

[Proto Taco]

Hey look, opinionated people on the internet, this'll be fun.

Joking aside, I don't have time to read all 200+ responses to this thread but I see a refreshing level of interest in making women's armor practically sexy rather than socially sexy, and it's kinda cool. So I figure I'll add my 2 cents to the wishing well of reasonable female character design and see what happens.

Now Samus as a character, I like. She's cool. Her armor isn't a metal bikini, she kicks all the butts, is smart, travels all over the galaxy and back. However, I have a few perennial problems with her design that I've always wished would be addressed;

1) Heels - it's what this thread is about and Samus has been put in them more than once if I am recalling correctly. Big problem here is, as others have stated, they are neither practical nor empowering for a scrappy galactic star setter like Samus. In fact, all the scrappy athletic women I've made friends with and/or encountered in my day to day, never wear heels as a matter of course. It's always sneakers, boots, or if they're feeling really feminine sporty flats, but NEVER high heels.

2) Hair - There's a reason soldiers shave their heads. Hair is hot, uncomfortable, easy to grab, obstructs your vision and as body bits go, it's fairly high maintenance. Samus having a long ponytail and those funky bang dangles makes no sense. Surviving on your own, in space, while shooting hostiles in the head, does not leave a lot of time for styling or maintaining hair. Plus she wears her armor probably %75 of her waking hours, if not more. Long hair packed in that helmet all day would be unbearable. Plus, assuming she does use her zero suit for combat on occasion, having those bangs and that ponytail fwip back in forth in her face would be seriously annoying, and dangerous considering her occupation. It makes far more sense that she'd keep her hair short and low maintenance so she could spend more time gathering information about her targets and tracking them down. Now that doesn't mean she needs to shave her head, but something closer to a bob or pixie cut would make a lot more sense for her.

3) Physique - She looks flimsy. Now I'm not talking about how skinny she is, because athletic women do tend to be rather slender, and on rare occasions they even have boobs that big too. Thing is, girl's got no definition. Athletic women, although not as 'chiseled' as the men, do have definition. You can see their major muscle groups in the arms, shoulders, and to a lesser extent the legs and stomach. Samus looks like a valley girl in cosplay, dressing up to look like a sexier version of the real Samus. I mean she doesn't need to be built like a thundercat, but at least a little something that says, "hey, this gal's sturdy," would be awesome.

Anyway, I keep hoping Samus's design will be taken as something more than just pocket mining cheese cake, but over the years Nintendo hasn't exactly inspired confidence in this notion, so blegh. Whatever Nintendo, I'll just go back to vainly praying at my Beyond Good and Evil closet shrine. Some day Ubisoft....some day....

 

[theNater]

While incorporating practicality into a character's costume design is important it's almost universally secondary to aesthetic. JRPG characters are probably the worst example of this, with superfluous buckles and tassels everywhere. "Does this look good?" is a more important question than "Is this practical?", and while you can argue the heels don't look good that's a whole other discussion.

So we're in agreement that the rocket boots could have looked however the designers wanted, and they look the way they do because the designers thought Samus should wear heels.

I agree she's always been more for boots, but I don't see the heels as a significant deviation. Nintendo have been steadily sexing her up for a while now, and while I don't particularly like that design choice I don't see it as negating or deviating from what Samus was (which was practically a blank slate - you could create a dozen different personalities that would all make sense with what you see in game). And that's the problem, really - a lot of people, particularly in the west, became attached to the personalities they created for Samus, and when she was finally given more character and revealed to be another generic combat babe it was a big disappointment because we wanted her to be more. She's not losing anything, she just unfortunately never had those things we all attributed to her. A wasted opportunity.

It is a wasted opportunity, and that's what's so frustrating about it. Samus has a huge, rabid fanbase that could be harnessed to so much benefit if they'd just kept her practical first. Instead, they've thrown that away in favor of steadily sexing her up.

That said, it's ok to kick ass and still be a bombshell - just take Bayonetta as an example.

It's absolutely okay. But there's no benefit in slowly but steadily turning Samus into Bayonetta. Diversity is important; I'd be almost as frustrated if somebody put Bayonetta in sensible combat boots.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

I doubt it, since symbols, by their very nature, cannot be universal. It is impossible to get a single consensus among all human beings about what a subjective image means. I believe it is generally understood that the only purpose of high heels is to make women more attractive to men, but universally? No.

The purpose of high heels is to make the leg appear longer which is often seen as an attractive trait in females. The footwear has no other practical application than to alter this appearance and indeed such shoes tend to favor this alteration of stature above other considerations such as comfort and safety. The shoe basically fits in the same category as the push up bra as both are designed to enhance appearance at the expense of other more practical considerations like comfort.

The choice of a heel thus isn't a question of if you personally believe heels enhance the attractiveness of a person or not but rather shows that the character is inclined to make an aesthetic choice over a practical one. It's basically the same problem I have when female characters choose to wear skimpy "armor" - a character who knowingly and willingly chooses impractical dress before facing mortal danger is a character trying to win a Darwin award. The problem, you see, is that there is a disconnect between what I'm asked to believe about a character and what they are showing me about the character.

To put it simply, I think that Samus in her current iteration of the Zero suit is attractive but I do not think she is dressed for combat so much as a night in an edgy club.

 

[ThePuzzldPirate]

The suit doesn't look THAT bad, though the heels are retarded, they're somewhat utilitarian. Nobody ever complained about Chell's heels, did they?


And, I don't know of any female character that hasn't had a claim of 'sexualization' made against her character or design. Every time a female character looks good, people cry sexism. It's becoming overblown, and frankly fucking boring.

This was the first thing that came to mind when this whole mess has started and I haven't stopped giggling since. This drama has less to do about ridiculous heels and more to do with a certain character wearing ridiculous heel. Metroid fans are apparently louder than Portal fans, or at least, pretend to care more than Portal fans. XD

 

[Dragonbums]

The suit doesn't look THAT bad, though the heels are retarded, they're somewhat utilitarian. Nobody ever complained about Chell's heels, did they?


And, I don't know of any female character that hasn't had a claim of 'sexualization' made against her character or design. Every time a female character looks good, people cry sexism. It's becoming overblown, and frankly fucking boring.

This was the first thing that came to mind when this whole mess has started and I haven't stopped giggling since. This drama has less to do about ridiculous heels and more to do with a certain character wearing ridiculous heel. Metroid fans are apparently louder than Portal fans, or at least, pretend to care more than Portal fans. XD

Except that you literally ignored all of the points addressing the thing with Chell.

People are angry that Samus is wearing heels not because they are heels, but because for a character that has been built up on functionality and practicality, wearing heels has NEVER been practical in any setting asides looking good. And even that has a heavy consequence for your health in the end.

In regards to Portal, you literally had someone talk about maybe 4 or so posts above stating that what Chell is wearing aren't even heels. They are an improvised version of the shock absorbing bouncers from the first game. In fact the "heels" extend all the way to the back of the calf, and if I'm not mistaken some of it is surgically implemented into her legs. You can see that they are a lot more believable in absorbing shock and is evenly distributed. Samus has literal heels. No matter what you try to justify it with, that shit is not practical. I don't care if you put rockets on it.

 

[NoeL]

snip

Looks like we're in agreement for the most part. Thanks for the chat.

Uh huh.

So you don't read the posts in this thread, which means you're only following a few people; which means all you want is private conversations, but you're holding them publicly for spectacle's sake. Further, the conversations you're having are not intended to actually increase anyone's understanding, because when people ask you direct questions you apparently think are stupid, you'd rather just point and laugh than explain yourself.

I'm holding it publicly for the other readers that may or may not get some insight into our conversation, not "spectacle".

As for pointing and laughing, when someone misses the point so hard that there's no other explanation than that they deliberately missed the point, they are arguing in bad faith. If you looked at my analogy and thought "Is he trying to say that water and air have the same viscosity?" then you're either really really dumb (which I don't think is the case) or you're not even trying to understand and consider my points, which means you're just arguing for the sake of it. Are you honestly going to sit here and tell me you thought I was equating viscosities? Really?

A woman absolutely can [choose to look sexy], and neither I nor anyone else has any right to tell her she can't. The problem is, Samus is not a woman. She's not a person. She's imaginary. She does not have desires and she does not make choices; her desires are projected onto her by her creators, and her choices are made for her by her creators. Her desire to be sexy and her choice to wear stiletto rocket heels are all things artificially imposed by the developers at Bandai Namco*, the good people who think this is how you dress for a sword fight. [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0e/Ivy_Valentine.png] Trying to make those shoes an issue of Samus's agency and right to be paradoxical is badly missing the point.

I agree with you, but you're taking my question completely out of context. I was asking how someone wearing heels - either by choice or because they were designed that way - is having their integrity compromised. I don't see looking sexy as a shameful thing, though it seems apparently you do.