National Guard called into Minneapolis

[tippy2k2]

The Governors News Conference is stating that the highway didn't have barricades or anything up when the truck came through

So unknown if the picture above is fake or if they're lying...

I'm not seeing that picture outside of the random twitter account so the pic may have been fake

 

[Revnak]

These curfews are quickly becoming less a way to reduce crowds and more a way to legitimize beating the shit out of people. Edit- I’ve tried to avoid going on about the more local protests to myself, but this bullshit is exceedingly relevant to what I just said.

 

[Revnak]

a) I didn't.
b) Equating property ownership to violence is your entire ideology.

c) The red moon howls for the blood of the old world, a sacrifice is to be made.
d) False gods will yield before the beast of claws and time.
e) None of us are ready for the times to come.

 

[SupahEwok]

For ethical reasons, I need to point out that none of my posts should be taken as legal advice.

As for your question: I'm afraid I don't know the answer. I work in a boring, administrative law position, which is just what I want. But it has nothing to do with criminal law.

Each state has different statutes, so it would depend on how they define the various degrees of murder.

I remember your disclaimer, I simply asked you because you're probably the most informed in the letter of the law on these forums at present. Thanks.

 

[CM156]

I remember your disclaimer, I simply asked you because you're probably the most informed in the letter of the law on these forums at present. Thanks.

I would also add that I have become too emotionally involved with this case to serve as any sort of unbiased resource.

 

[Revnak]

Minneapolis police refuse to stop pepper spraying people, including the near victims of a massive terror attack.

 

[tstorm823]

It isn't like antifa are the only group that incites violence here. Police have incited violence. Nazis have incited violence. BLM has incited violence. Even the current president has incited violence. How many people has antifa killed? How many people have Nazi's killed? How many people have the police killed? The other groups make antifa look like care bears by comparison. When is the president going to label the far right groups that have carried out and killed more people on American soil than any other group terrorist organizations?

Don't defend those people. Don't compare to other groups. Don't do it. That's what they want. Antifa is a different thing in kind to even Nazis. Nazis are worse, don't get me wrong, but Nazi's are pretty in your face about it. Antifa's methods are to make you fight for them. Yes, true, they aren't killing people. But that isn't because they've taken a moral stance. It's because the Antifa method is to show up to other people's marches or protests, raise the tension, start a scuffle, and then hope other groups kill each other.

Antifa is a bunch of communists. They wan't a violent revolution. Remember the argument not long ago about accelerationism, and people saying they'd rather Trump in office because it will destroy the system faster? That. That's what they're doing. They go to right-wing protests, left-wing protests, civil rights demonstrations, anything with a chance of political tension. They go masked and armed because they want people to be afraid and stupid. They shout and spit and hope to start a riot. They do property damage and fist fighting at other people's demonstrations to drag the police in, and then hope for the police to conflict with innocent protesters, and then put that up as propaganda to villify the nation as a whole. They're trying to make the country worse on purpose in the hopes a militant revolution happens.

You and I may disagree on things, on what the causes of and solutions to our nation's problems are, but we both want to build a better society. Don't be tricked into defending people who are trying to tear things down. That's what they're trying to do. Antifa doesn't want to kill people themselves, that's not the purpose of their activities. The purpose is to drive other people to violence until society as we know it falls apart.

The death of George Floyd is bad, I don't mean to suggest otherwise. But moving forward from that, if as a nation we supported the peaceful demonstrations and had a dialogue about meaningful reform and we progressed, that would be a blessing out of the tragedy for almost everyone. For the nation, for the black community, for every community, for liberals and progressives and conservatives. It would be good for everyone... except the revolutionary communists who actively want us to fall to pieces. That's why antifa goes out to break things, because they don't want progress, they don't want peaceful dialogue, they want riots, and they want regular people to think riots are better than peace. Don't fall for it. They're using you.

 

[SupahEwok]

The death of George Floyd is bad, I don't mean to suggest otherwise. But moving forward from that, if as a nation we supported the peaceful demonstrations and had a dialogue about meaningful reform and we progressed, that would be a blessing out of the tragedy for almost everyone. For the nation, for the black community, for every community, for liberals and progressives and conservatives. It would be good for everyone.

Agreed.

Shame that didn't happen the last 50 times this has happened over the last 8 years.

And no, I'm not gonna look up the exact numbers, anybody who wants to try to use that as a point can fuck off.

 

[lil devils x]

Don't defend those people. Don't compare to other groups. Don't do it. That's what they want. Antifa is a different thing in kind to even Nazis. Nazis are worse, don't get me wrong, but Nazi's are pretty in your face about it. Antifa's methods are to make you fight for them. Yes, true, they aren't killing people. But that isn't because they've taken a moral stance. It's because the Antifa method is to show up to other people's marches or protests, raise the tension, start a scuffle, and then hope other groups kill each other.

Antifa is a bunch of communists. They wan't a violent revolution. Remember the argument not long ago about accelerationism, and people saying they'd rather Trump in office because it will destroy the system faster? That. That's what they're doing. They go to right-wing protests, left-wing protests, civil rights demonstrations, anything with a chance of political tension. They go masked and armed because they want people to be afraid and stupid. They shout and spit and hope to start a riot. They do property damage and fist fighting at other people's demonstrations to drag the police in, and then hope for the police to conflict with innocent protesters, and then put that up as propaganda to villify the nation as a whole. They're trying to make the country worse on purpose in the hopes a militant revolution happens.

You and I may disagree on things, on what the causes of and solutions to our nation's problems are, but we both want to build a better society. Don't be tricked into defending people who are trying to tear things down. That's what they're trying to do. Antifa doesn't want to kill people themselves, that's not the purpose of their activities. The purpose is to drive other people to violence until society as we know it falls apart.

The death of George Floyd is bad, I don't mean to suggest otherwise. But moving forward from that, if as a nation we supported the peaceful demonstrations and had a dialogue about meaningful reform and we progressed, that would be a blessing out of the tragedy for almost everyone. For the nation, for the black community, for every community, for liberals and progressives and conservatives. It would be good for everyone... except the revolutionary communists who actively want us to fall to pieces. That's why antifa goes out to break things, because they don't want progress, they don't want peaceful dialogue, they want riots, and they want regular people to think riots are better than peace. Don't fall for it. They're using you.

I have repeatedly seen Antifa have their own protests as well... Like at Trump's inauguration, and various meetings of officials and leaders. While it is true they assist other protest groups, and may even escalate, you are misrepresenting their primary objectives. From the abundance of 3rd party documentary footage that I have seen, Antifa usually puts themselves in between other protesters and the cops or aggressors and either take the damage themselves or give as good as they got. Of course there are wide variations between individual groups, but you shouldn't conflate anarchists and antifa as being the same thing even if there is some overlap among some of the groups. Antifa, anarchists and anti-capitalists have some overlap but are not all the same group.

I am not "tricked' by antifa, I am just not conflating them as all being the same thing. Antifa are anti fascists whose primary objective is to fight fascism, racism and various other far right ideology. I think you are lumping the groups together as all being the same when they're not. You are primarily describing Anarchists.

 

[Revnak]

Don't defend those people. Don't compare to other groups. Don't do it. That's what they want. Antifa is a different thing in kind to even Nazis. Nazis are worse, don't get me wrong, but Nazi's are pretty in your face about it. Antifa's methods are to make you fight for them. Yes, true, they aren't killing people. But that isn't because they've taken a moral stance. It's because the Antifa method is to show up to other people's marches or protests, raise the tension, start a scuffle, and then hope other groups kill each other.

Ever worse are the Hapsburgs. The is no low a Hapsburg will not fall to, no degeneracy they will not engage in. They claim a holy lineage, defenders of the Catholic faith, but refused to stand by the proper Hungarian Catholic people and let degenerate Orthodox Russians and Slavs rape their lands. They will align themselves with whoever will satisfy their lust for power, including the damnable Prussians.

Antifa is a bunch of communists. They wan't a violent revolution. Remember the argument not long ago about accelerationism, and people saying they'd rather Trump in office because it will destroy the system faster? That. That's what they're doing. They go to right-wing protests, left-wing protests, civil rights demonstrations, anything with a chance of political tension. They go masked and armed because they want people to be afraid and stupid. They shout and spit and hope to start a riot. They do property damage and fist fighting at other people's demonstrations to drag the police in, and then hope for the police to conflict with innocent protesters, and then put that up as propaganda to villify the nation as a whole. They're trying to make the country worse on purpose in the hopes a militant revolution happens.

The Hapsburgs too are accelerationists, trying to push the downfall of the righteous Catholic Church to the insulting Baptist Germans and bearded slobs of the Eastern churches. That way they can control the Church itself, letting them determine who is elected to the papacy all on their own. This disgusting effort will leave many damned so that they can maintain their tyrannical hold over Christendom.

You and I may disagree on things, on what the causes of and solutions to our nation's problems are, but we both want to build a better society. Don't be tricked into defending people who are trying to tear things down. That's what they're trying to do. Antifa doesn't want to kill people themselves, that's not the purpose of their activities. The purpose is to drive other people to violence until society as we know it falls apart.

The solutions to our problems are simple, and they do not involve the despicable nation of Austria, but rather a Catholic pan-Germanism. The Hapsburgs invented the nation of Austria to create a pen for all true believers among the German people, better to herd them so they can more easily be deceived. But with a proper pan-German movement we can bring an end to the loathsome Hapsburgs and the heretic Prussians.

The death of George Floyd is bad, I don't mean to suggest otherwise. But moving forward from that, if as a nation we supported the peaceful demonstrations and had a dialogue about meaningful reform and we progressed, that would be a blessing out of the tragedy for almost everyone. For the nation, for the black community, for every community, for liberals and progressives and conservatives. It would be good for everyone... except the revolutionary communists who actively want us to fall to pieces. That's why antifa goes out to break things, because they don't want progress, they don't want peaceful dialogue, they want riots, and they want regular people to think riots are better than peace. Don't fall for it. They're using you.

There will be no peace under Hapsburg rule, they see us as toys and will not tolerate our happiness. Fitting, as they possess only childlike intelligence due to their ritualistic and satanic inbreeding. They will continue to treat us as slaves, to inhibit the energy of the German people. Slavery to the Hapsburgs is not any peace I will ever accept. I will not stand idly by as my people are disgraced by inbred swine. We must claim liberty from the so called defenders of the church, for the sake of the church.

 

[Trunkage]

I would also add that I have become too emotionally involved with this case to serve as any sort of unbiased resource.

I don’t there is many people in America that could be called unbiased at the moment.
trying to find a fair jury for this is going to be a nightmare.

 

[lil devils x]

You and I may disagree on things, on what the causes of and solutions to our nation's problems are, but we both want to build a better society. Don't be tricked into defending people who are trying to tear things down. That's what they're trying to do. Antifa doesn't want to kill people themselves, that's not the purpose of their activities. The purpose is to drive other people to violence until society as we know it falls apart.

The death of George Floyd is bad, I don't mean to suggest otherwise. But moving forward from that, if as a nation we supported the peaceful demonstrations and had a dialogue about meaningful reform and we progressed, that would be a blessing out of the tragedy for almost everyone. For the nation, for the black community, for every community, for liberals and progressives and conservatives. It would be good for everyone... except the revolutionary communists who actively want us to fall to pieces. That's why antifa goes out to break things, because they don't want progress, they don't want peaceful dialogue, they want riots, and they want regular people to think riots are better than peace. Don't fall for it. They're using you.

That is just it though, how do you have meaningful dialog when we have a president who threatens people mourning the violence against their community with viscous dogs and calls any police reform Anti American? Dialog isn't going to solve this anymore because officials ALREADY know what is needed to be done here, they just refuse to do it. Half arsed going through the motions but not solving anything long term isn't going to cut it this time. That would still be the case whether or not antifa ever existed.

 

[CM156]

trying to find a fair jury for this is going to be a nightmare.

Change of venue is the best chance. Send the defendant to be tried in some remote region of Alaska.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm joking. I realize that this may not be obvious, because I've seen similar suggestions for previous police-involved shootings.

 

[Revnak]

There we go, first amendment case right there.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

The bikelock bandit, who notably went in and out without any coordination with the crowd, (edgelords are rife in riots, like the Molotovers, who always dip in and then quickly out by themselves like Clanton here did) and some people tussling over a flag (in medias res) after which someone falls over and is left alone. Amazing smoking gun there to compare to police firing people whilst sitting out on their porches and assaulting journalists when it comes to who could have been the hammer man.

"After which some-one falls over"

Dude you can see him get hit multiple times by what looks like some kind of billy club used by the AntiFA dude and he only falls after being hit over the head with it.

Hell Clanton was charged with assault with a deadly weapon. And should by rights have been charged a 2nd time for him trying to beat that elderly guy too.

Just to be clear here.

Non lethal round that if used properly will at most cause bruising or temporary things that won't require a hospital visit are bad but spilling a guys skill open is perfectly fine?

 

[tstorm823]

Shame that didn't happen the last 50 times this has happened over the last 8 years.

It did happen. Multiple times over it happened. Lists of police killings in the US. Look at those last 8 years. Notice the downward trend. The last 4 years averaged like 200 a year. The prior 4 years averaged like 600 a year. You know what happened at the start of 2016? Police leaders responded on January 29, 2016, with "Use of Force: Taking Policing to a Higher Standard". Acting like nobody is doing anything and nothing is improving is ignorant, and an insult to police and protesters alike.

That is just it though, how do you have meaningful dialog when we have a president who threatens people mourning the violence against their community with viscous dogs and calls any police reform Anti American? Dialog isn't going to solve this anymore because officials ALREADY know what is needed to be done here, they just refuse to do it. Half arsed going through the motions but not solving anything long term isn't going to cut it this time. That would still be the case whether or not antifa ever existed.

That didn't happen. The president didn't threaten people mourning. Looting isn't mourning. Was his tweet presidential? No, it was garbage. But you're exaggerating to justify more anger and that doesn't help anyone. Trump said looters dishonor the memory of George Floyd. That is not fighting mourners. That is defending them. People looting are explicitly bad for those mourning George Floyd's death. Their demonstration has been stolen from them and turned into senseless rampages in multiple cities.

Know what needs to be done? What needs to be done? Tell me what solution you have that will make it so nobody is ever murdered again, I'd love to hear it. If you think the demonstrations are meaningless, that reforms don't happen, that nobody is doing anything, you're not paying attention.

 

[lil devils x]

"After which some-one falls over"

Dude you can see him get hit multiple times by what looks like some kind of billy club used by the AntiFA dude and he only falls after being hit over the head with it.

Hell Clanton was charged with assault with a deadly weapon. And should by rights have been charged a 2nd time for him trying to beat that elderly guy too.

Just to be clear here.

Non lethal round that if used properly will at most cause bruising or temporary things that won't require a hospital visit are bad but spilling a guys skill open is perfectly fine?

'Eyeball exploded': Rubber bullet blinds photojournalist

A photographer documenting protests in Minneapolis says she’s been left permanently blind in one eye after being shot by a rubber bullet fired by police.

www.thechronicle.com.au

Hong Kong protests: Rubber bullet blinds journalist in one eye

Police use of force draws protests in Hong Kong after a reporter loses sight in one eye during unrest.

www.bbc.com

Tens half blind in Chile as riot police open fire with rubber bullets close range

Running away as shots rang out, Carlos Vivanco turned to see where they were coming from. Then he felt his left eye closing and his face dripping with blood. The 18-year-old student had become one of the scores of people hit in the eyes, and in some cases blinded, by police rubber bullets in...

en.mercopress.com

Permanent blindness is no biggie right?

As with all non-lethal or less-lethal weapons, there is some risk of serious permanent injury or death when tear gas is used.[6][7][1] This includes risks from being hit by tear gas cartridges that may cause severe bruising, loss of eyesight, or skull fracture, resulting in death.[8] A case of serious vascular injury from tear gas shells has also been reported from Iran, with high rates of associated nerve injury (44%) and amputation (17%),[9] as well as instances of head injuries in young people.[10]

While the medical consequences of the gases themselves are typically limited to minor skin inflammation, delayed complications are also possible. People with pre-existing respiratory conditions such as asthma are particularly at risk. They are likely to need medical attention[2] and may sometimes require hospitalization or even ventilation support.[11] Skin exposure to CS may cause chemical burns[12] or induce allergic contact dermatitis.[2][3] When people are hit at close range or are severely exposed, eye injuries involving scarring of the cornea can lead to a permanent loss in visual acuity.[13] Frequent or high levels of exposure carry increased risks of respiratory illness.[1

Tear gas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Use of tear gas in warfare, as with all other chemical weapons, is prohibited by various international treaties that most states have signed.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Antifa is a bunch of communists.

It would be much more technically correct to say anarchists.

They go to right-wing protests, left-wing protests, civil rights demonstrations, anything with a chance of political tension. They go masked and armed because they want people to be afraid and stupid. They shout and spit and hope to start a riot. They do property damage and fist fighting at other people's demonstrations to drag the police in, and then hope for the police to conflict with innocent protesters, and then put that up as propaganda to villify the nation as a whole. They're trying to make the country worse on purpose in the hopes a militant revolution happens.

I mean, not really.

Accelerationism (which is, broadly speaking, an anarchist idea) isn't about making society bad, it's about exposing publicly the way society already is bad. Because most people have a remarkable capacity to ignore the violence inherent in the system. This whole thing is happening because police murdered someone in a horrifying and sadistic way, and because police murdering people and using extreme and terrible violence is not an uncommon occurrence. It is not a coincidence, it is not a random or isolated event, it is the violence inherent in the system, the violence which some people have to live every day of their lives under threat of. That is what vilifies the nation as a whole.

When you see police attacking innocent people, you are seeing what the police really are, and what they do when they think (or know) that you are too complacent to do anything about it. You are assuming that provoking police into escalation requires some heroic act of incitement, when the reality is that police have enormous freedom in terms of how they are able to respond to protest. When they bring the tear gas and rubber bullets, it's because they wanted to.

The death of George Floyd is bad, I don't mean to suggest otherwise. But moving forward from that, if as a nation we supported the peaceful demonstrations and had a dialogue about meaningful reform and we progressed, that would be a blessing out of the tragedy for almost everyone.

Be honest. If the demonstrations had been entirely peaceful, you probably wouldn't even acknowledge they were happening.

The moderate majority would have long since sagely shaken their heads, acknowledged that the death of George Floyd was a terrible tragedy and, their consciences now clear, politely filed it into a growing folder of regrettable but isolated incidents in which a cop was in a difficult position and bla bla bla. We would have long since moved into thoughts and prayers and demands for healing and conciliation. Because, what we really need at this critical time is calm and peace and dignity. That's what George Floyd would have wanted. Not for us to be angry or blame each other, but for us to forgive each other. The world needs more love.

This is the sad reality of why accelerationism makes sense, and why it is necessary. I don't like violence, but if violence is the only thing that is going to make you see the violence and injustice that is already happening around you, then I would choose violence every time. You don't deserve to live in a peace that isn't available to everyone.

 

[SupahEwok]

It did happen. Multiple times over it happened. Lists of police killings in the US. Look at those last 8 years. Notice the downward trend. The last 4 years averaged like 200 a year. The prior 4 years averaged like 600 a year. You know what happened at the start of 2016? Police leaders responded on January 29, 2016, with "Use of Force: Taking Policing to a Higher Standard". Acting like nobody is doing anything and nothing is improving is ignorant, and an insult to police and protesters alike.

Random link found on the first google page when searching for Use of Force: Taking Policing to a Higher Standard.

Nationally recognized expert on police risk management and PoliceOne Editorial Advisory Board member Mildred O’Linn said this about the PERF report:

As for the latest PERF publication, "Use of Force: Taking Police to a Higher Standard," the document is a continuation of the politically motivated, irrational and unrealistic approach to use of force that was presented at the conference in May 2015. Perhaps this lack of understanding is based on isolation in academia, or perhaps it has to do with a pure political agenda. It certainly is not premised on any concern for the safety of law enforcement personnel or even for the law abiding citizens that are in need of the assistance of law enforcement protection. Law enforcement officers must be confident in their actions as they respond to situations which require split-second decisions in life threatening circumstances. Hesitation and doubt, coupled with fear of potential consequences, are seriously problematic in such circumstances. The decision-making process and the choices officers face are tough enough without adding the ridiculous and impossible criteria proposed by PERF.

A non-legally binding memo is hardly reformative policy.

As for your numbers, Wikipedia is not a source for precise statistical information in the last 15 years. Notice how the numbers in recent years fluctuate up and down by the hundreds, and that Wikipedia itself says "The numbers show how many killings are described in the linked lists, not the actual number of people killed by law enforcement."

Here's a source for a database with 1,004 deaths by police in 2019.

 

[tstorm823]

It would be much more technically correct to say anarchists.



I mean, not really.

Accelerationism (which is, broadly speaking, an anarchist idea) isn't about making society bad, it's about exposing publicly the way society already is bad. Because most people have a remarkable capacity to ignore the violence inherent in the system. This whole thing is happening because police murdered someone in a horrifying and sadistic way, and because police murdering people and using extreme and terrible violence is not an uncommon occurrence. It is not a coincidence, it is not a random or isolated event, it is the violence inherent in the system, the violence which some people have to live every day of their lives under threat of. That is what vilifies the nation as a whole.

When you see police attacking innocent people, you are seeing what the police really are, and what they do when they think (or know) that you are too complacent to do anything about it. You are assuming that provoking police into escalation requires some heroic act of incitement, when the reality is that police have enormous freedom in terms of how they are able to respond to protest. When they bring the tear gas and rubber bullets, it's because they wanted to.

Be honest. If the demonstrations had been entirely peaceful, you probably wouldn't even acknowledge they were happening.

The moderate majority would have long since sagely shaken their heads, acknowledged that the death of George Floyd was a terrible tragedy and, their consciences now clear, politely filed it into a growing folder of regrettable but isolated incidents in which a cop was in a difficult position and bla bla bla. We would have long since moved into thoughts and prayers and demands for healing and conciliation. Because, what we really need at this critical time is calm and peace and dignity. That's what George Floyd would have wanted. Not for us to be angry or blame each other, but for us to forgive each other. The world needs more love.

This is the sad reality of why accelerationism makes sense, and why it is necessary. I don't like violence, but if violence is the only thing that is going to make you see the violence and injustice that is already happening around you, then I would choose violence every time. You don't deserve to live in a peace that isn't available to everyone.

Thank you for responding. If anyone doubts the accuracy of my assessment, I need only point them to you.

Violence is inherent to human nature. We have a system to diminish the violence, not cause it. Your point of view is antithetical to progressive and conservative viewpoints alike.