Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

[Thaluikhain]

I think America being a young nation

A quibble, but you can argue that the US is one of the world's oldest nations, as it has a continuity that most places lost in the last hundred years or so. "Germany" might be old, in one sense, but in another there were several Germanies of about one generation each during the 20th century.

So yeah point is, it's a very uniquely american take to only start counting history from a more recent starting point,

Erm...is it an uniquely US thing? Do we not see this in Canada, New Zealand, Australia etc? Serious, if off-topic question. I guess you could say that those nations never rebelled from the UK, so they can claim UK history or something in a way that the US can't.

Of course, getting rather off topic here.

 

[Dreiko]

A quibble, but you can argue that the US is one of the world's oldest nations, as it has a continuity that most places lost in the last hundred years or so. "Germany" might be old, in one sense, but in another there were several Germanies of about one generation each during the 20th century.



Erm...is it an uniquely US thing? Do we not see this in Canada, New Zealand, Australia etc? Serious, if off-topic question. I guess you could say that those nations never rebelled from the UK, so they can claim UK history or something in a way that the US can't.

Of course, getting rather off topic here.

Yeah I'm not very well versed in those other nations as I am with the US cause I've been living here for a bunch of years now but a saying I've heard is that if you have queen on your money you're still kinda British, it's more of a joke but I guess not entirely.

 

[Revnak]

First, this isn't about Italy or the Roman Empire, so that's a red herring.

Analogies are illegal. Sure.

Second, it's pointless to go to the roots of anti-semitism in of itself, which depending on who you ask, go at least as far back as Egypt and Greece.

Yes, that’s my point.

Third, unlike the above examples, there's a clear causal link from the emergence of Islam, to the scattering/slaughtering of Jews, to the state of affairs that we have today in the Middle East. A state of affairs that Zionism undoubtedly played a part in exacerbating, as I've stated, but this isn't a vacuum. You can't separate the Holocaust from Europe's history of anti-semitism, no matter how many people might want to, and have attempted to do so in some circles. Similarly, the Arab world doesn't get a free pass on its treatment of Jews and other minorities simply because of Israel.

You also can’t explain the Holocaust through Europe’s history of anti-Semitism, at least if the history you’re talking about skips over the 19th century. Much as you absolutely cannot skip over that century to explain Arab-Jewish relations as “they expelled us now we expel them, fair’s fair.”

Fourth, if anti-semitism in the Arab world is solely attributable to the creation of Israel, it's an case of effect preceeding cause. Zionism began in the 19th century, Jews began moving into Israel in the late 19th century, Mandate Palestine became a thing after the end of WWI, Israel was created in 1947. As I've said, anti-semitism in the Arab world has waxed and waned by time and location, but there was an upsurge in anti-Jewish sentiment in the 19th century and continued onwards, well before Israel was established, and it's common in Muslim countries well outside the Middle East, even if not to the same extent.

I never said that.

Fifth, even if it was, it takes a warped mind to say "country is bad, so it's justifiable to treat people of that country poorly."

...uh, you do realize you’re the one minimizing nationalism as a cause by saying western imperialism isn’t essential to explaining the problem.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Um...

Not sure what capitalism has to do with this. Certainly nothing to do with anti-semitism or anti-Zionism or, well, anything.

tstorm823 is under the impression that only anticapitalists should object to bombing highrise residential towers or keeping Gaza's drinking water poisoned.

 

[Trunkage]

Um, the Islamic conquests of the 7th century? As I stated?

If you're asking about specific tribes, there's the Qaynuqa and the Nadir, for instance.

I was wondering if you were talking about the expulsion from the Arabian peninsula.

And so we are overlaying onto how these Jews were treated onto all Jews were treated in the middle east during that century?

 

[tstorm823]

Um...

Not sure what capitalism has to do with this. Certainly nothing to do with anti-semitism or anti-Zionism or, well, anything.

It's an important thing to understand the people you're interacting with. Communism was formulated in a specific context in history, thus the handful of communists on this website aren't interested in any historical events older than that context, because they can't blame things older than that on capitalism or nationalism or any of their favorite 19-20th century boogeymen.

 

[Seanchaidh]

It's an important thing to understand the people you're interacting with. Communism was formulated in a specific context in history, thus the handful of communists on this website aren't interested in any historical events older than that context, because they can't blame things older than that on capitalism or nationalism or any of their favorite 19-20th century boogeymen.

Do you not realize how unhinged this sounds?

 

[Revnak]

It's an important thing to understand the people you're interacting with. Communism was formulated in a specific context in history, thus the handful of communists on this website aren't interested in any historical events older than that context, because they can't blame things older than that on capitalism or nationalism or any of their favorite 19-20th century boogeymen.

Imagine telling a peasant living under the brutality of the Golden Horde that they’re short sighted for only caring about the brief period of history since the Mongol conquests. The boarders of Palestine and every neighboring country were made up by the British as part of a series of treaties after they conquered the region in the bloodiest war in history at the time. The divisions were setup to maximize British oil profits and to attain control by pitting ethnic groups against one another, as the British repeatedly did. To call western imperialism a “boogeyman” in the face of what it did to the region is objectively hilarious.

 

[Seanchaidh]

I think if you don't want to be accused of starting a fire, you probably shouldn't take to the streets triumphantly singing and dancing about it where it happened..


I don't know, maybe that's just me.

 

[tstorm823]

Do you not realize how unhinged this sounds?

If I were talking with regularly people out in the world and said something like that, sure, I can see how that might sound a bit offputting. But like, you are a communist. I'm not putting words in your mouth to say that. It's not a red scare, jumping at shadows. I'm acknowledging your stated ideology.

I think if you don't want to be accused of starting a fire, you probably shouldn't take to the streets triumphantly singing and dancing about it where it happened..

May 10th was Jerusalem Day, a national holiday in Israel. A celebration in Jerusalem ending at the Western Wall was a preplanned event that happens every year in the Jewish calendar. To describe that as "taking to the streets triumphantly", as though a spontaneous response to a tree burning down, is exactly the type of propaganda you've been perpetuating.
Same event in 2015
Same event in 2016
Now, I'm sure nothing I can say will ever convince you there's even a remote possibility that fire wasn't a spontaneous aggressive assault by Israeli police, but the clashes between Palestinian protestors and Israeli police had been going on for weeks, and there were reports (yes based on Israeli statements) that fireworks and rocks were stockpiled in al Aqsa a few days before, and stockpiling throwable weapons at the top of the wall a day or two before a planned celebration at the bottom of the wall is not a good look.

To call western imperialism a “boogeyman” in the face of what it did to the region is objectively hilarious.

And nobody said that's not relevant, only that there are other, older factors.

 

[Revnak]

And nobody said that's not relevant, only that there are other, older factors.

You don't need Western imperialism to explain Arab-Jewish enmity.

 

[tstorm823]

Shouldn't you be arguing that Arab-Jewish enmity is not the sole cause of tensions in the region, rather than implying the British have mind control to force people to hate each other?

 

[Revnak]

Shouldn't you be arguing that Arab-Jewish enmity is not the sole cause of tensions in the region, rather than implying the British have mind control to force people to hate each other?

I don’t want to.

 

[Seanchaidh]

I'm not putting words in your mouth to say that. It's not a red scare, jumping at shadows. I'm acknowledging your stated ideology.

You haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about.

May 10th was Jerusalem Day, a national holiday in Israel.

Either

1)They normally sing songs in which they ask God to give them the strength to wipe out the Palestinians on this national holiday, or
2)They are singing about that as a result of the fire.

Does it even matter which?

 

[Trunkage]

Shouldn't you be arguing that Arab-Jewish enmity is not the sole cause of tensions in the region, rather than implying the British have mind control to force people to hate each other?

Mind control? They paid ideological oppenents in weapons etc so they would fight instead of organizing to fight the protectorate.

I wouldn't call it mind control. I don't think the British or French cared not one whit about whether the side liked or hated each other. It's just a by product

Edit: The Ottoman's did give some of the Palestinians some political power... but they were used in a similar fashion by the Turks to control different regions. It's how Empires work

 

[tstorm823]

You haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about.

But you're not going to say what I don't know, just insist that I don't. Helpful.

Either

1)They normally sing songs in which they ask God to give them the strength to wipe out the Palestinians on this national holiday, or
2)They are singing about that as a result of the fire.

Does it even matter which?

Yes. Jerusalem Day is a celebration of winning the war in 1967. A song asking God for strength to defeat enemies sung in celebration of a historical battle is not what you're making it out to be. The song used the phrase yimakh sheman, meaning "may their names be erased" in the sense of forgotten by history, which the internet has chosen to translate as "may their progeny be erased" without really any justification other than the desire to make it a song about genocide.

So yes, it's option 1, but they aren't singing about genociding the Palestinians, they are celebrating winning a war against them and their allies, which I would say is a distinction.

 

[tstorm823]

It's just a by product

It's not a byproduct. The enmity between the two groups is 1000 years older than the age of imperialism. It's perfectly reasonable to suggest western powers exploited existing tensions, but they didn't make them.

 

[Seanchaidh]

But you're not going to say what I don't know, just insist that I don't. Helpful.

Pretty sure there's a parable about this one.

Yes. Jerusalem Day is a celebration of winning the war in 1967. A song asking God for strength to defeat enemies sung in celebration of a historical battle is not what you're making it out to be. The song used the phrase yimakh sheman, meaning "may their names be erased" in the sense of forgotten by history, which the internet has chosen to translate as "may their progeny be erased" without really any justification other than the desire to make it a song about genocide.

So yes, it's option 1, but they aren't singing about genociding the Palestinians, they are celebrating winning a war against them and their allies, which I would say is a distinction.

The flames are visible from where they are ecstatically singing and dancing.

 

[Trunkage]

It's not a byproduct. The enmity between the two groups is 1000 years older than the age of imperialism. It's perfectly reasonable to suggest western powers exploited existing tensions, but they didn't make them.

Awesome. Who said they started the tensions?

 

[tstorm823]

The flames are visible from where they are ecstatically singing and dancing.

And? The Western Wall is the wall of the Temple Mount. The al Aqsa mosque is on top of the Temple Mount. It is a shared holy site between Islam and Judaism. I literally linked you footage of the same event in the same location from previous years. They weren't there to celebrate the fire. It's really easily seen that isn't what happened.