Marvel's L0Ki Discussion Thread

[happyninja42]

Teeny tiny one that I saw. Very small. I pay attention to this sort of thing and have to write, this isn't bad at all.

Well that's good at least.

ITMT: I am bored of Norse G-ds karate fighting normal humans. Loki's physical strength is on par with Thor's. He is using magic, so that isn't nullified. Anyone normalish human should be a plaything for him. Any gang of them should be an amusement for him.

Trying to recall if Cap harms him in Avengers (They tussle briefly). I think Cap had to be saved by Iron Man.

I seem to recall they established his magic doesn't work against the TVA? And that they are not "normalish" humans?

In Avengers, yes Cap did lose to Loki in a 1v1, but that's not really a good metric, because later, Cap is able to hold off 5 Stone Thanos just by sheer Beard Power and being a Determinator. As DBZA said "Power levels are bullshit!"

It's always going to vary based on the needs of the narrative. Plus there is nothing at all wrong with the idea of people being caught off guard, surprised, previous opponents getting stronger and learning from past mistakes, and people becoming weaker, or less focused, making them vulnerable when previously they weren't.

As to everyone doing martial arts in movie fight scenes....*shrugs* I mean it's what is popular, it's what the stunt teams are trained in, it's the standard method of doing fighting, so it's just logical, IMO, that they stick to that.

 

[Dalisclock]

As to everyone doing martial arts in movie fight scenes....*shrugs* I mean it's what is popular, it's what the stunt teams are trained in, it's the standard method of doing fighting, so it's just logical, IMO, that they stick to that.

I imagine because it looks cooler on screen too and having the heros shooting people creates a lot of messy carnage(though normally they get around that giving everyone Lasers that just so happen to look like actual guns). There's also the issue of having people missing a lot to draw out the fight scenes but then it looks like everyone is a lousy shot.

Martial Arts can be violent and flashy but not too violent and they can handwave it being non-lethal if they want, so it makes it perfect for movies and the screen.

 

[happyninja42]

I imagine because it looks cooler on screen too and having the heros shooting people creates a lot of messy carnage(though normally they get around that giving everyone Lasers that just so happen to look like actual guns). There's also the issue of having people missing a lot to draw out the fight scenes but then it looks like everyone is a lousy shot.

Martial Arts can be violent and flashy but not too violent and they can handwave it being non-lethal if they want, so it makes it perfect for movies and the screen.

Well another thing to consider, is if they try and make up some "Asgardian-Fu" or something, that means actively trying to make a non-traditional style, that DOESN'T look like a regular earth style, so that's time and resources for the stunt team to try and brainstorm that. If they try and get really creative, and consider things like "Ok but like, she's got 4 arms right? And a prehensile tail right? Let's incorporate those in too!" And then they have to figure out "ok well, now how do we replicate that entirely fictional shit, with a stunt woman, and actress, who both DON'T have 4 arms and a prehensile tail?" Which, the answer is probably going to be "Lot's of CGI (which costs more money than just 2 people punching in front of a camera), and wire work" It just seems more practical to me, to just let them go all Kung Fu on each other, and leave it at that.

I'm looking at it from the "practical, easiest, least costly way to film this shit" perspective. Though I'm mostly trying to view it from "what puts the least amount of workload/hassle on the actual people making this thing. Crew, actors, stunt team, CGI techs, etc"

In my opinion, there are already SO many other layers of things they have to just handwave away, to justify telling any story, without someone going "Yeah but what about doing X to solve that problem right away" That handwaving away "yeah they all do Kung Fu" isn't even a blip on my radar.

 

[Dalisclock]

So, is anyone remotely shocked that The TVA is apparently been brainwashing(and possibly abducting) people to work for them, which might include everyone there? I mean, they're already a bit sketchy and Miss Minutes is basically their Corpo/Agency PR shill(unless it turns out she's really running the TVA all along) so honestly this doesn't surprise me at all.

 

[SilentPony]

SNIP

TBH its kinda hard to give a shit about the gender fluidity of a character who's entire thing is lying and being a trickster. I mean just one of his powers is just changing forms. He's been Captain America, a frost giant, a snake, Sif...He can just change form whenever. Its like the Doctor being gender fluid...like yeah sure, they're already everything else fluid, why is this part unique?
There's sorta a deal being made about Lady Loki and its like okay? Either of them can change gender at will. What gender you're born as doesn't matter much when magical trickster God is a thing.

 

[happyninja42]

TBH its kinda hard to give a shit about the gender fluidity of a character who's entire thing is lying and being a trickster. I mean just one of his powers is just changing forms. He's been Captain America, a frost giant, Sif...He can just change form whenever. Its like the Doctor being gender fluid...like yeah sure, they're already everything else fluid, why is this part unique?

Right but, that's my point, people lost their shit about The Doctor being gender flipped. I was curious if there had been a similar uproar about Loki. Because you know the group that typically loses their shit about that stuff.

And yes, I do agree, it is stupid, given the historical details about the character in question. But that's never stopped idiots from being angry about idiotic things.

 

[SilentPony]

Right but, that's my point, people lost their shit about The Doctor being gender flipped. I was curious if there had been a similar uproar about Loki. Because you know the group that typically loses their shit about that stuff.

And yes, I do agree, it is stupid, given the historical details about the character in question. But that's never stopped idiots from being angry about idiotic things.

Fair. I guess the Dr. Who fans have a lot more history to cite? Like with Loki he was already a secondary character in a tertiary series of movies, now relegated to a quaternary TV show. Even without his body changing powers, getting worked up over him being gender fluid is like getting worked up over, I dunno...Big Wheel, the Tinkerer's henchman and sometimes Deadpool enemy, came out as gay. Its a minor detail in an already minor character and story.

 

[happyninja42]

Fair. I guess the Dr. Who fans have a lot more history to cite? Like with Loki he was already a secondary character in a tertiary series of movies, now relegated to a quaternary TV show. Even without his body changing powers, getting worked up over him being gender fluid is like getting worked up over, I dunno...Big Wheel, the Tinkerer's henchman and sometimes Deadpool enemy, came out as gay. Its a minor detail in an already minor character and story.

Well, these people lost their shit about Mr. Potato Head so I put nothing past them and their gender fury.

 

[SilentPony]

Well, these people lost their shit about Mr. Potato Head so I put nothing past them and their gender fury.

Wasn't the whole Mr. Potato Head controversy just based on a lie? Like full stop, the idea Mr. Potato Head was gender neutral was just not true. All they did was create a third packaging for "Potato Head" alongside the still existing Mr. Potato Head and Mrs. Potato Head. It had nothing to do with politically correct gender pronouns, and was just a new packaging.

 

[happyninja42]

Wasn't the whole Mr. Potato Head controversy just based on a lie? Like full stop, the idea Mr. Potato Head was gender neutral was just not true. All they did was create a third packaging for "Potato Head" alongside the still existing Mr. Potato Head and Mrs. Potato Head. It had nothing to do with politically correct gender pronouns, and was just a new packaging.

*shrugs* I didn't pay it much attention, as I don't care what the gender classification is for a toy that very few children these days, likely still play with, given how many digital toys they have access to. It feels very much like an Old Man Yells at Obsolete Cloud kind of thing.

I don't want to derail this thread about the show any further, was mostly just curious. Apparently it's not a big issue. So that's good.

 

[SilentPony]

*shrugs* I didn't pay it much attention, as I don't care what the gender classification is for a toy that very few children these days, likely still play with, given how many digital toys they have access to. It feels very much like an Old Man Yells at Obsolete Cloud kind of thing.

I don't want to derail this thread about the show any further, was mostly just curious. Apparently it's not a big issue. So that's good.

Fair.
To get back on thread, the whole thing with the TVA being like enslaved variants in service to an all knowing, controlling extra-dimensional nameless and faceless time God is really baby's first corporate metaphor. And obvious from like the very first episode.
The premise reminded me a lot of that show The Good Place, where it could have only gone two directions; no one belonged there, or it wasn't the Good Place.
Same with Loki. It could have only gone two directions: Loki wasn't a variant and is being manipulated, or they're all variants and the TVA aren't the good guys.

 

[happyninja42]

It could have only gone two directions: Loki wasn't a variant and is being manipulated, or they're all variants and the TVA aren't the good guys.

Well it is pretty standard to have the "giant, faceless corporation, that REALLY loves to tell you they're the good guys" ....not actually be the good guys. I haven't seen the show, but just the various imagery I've seen, definitely feels like they're trying to channel some Orwellian 1984 kind of vibes with the control factor. The happy talking time clock and stuff, just screams "not what I seem." Yeah, that is pretty cliche at this point. But then again, so is Loki's "bad guy turned good through trials and tribulations" storyline. And in that, you tend to have to have them pitted against something even more evil than them, so they can have a moment of "ok yeah but I'm not THAT bad." To justify their rebellion. So you can have them defy the rules, be rebellious, and it not lead to bad things happening to good people. So yeah, the TVA being the actual bad guys, seems pretty apparent.

I'd actually really like a show, that genuinely had the "big organization with this agenda" ACTUALLY be legit. "Yes we are a secret organization, that finds special children with powers, and recruits them to try and help humanity.....no that's not a front....no, we're NOT secretly farming their organs for scientific study, we DO have a scientific wing however, but it's run by the very kids we are recruiting, and all the tests are voluntary and fairly non-invasive. No we're not secretly another secret organization, within our organization, trying to rule the world. We JUST want to make the world a safer place, and we hope these kids can help. Yes I'm being serious! Why do I have to ALWAYS make this disclaimer every time we recruit a new person!?"

 

[gorfias]

Well that's good at least.


I seem to recall they established his magic doesn't work against the TVA? And that they are not "normalish" humans?

In Avengers, yes Cap did lose to Loki in a 1v1, but that's not really a good metric, because later, Cap is able to hold off 5 Stone Thanos just by sheer Beard Power and being a Determinator. As DBZA said "Power levels are bullshit!"

It's always going to vary based on the needs of the narrative. Plus there is nothing at all wrong with the idea of people being caught off guard, surprised, previous opponents getting stronger and learning from past mistakes, and people becoming weaker, or less focused, making them vulnerable when previously they weren't.

As to everyone doing martial arts in movie fight scenes....*shrugs* I mean it's what is popular, it's what the stunt teams are trained in, it's the standard method of doing fighting, so it's just logical, IMO, that they stick to that.

Spoiler

latest episode, they're fighting against these sort of military types I think are normal humanoids. And the TVA can be vulnerable to magic. And should be vulnerable to Loki's strength.

I did hear a theory that Cap is touching the Infinity Gauntlet and that for a moment, Thanos can see into Steve's very soul and is momentarily impressed. And then decks him.

But a lot of Marvel movies are simply people having power the writer's want them having when they want them having it. If Thanos and Hulk really got it on in a space ship? Everyone would have died as the whole thing got torn apart.

 

[happyninja42]

But a lot of Marvel movies are simply people having power the writer's want them having when they want them having it. If Thanos and Hulk really got it on in a space ship? Everyone would have died as the whole thing got torn apart.

Honestly that's not unique to the MCU. That's a staple of...well, pretty much any story that has weird ass powers and abilities. They flipflop around at the writer's whim, to fit the story. The comics, both Marvel and DC are guilty of this, for decades. Cartoons, tv series, you name it.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

Thought the latest episode should have gone better. Wasn't very interesting in my opinion, and felt just off.

Sylvie's actress has yet to impress me, her character comes off as childish rather than some mastermind. I also feel like I know exactly what her origin is.

Some pretty sketchy green screen work too, I thought they'd be using the Mandalorian tech.

Edit: Oh and I think the power scaling discussion is relevant again. The hell was that with Loki and the building?

 

[laggyteabag]

I must admit that Im not really feeling this show, so far.

3 episodes in, and I feel like I am watching this out of habit, more than Im watching it because I want to.

Ah well, the second half of most shows is usually where things pick up

 

[SilentPony]

I must admit that Im not really feeling this show, so far.

3 episodes in, and I feel like I am watching this out of habit, more than Im watching it because I want to.

Ah well, the second half of most shows is usually where things pick up

See I think the show is a dud. They don't have a concrete narrative, the music is just bland and unnoticeable which means they don't know what tone they're going for, the sets are all uninspired and cheap looking, Lady Loki is a non-starter character. All of it adds up to a show that has no where to go, and is just treading water and desperately trying to find a way to get Loki to start the multiverse.
I get the feeling the pitch meeting went in reverse, with the Suits saying the end needs to be breaking open the Mulitverse, now who is free at the moment? Tom Hiddleson? But his character Loki is dead, isn't that going to be confusing? Not if we make the whole thing confusing!
The whole show feels like a means to an end, with everything but the end just filler.

 

[happyninja42]

I must admit that Im not really feeling this show, so far.

3 episodes in, and I feel like I am watching this out of habit, more than Im watching it because I want to.

Ah well, the second half of most shows is usually where things pick up

That's how I felt watching WandaVision. I just really didn't have much investment in it. Not watching Loki, mostly because I'm just not terribly interested in it? And MCU stuff in general these days. I can't really drum up enough motivation to actually sit down and start any of these series. The only show that I'm currently debating watching again, that I stopped watching, is The Expanse. But, anything MCU these days? Eh, hit or miss.

 

[SilentPony]

That's how I felt watching WandaVision. I just really didn't have much investment in it. Not watching Loki, mostly because I'm just not terribly interested in it? And MCU stuff in general these days. I can't really drum up enough motivation to actually sit down and start any of these series. The only show that I'm currently debating watching again, that I stopped watching, is The Expanse. But, anything MCU these days? Eh, hit or miss.

I think Covid destroyed their production and release schedule, and they don't know what to do. Movies are backed up. When you look at the current release schedule, its one movie after another every two months like clockwork. Phase 4 is actually going to be really short compared to the others, like 18 months long. So the TV shows are in part how they fast forward the story to get characters from point A to point B in time for a movie.
But that then means the TV shows aren't shows, they're extended stinger clips at the end credits. They're not self contained and have to tell someone else's story.

 

[happyninja42]

I think Covid destroyed their production and release schedule, and they don't know what to do. Movies are backed up. When you look at the current release schedule, its one movie after another every two months like clockwork. Phase 4 is actually going to be really short compared to the others, like 18 months long. So the TV shows are in part how they fast forward the story to get characters from point A to point B in time for a movie.
But that then means the TV shows aren't shows, they're extended stinger clips at the end credits. They're not self contained and have to tell someone else's story.

Oh I understand, and appreciate that covid borked their plans, and these shows are damage control. That doesn't change the fact that I have little to no drive to want to see them. I also don't have a lot of drive to see the upcoming films either. I don't even know what the release schedule is planned to be, nor do I really care.

I was already suffering from MCU-fatigue in phase 3, with several of the films just not doing it for me, and others being just ok. I think the point that made my little nerdy heart just sort of give up, was what they did with Gammora in Infinity War/Endgame.

To me, that was the first, blatant example of comic book retconning (and it was on purpose too) I've seen in the films. Not just a different take on a character, or story line, which I'm fine with. But, no, a straight up "We say X, but then completely undo X" And now all I see ahead of us, are the ridiculous, changing of writers, altering storylines, altering plots with "alternate histories" or whatever, to justify bringing back these characters, and changing them. And I'm frankly just so tired of it already, and it hasn't even happened yet.