Funny events in anti-woke world

[Dwarvenhobble]

If somebody says, "Oh, so you're fine with [killing people/ eating babies/ bombing puppies], are you?!?", nobody in their right mind would conclude that it's a question asked in good faith, rather than an obviously hostile accusation.

The idea that it was a question asked in good faith is so laughable, it's almost like something from a Mitchell and Webb sketch.

In short: I didn't tell you your intent. You made your intent blindingly obvious when you started throwing shit at people.

Seems more like an issue of you projecting your beliefs onto me again and trying to once again tell me what I believe or intended.

Bit of a habit you seem to have of doing that, should I leave you and the Strawman you seem to want to argue with alone for a while?

Pray tell, what specific wrongdoing does the term "harmful" indicate?

Is it assault? Battery? Murder? Stalking? Those are all demonstrable terms. Which is it?

Mental or physical damage that requires time or effort to heal beyond a simple hurt feeling.

Someone explicitly condones criticism, and never mentions abuse or harassment.

You accuse them directly of condoning abuse and harassment.

"Except I very clearly wasn't" is just the nineteenth empty denial to plop onto the pile, as if it's worth anything at all.

They brought up criticism in response to people saying cancel culture is bad and specifically in this context death threats, abuse and libel.

As I said either conflation or deflection.
Which BTW picking deflection would mean no they didn't believe it they just like the present outcome and didn't want to acknowledge the way said result happened.

 

[Agema]

More broadly because there are some cis women who don't accept that trans women are women, and as such they have a problem with trans women in what they consider to be cis women-only spaces.

Do you think there aren't plenty of men who don't consider trans men to be men?

 

[CriticalGaming]

I would suspect some aspect of the following.

*disclaimer* This is my theory on the mindset of anti-trans, not my thoughts on the subject.

Trans men just seem to be statistically less common? Or at least less likely to be out. And, I also think there is something of a cultural acceptance of "butch chicks" being able to muscle it out in sports. So, in the view of someone who is anti-trans in sports, the idea of a woman, beefing up and out-performing dudes in some competition, doesn't really seem out of place in their world view. They see the women coming from a place of weakness by comparison, so there is less blowback? This isn't a sure thing of course, as I'm certain some of them have decried "testosterone! it's cheating!" Though usually the shots they are taking are usually to just bring them up to "male normal" levels, not beyond.

But, some guy, "pretending" to be a woman, and going and crushing all our poor, helpless daughters who are trying to do sports, is unfair in their minds.

I would pose another question.

Do transmen face less stigma because they "pass" as men better? Therefore the "weirdness" that people feel towards transgender people is lessened because the person in question is passing as the gender they claim is true to who they are?

i know that personally when i see someone like Kalvin Garrah, or Mack Beggs my first instinct towards them is boys. i did a brief google search for Transmen and the vast majority of them just looked like normal dudes to me. Most, if not all of them, I would think were guys in general until told that there were trans.

Meanwhile you have giant slabs of beef like Laurell Hubbard who doesn't even bother to shave her fucking hugely hairy manpits, nor have I ever seen any picture of them with make-up or clothing that would make them appear as they truly feel like a woman. To me, and I'm sorry I know this is probably wrong, to me it looks to me like a guy who was a shitty powerlifter as a man had decided to become a women because they felt like they could win easier if they competed with women. So desperate they were for some glory that they transitioned (in the bare minimum way possible) in order to grasp that glory. That is what I think when I see Laurell. Like i said I know that is probably wrong, but perception and optics are important things.

As for transwomen, honestly the only two people I've ever see as transwomen that made me double take were Caitlyn Jenner (who if I didn't know Bruce beforehand i would have never guess tbh) and Blair White. I watched a shitload of Blair's videos before she said she was trans and it blew my fucking mind. Oh and the transwoman who won Ms. Nevada recently Kataluna Enriquez, who is like really hot wow.

Look at other famous trans incidents and people and it just doesn't look like anything more than a dude in girls clothing. For example the Gamestop raging "IT"S MA'AM" Person. I mean for fucks sake, deep ass voice, very male aggressive behavior. So if i had to take a guess, it's this kind of thing that makes it harder or even impossible for people to accept.

 

[Silvanus]

Seems more like an issue of you projecting your beliefs onto me again and trying to once again tell me what I believe or intended.

Oh, OK! So what you're saying is, you're fine with the police monitoring thoughts, then??

Mental or physical damage that requires time or effort to heal beyond a simple hurt feeling.

Quantified how?

Because at present, that definition is so loose it could apply to almost anyone.

They brought up criticism in response to people saying cancel culture is bad and specifically in this context death threats, abuse and libel.

...and the various things you were condemning which were not abusive or libelous.

 

[happyninja42]

I would pose another question.

Do transmen face less stigma because they "pass" as men better? Therefore the "weirdness" that people feel towards transgender people is lessened because the person in question is passing as the gender they claim is true to who they are?

i know that personally when i see someone like Kalvin Garrah, or Mack Beggs my first instinct towards them is boys. i did a brief google search for Transmen and the vast majority of them just looked like normal dudes to me. Most, if not all of them, I would think were guys in general until told that there were trans.

Maybe? I do think there is probably less Uncanny Valley for them on average, when talking about social perception of them. So yeah it's easier for them to fly under the radar, if they don't draw attention to it? *shrugs*

Meanwhile you have giant slabs of beef like Laurell Hubbard who doesn't even bother to shave her fucking hugely hairy manpits, nor have I ever seen any picture of them with make-up or clothing that would make them appear as they truly feel like a woman. To me, and I'm sorry I know this is probably wrong, to me it looks to me like a guy who was a shitty powerlifter as a man had decided to become a women because they felt like they could win easier if they competed with women. So desperate they were for some glory that they transitioned (in the bare minimum way possible) in order to grasp that glory. That is what I think when I see Laurell. Like i said I know that is probably wrong, but perception and optics are important things.

I mean you're asking a cis het dude on a gaming forum for specific medical information regarding hormonal transitions, so I don't know why you expect anything terribly exact but, sure I'll take a swing! I would assume that it's possibly a slower transition biologically from male to female? Also depending on how long they've been medically transitioning can have a significant impact on that. Because there are plenty of documented, often on social media, of trans women, who have shown a very clear, and profound transformation, over time. So it's not like it's impossible. As to them not wearing "girly clothes" well, my cis het wife hardly wears anything other than sweatpants and a baggy shirt, because she doesn't give two shits about fashion. And I tease her about her little micro-beard she's developed as she's hit middle age, and don't even get me started on shaving. Her legs are usually as hairy as mine, because she fucking hates shaving. She's still very much female so, I don't really see some of those criticisms as being at all relevant, or unique to either male or female.

That's kind of the whole point about all this stuff though. A lot of the things we attribute to male or female, aren't really unique to those genders, which implies the state of gender is more blurry and fluid than most of us think. Effeminate men have been a thing forever, irrespective of sexual orientation. Butch womean have been a thing forever, also irrespective of sexual orientation. We've just put a binary stamp on these things because we didn't have the ability and technology to more accurately understand the various shades of grey when it comes to biology, although we've known of gender variants for centuries.

As for transwomen, honestly the only two people I've ever see as transwomen that made me double take were Caitlyn Jenner (who if I didn't know Bruce beforehand i would have never guess tbh) and Blair White. I watched a shitload of Blair's videos before she said she was trans and it blew my fucking mind. Oh and the transwoman who won Ms. Nevada recently Kataluna Enriquez, who is like really hot wow.

*shrugs* I've seen plenty of transwomen that appear perfectly normal to me. Again, it might depend entirely on WHEN in their transition you are seeing them. It's not an overnight thing.

Look at other famous trans incidents and people and it just doesn't look like anything more than a dude in girls clothing. For example the Gamestop raging "IT"S MA'AM" Person. I mean for fucks sake, deep ass voice, very male aggressive behavior. So if i had to take a guess, it's this kind of thing that makes it harder or even impossible for people to accept.

Well of course the really out of spec incidents would stand out. That's the very nature of standing out. But, if the people who have transitioned are not drawing attention to it, how would you know? For all you know you've encountered plenty of trans people, who look perfectly normal, and just simply didn't bring any attention to it.

Also I've seen WAY too many aggressive women throw down to instantly attribute that to men alone. I've rarely seen men have to be dragged off each other due to an argument. I've seen it at least a dozen times with a pair women who just were not going to be happy until the other was bleeding and blind.

*shrugs*

 

[Baffle]

Do you think there aren't plenty of men who don't consider trans men to be men?

I think it's less the case because of the framing of the discussion being around threat.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Oh, OK! So what you're saying is, you're fine with the police monitoring thoughts, then??

No, where did you get that idea from?

See how easy that was? Also the second bit there was more asking if you just pulled that out of your rear as something to put forward or if there was any other reason to it?

Quantified how?

Because at present, that definition is so loose it could apply to almost anyone.

So is the definition of abuse lol

...and the various things you were condemning which were not abusive or libelous.

Except they were due to making claims about a persons actions. Plenty of things can be tried under defamation law if the intent behind the claims was malicious and done out of desire to harm a persons reputation or harm them personally or financially. (See the number of times Ian Hislop has ended up in court over what were jokes published in Private Eye)

 

[Baffle]

Meanwhile you have giant slabs of beef like Laurell Hubbard who doesn't even bother to shave her fucking hugely hairy manpits, nor have I ever seen any picture of them with make-up or clothing that would make them appear as they truly feel like a woman.

Many cis women also do not shave their man pits. You're falling into the trap of modern aesthetics. Women and men have body hair; why should only women shave it? It's jarring because it's a societal norm, that's all. Sure, if women want to shave all over, have at it, and men too. But it's an artificial distinction.

 

[CriticalGaming]

That's kind of the whole point about all this stuff though. A lot of the things we attribute to male or female, aren't really unique to those genders, which implies the state of gender is more blurry and fluid than most of us think. Effeminate men have been a thing forever, irrespective of sexual orientation. Butch womean have been a thing forever, also irrespective of sexual orientation. We've just put a binary stamp on these things because we didn't have the ability and technology to more accurately understand the various shades of grey when it comes to biology, although we've known of gender variants for centuries.

Well sure, but isn't the whole point of transition is to live as the gender you feel? There are things that both genders do simply because of socitial expectations of the gender, but that also is what makes men men and women women in a lot of ways. If your gender doesn't matter because it's just socially constructed, then why does anyone feel the need to be trans, if changing genders in a hormonal biological way doesn't really matter?

Fact is, there is biological differences. And if a person wants to biologically transition, then find but in so doing isn't there also some desire to live life as the other sex? Which means also fitting into society as that new sex. While society has a large influence on the "standards" of each gender, it doesn't negate the fact that there are standards. And to top things off, transgender folk often just want to be accepted and fit in, to which I would say that part of blending in would be to LOOK the part. Isn't that a fair ask.

Otherwise you are a dude in a dress which is always going to seem strange to people. And if strange is your goal, then live your life boo. But if the goal is to fit into the world as the gender you feel you truly are, then you gotta make the effort to put your best foot forward. Isn't that a reasonable expectation? Stand out from the crowd if you want, but don't complain that nobody likes it.

For all you know you've encountered plenty of trans people, who look perfectly normal, and just simply didn't bring any attention to it.

That might be the case, and good for them. How come they are never the ones advocating about trans issues and rights though? The spoke person is always someone who is very very very obvious about what they are. It's almost like the people who put in the effort, find no issue with finding a happy place in the world, and the people who stand out deliberately scream about discrimination and bullshit.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Many cis women also do not shave their man pits. You're falling into the trap of modern aesthetics. Women and men have body hair; why should only women shave it? It's jarring because it's a societal norm, that's all. Sure, if women want to shave all over, have at it, and men too. But it's an artificial distinction.

See the post i made above. But quite frankly societal expectations are still expectations. And because people in general have expectations based on cleanliness, and attractiveness. Therefore while it might be natural for women to grow the shit out of their pits, you'll find most women don't do that because they want to be attractive.

Not doing it is fine. But people notice and people don't like it, so it becomes part of your image. Which if standing out is what you want fine, but don't complain that people treat you differently based on your decisions to not groom yourself.

 

[happyninja42]

I think it's less the case because of the framing of the discussion being around threat.

Yeah I don't think trans men trigger their "gay panic" response as much. Because they likely started the interaction with the mental tag of "this is a dude, not someone I want to fuck." So hearing "oh it's a woman" (in their head at least) would likely just change their label to "ugly chick I didn't want to fuck anyway" So it's not a real problem. They don't have any internal panic about homophobia in that situation.

But a transwoman, if they were thinking things like "Damn she's hot, I'd like to bend her over and bang her. Or have her blow me." And then learn "oh shit, it's a dude!! I'm a fag!!" Well then their lizard brain fight response kicks in. And thus the increased risk of violence. Because depending on when they grew up, and where they grew up, the amount of ingrained cultural stigma about homosexuality, can be really insane. I've never had a problem with anyone in the LGBTQ spectrum, even growing up. But even as a cis het dude, in highschool, when I was accused of being gay by a bully, it gave me a panic attack. Not for fear of somehow turning gay, but because I knew it would make me a social pariah. As it would turn the rest of the student body against me. Why? *shrugs* Because being gay was a weakness back in the 90s, still is to some people. And it became a running insult with that bully, for my entire highschool time. Every time I'd see him in the halls, he and little gang would toss "******" slurs at me, and laugh, and others in earshot would also snicker and laugh. And no amount of "I'm not gay" would change their minds. And I had the security of being a fairly tall, physically fit, with some combat training guy, so I wasn't ever worried about someone attacking me as a result of that. But someone else, in a situation of possible sexual tension, and some miscommunication? Yeah, I can easily see it becoming violent, if it was some of the dudes I went to highschool with. It would be reflexive for them, a defense mechanism.

So yes, the threat part, totally makes sense to me.

 

[happyninja42]

Well sure, but isn't the whole point of transition is to live as the gender you feel? There are things that both genders do simply because of socitial expectations of the gender, but that also is what makes men men and women women in a lot of ways. If your gender doesn't matter because it's just socially constructed, then why does anyone feel the need to be trans, if changing genders in a hormonal biological way doesn't really matter?

Fact is, there is biological differences.

Except the examples of the "differences" that you cited, aren't actually unique to either gender, and never have been.. So they are terrible examples to try and plead your very bad case.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

I think it's less the case because of the framing of the discussion being around threat.

Has any-one considered guys don't care that much because I'm sure every guy has had at one point a woman dash into the gents bathroom and say something like "I'm sorry I'm desperate and there's a big queue at the ladies" so a trans man coming into the gents? It's yeh whatever just know we have less stalls to use and some of the toilets in those stalls might not have seats because gents bathrooms generally don't see that much upkeep for the stalls as they're seen as less important.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Many cis women also do not shave their man pits. You're falling into the trap of modern aesthetics. Women and men have body hair; why should only women shave it? It's jarring because it's a societal norm, that's all. Sure, if women want to shave all over, have at it, and men too. But it's an artificial distinction.

Ah yes normal biology vs societal expectations, this old conversation again. I think it's dumb. Just because something is natural doesn't mean people have to like it. E.G. there's a reason a lot of guys pull out or trim their nose hair.

 

[Agema]

I think it's less the case because of the framing of the discussion being around threat.

I presume you mean threat to women from men, but I can't help but feel that the real, underlying perceived threat to some women is to their sense of identity as women, partly (and hence why associated with elements of feminism, particularly maybe older ones) due to how they have struggled to build up female identity within society across the decades. That at core is because women have traditionally been looked down upon relative to men.

I suspect from this gender disparity that maybe trans men feel in ways quite empowered by their transition. They are maybe less "visible" and more secure and can merge into the male gender with fewer questions asked and efforts needed. Trans women on the other hand might feel they are taking on vulnerability; facing scrutiny (as women do) and challenges to societal acceptance in a way trans men may not face to the same extent.

 

[Baffle]

See the post i made above. But quite frankly societal expectations are still expectations. And because people in general have expectations based on cleanliness, and attractiveness.

I'm on a phone so my response might get mashed, but are you saying than unshaven women are unhygienic but unshaven men aren't?

 

[Baffle]

Ah yes normal biology vs societal expectations, this old conversation again. I think it's dumb. Just because something is natural doesn't mean people have to like it. E.G. there's a reason a lot of guys pull out or trim their nose hair.

I mean, I think you're dumb so let's not worry too much about dumbness or it could get unnecessarily personal.

 

[Baffle]

I presume you mean threat to women from men, but I can't help but feel that the real, underlying perceived threat to some women is to their sense of identity as women, partly (and hence why associated with elements of feminism, particularly maybe older ones) due to how they have struggled to build up female identity within society across the decades. That at core is because women have traditionally been looked down upon relative to men.

I did mean in the former sense because so often the argument seems to be framed around changing room situations (for example). I mean, what real threat is there to the identity of cis women from the extremely small numbers of trans women?

 

[Silvanus]

No, where did you get that idea from?

And I'm supposed to accept that? Like you immediately accepted it when I confirmed that I never condoned abuse & harassment?

So is the definition of abuse lol

...That's correct, yes. What's your point?

Except they were due to making claims about a persons actions. Plenty of things can be tried under defamation law if the intent behind the claims was malicious and done out of desire to harm a persons reputation or harm them personally or financially. (See the number of times Ian Hislop has ended up in court over what were jokes published in Private Eye)

Then please, feel free to litigate. Taking that to any court in the Western world would be absolutely laughed out of the room. It's legal illiteracy.

(And I continue to find it hilarious that the defender of "free speech" is here advocating a world in which it is against the law to call something "harmful" online).

 

[Terminal Blue]

Trans men just seem to be statistically less common?

Historically, yes, but increasingly not.

Historically, transfemmes have always gotten overwhelmingly more media attention, and it's only very recently that transmascs have become socially visible at all, and this has meant a lot of people recognizing themselves as transmasc and feeling able to come out. Among younger trans people, the numbers are pretty similar, and that kind of shapes the whole controversy and "debate" around them. It's much more of a "think of the children" controversy, in which the evil trans cult is brainwashing innocent girls into becoming men because they like football or some shit.

Do transmen face less stigma because they "pass" as men better?

I think that's a stereotype.

Transfemmes are routinely stereotyped as butch and messy, but the reality as that most transfemme celebrities are absolutely unclockable unless they don't want to be (we'll get to that). There are certain things which I think make the journey to "passing" as a transfemme harder, unless you were fortunate enough to be put on puberty blockers, but the reality is that almost every trans person goes through a period of being socially transitioned and not passing, and for most people getting through that stage will take several years.

It's more true to say that transfemmes tend to be picked apart and judged far more harshly on their appearance, because that is part of the humilating and offensive stereotype that tranfemmes have to live with. Non-passing transmascs do not get the same treatment, they get insulted and invalidated in other ways, but seldom do you see the appearance of transmascs get dissected and picked apart in the way transfemmes do.

Then there's the question of whether a person actually wants to pass. There are gender non-conforming trans people of all genders, and you'll notice that I keep saying "femmes" rather than "women". That's because not all people who dress or socially position themselves as women consider themselves to be women. If you think someone isn't "passing", you probably shouldn't assume that they actually want to.

I would assume that it's possibly a slower transition biologically from male to female?

I don't think that's necessarily true.

I think you could make the argument that hormones can do a lot more of the work for transmascs, without the need for specific surgeries, treatments or therapies, but even then, think of how long it takes a cis man to go through puberty. We're still talking several years. I've actually watched this play out with a friend, and while he's gone through a pretty amazing transformation, it's been a long one, and even now he doesn't "pass" as a gender conforming man (although he's not a gender conforming man, so I don't think that's a problem for him).

That might be the case, and good for them. How come they are never the ones advocating about trans issues and rights though?

I mean, they are.

Like, one of the people who has done the most work in trans advocacy in recent years is Laverne Cox. She's spoken very openly about suffering discrimination and hate-crime, and yet she is flawless. At the end of the day though, it's not a performance for your benefit. It's not a performance at all. The fact that you would ever have the audacity to think that anyone who has slightest obligation to care about whether or not they pass to you is ridiculous, it means less than nothing, and the fact you've got through life without realising that just shows how much being cis has rotted your sense of perspective.

See, that's discrimination. Imagine if the rest of us got to go through life being as entitled and oversensitive as a cishet man.