Tiny, insignificant details in games that really bother you

[Dalisclock]

Shoehorning the Zelda franchise into a timeline at all, much less a branching meta verse, was a massive narrative mistake. I know they wanted Skyward Sword to be The Beginning, but the way Ninty went about it only made the franchise crystallized and stagnant.

I mean, on one hand, it makes Hyrule feel incredibly ancient considering most games are separated by vast gulfs of time that previous adventures have faded into myth and legend, but on the other hand, very little actually changes in hyrule and the whole land often feels locked into medieval stasis. I mean, Skyward sword even has the whole time travel thing in it which means there are time periods more ancient then it which have yet to be explored, and BOTW has a whole 10,000 year gap in between it and when the Divine Beasts and Shrines were created which apparently have no other Zelda games happening in them.

I guess when the games are developed around gameplay first and story 2nd and there are a bunch of them this eventually becomes inevitable that trying to slot them all into a timeline becomes an exercise in frustration.

 

[Gyrobot]

For crime sandboxes, no achievements for killing sprees and rampages on regular peds, the game tallies your count on hostile targets but because of politicians, game devs can't get away with achievements for rampages.


The games will still tally hostile targets killed but not regular people

It's also why Hateed was so different because targeting innocent people is the goal

 

[immortalfrieza]

I mean, on one hand, it makes Hyrule feel incredibly ancient considering most games are separated by vast gulfs of time that previous adventures have faded into myth and legend, but on the other hand, very little actually changes in hyrule and the whole land often feels locked into medieval stasis. I mean, Skyward sword even has the whole time travel thing in it which means there are time periods more ancient then it which have yet to be explored, and BOTW has a whole 10,000 year gap in between it and when the Divine Beasts and Shrines were created which apparently have no other Zelda games happening in them.

I guess when the games are developed around gameplay first and story 2nd and there are a bunch of them this eventually becomes inevitable that trying to slot them all into a timeline becomes an exercise in frustration.

A lot of fiction is like this though. The setting is medieval knights with bows and arrows and then there's a sequel 1000 years in the future and... everything is still medieval knights. At most maybe someone will have developed crossbows in the interim. Star Wars is really bad about this, given that everything is functionally identical throughout all but it's most ancient history some 20,000 years before as it is in the Original Trilogy. In fact, the technology seems to regress in some areas, like how even the cheapest battle droids in Revan's time would massively outdo all but the best battle droid in the Clone Wars era.

Zelda is a bit more... nonsensical in it's tech level. There's games where they'd got steam power, ancient robots, dungeons that are like clock towers or whatever... and games where they have none of these things. They seem to lose advances and gain them then lose them again at seemingly random. And no matter what tech level it is, all of them are completely vulnerable to a guy with a sword or at least some tools that were lying around nearby.

I get the impression that BOTW is intended to be where the constant battles with Ganon and Link finally come to an end... at least until they decide otherwise. They should do game with a Time Crash plot where all the various timelines start merging together somehow, probably Ganon's fault, to create the BOTW timeline.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

A lot of fiction is like this though. The setting is medieval knights with bows and arrows and then there's a sequel 1000 years in the future and... everything is still medieval knights. At most maybe someone will have developed crossbows in the interim. Star Wars is really bad about this, given that everything is functionally identical throughout all but it's most ancient history some 20,000 years before as it is in the Original Trilogy. In fact, the technology seems to regress in some areas, like how even the cheapest battle droids in Revan's time would massively outdo all but the best battle droid in the Clone Wars era.

Zelda is a bit more... nonsensical in it's tech level. There's games where they'd got steam power, ancient robots, dungeons that are like clock towers or whatever... and games where they have none of these things. They seem to lose advances and gain them then lose them again at seemingly random. And no matter what tech level it is, all of them are completely vulnerable to a guy with a sword or at least some tools that were lying around nearby.

I get the impression that BOTW is intended to be where the constant battles with Ganon and Link finally come to an end... at least until they decide otherwise. They should do game with a Time Crash plot where all the various timelines start merging together somehow, probably Ganon's fault, to create the BOTW timeline.

BoTW happens directly after Hyrule Warriors confirmed

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Samurai is one of the very many Final Fantasy 14 classes and the player character has a very classic sword pose. I actually love the little details: how you run with the blade unsheathed, how you adjust your grip after drawing, etc...

But the old man teaching you how the samurai has a completely different sword stance.

 

[Chimpzy]

Not a game and perhaps not so insignificant, but eh, Nintendo, why is the RGB setting for tv output of the Switch by default set to limited instead of full range?

 

[Drathnoxis]

Shoehorning the Zelda franchise into a timeline at all, much less a branching meta verse, was a massive narrative mistake. I know they wanted Skyward Sword to be The Beginning, but the way Ninty went about it only made the franchise crystallized and stagnant.

I agree, the games weren't written with any sort of connection at all, forcing a timeline retroactively will never succeed and can only be a detriment to the quality of the writing. Also SS can't be the beginning because Link has his hat and Minish Cap was supposed to be the hat origin, so they can't even do that right, illustrating half the problems right there.

 

[Dalisclock]

I agree, the games weren't written with any sort of connection at all, forcing a timeline retroactively will never succeed and can only be a detriment to the quality of the writing. Also SS can't be the beginning because Link has his hat and Minish Cap was supposed to be the hat origin, so they can't even do that right, illustrating half the problems right there.

Well, that and whole time portal in SS that goes back even further which feels like it undermines the origin story thing a tad.

This is the most ancient era but there's an even more most ancient era.

But yeah the timeline is a bit screwy, no matter how you slice it

 

[Specter Von Baren]

A lot of fiction is like this though. The setting is medieval knights with bows and arrows and then there's a sequel 1000 years in the future and... everything is still medieval knights. At most maybe someone will have developed crossbows in the interim. Star Wars is really bad about this, given that everything is functionally identical throughout all but it's most ancient history some 20,000 years before as it is in the Original Trilogy. In fact, the technology seems to regress in some areas, like how even the cheapest battle droids in Revan's time would massively outdo all but the best battle droid in the Clone Wars era.

Zelda is a bit more... nonsensical in it's tech level. There's games where they'd got steam power, ancient robots, dungeons that are like clock towers or whatever... and games where they have none of these things. They seem to lose advances and gain them then lose them again at seemingly random. And no matter what tech level it is, all of them are completely vulnerable to a guy with a sword or at least some tools that were lying around nearby.

I get the impression that BOTW is intended to be where the constant battles with Ganon and Link finally come to an end... at least until they decide otherwise. They should do game with a Time Crash plot where all the various timelines start merging together somehow, probably Ganon's fault, to create the BOTW timeline.

In fairness, technological advancement isn't just a continuous line going up and we currently live in a time period of abnormally fast and wide spread technological development. For most of human history our technology didn't progress anywhere near as much.

Further, technological backsliding is also something we've experienced before, particularly after devestating wars and disasters which are something that has happened numerous times in the Zelda universe.

 

[Dalisclock]

In fairness, technological advancement isn't just a continuous line going up and we currently live in a time period of abnormally fast and wide spread technological development. For most of human history our technology didn't progress anywhere near as much.

Further, technological backsliding is also something we've experienced before, particularly after devestating wars and disasters which are something that has happened numerous times in the Zelda universe.

It's hard to argue that occasionally having a giant demon pig respawn and kick the worlds shit in doesn't cause progress to stagnant a bit.

 

[Asita]

This arguably goes a bit beyond "tiny and insignificant", but still: Aloy's social acumen in Horizon Zero Dawn. This is a character who literally nobody but her adoptive father was allowed to interact with for literally her entire life, but when the game proper starts she's warm, empathetic, charismatic, witty, and both psychologically and socially perceptive. Hell, a good chunk of the investigations she performs owe their success as much to her understanding of human nature as they do her Focus's ability to highlight important clues. It's easy to miss, but if you stop to think on her backstory, her social skills feel...out of place.

Eg, I just finished the Sun and Shadow sidequest, wherein we see one of the characters grieving and say she isn't okay, but "will be". Without missing a beat Aloy immediately picks up on the suicidal subtext, talks her out of it, and wastes no time in telling the girl's father that he urgently needs to listen to and support his daughter. Picking up on that subtext and helping someone who is suicidal is a deceptively tall order at the best of times, but it should be completely outside of the skillset of someone who literally hadn't so much as had a conversation with anyone but her father (and later, that one merchant) until she turned 18.

It's really weird to me when the devs say that - and I quote - "because she grew up as an outcast, Aloy's someone who really hasn't ever learned all the tricks of the social world", as her writing really doesn't seem to reflect that. This is someone who catches suicidal and romantic undertones and expertly navigates them, has the sense to ask about who might have had motive for a crime and pieces together interpersonal implications that escaped eyewitnesses, puts a few people in their place by outmaneuvering them conversationally, and psychoanalyzes the guy flirting with her, calling it out as a coping mechanism as Aloy reminds him of his recently deceased lover. For someone who "hasn't ever learned all the tricks of the social world", she is remarkably good at navigating them.

Now, let me be clear, I like HZD, and I like a character that can do that. I love playing the party face. It just bugs me that in this case it feels at odds with her backstory, which is quite explicit in how she had no socialization. I think the worst part is that in hindsight they actually supplied the perfect 'out' with the Foci's communication capabilities. Give her one or two 'online' friends to talk to and share thoughts with as she grew up and it becomes a lot less weird.

 

[Dalisclock]

This arguably goes a bit beyond "tiny and insignificant", but still: Aloy's social acumen in Horizon Zero Dawn. This is a character who literally nobody but her adoptive father was allowed to interact with for literally her entire life, but when the game proper starts she's warm, empathetic, charismatic, witty, and both psychologically and socially perceptive. Hell, a good chunk of the investigations she performs owe their success as much to her understanding of human nature as they do her Focus's ability to highlight important clues. It's easy to miss, but if you stop to think on her backstory, her social skills feel...out of place.

Eg, I just finished the Sun and Shadow sidequest, wherein we see one of the characters grieving and say she isn't okay, but "will be". Without missing a beat Aloy immediately picks up on the suicidal subtext, talks her out of it, and wastes no time in telling the girl's father that he urgently needs to listen to and support his daughter. Picking up on that subtext and helping someone who is suicidal is a deceptively tall order at the best of times, but it should be completely outside of the skillset of someone who literally hadn't so much as had a conversation with anyone but her father (and later, that one merchant) until she turned 18.

It's really weird to me when the devs say that - and I quote - "because she grew up as an outcast, Aloy's someone who really hasn't ever learned all the tricks of the social world", as her writing really doesn't seem to reflect that. This is someone who catches suicidal and romantic undertones and expertly navigates them, has the sense to ask about who might have had motive for a crime and pieces together interpersonal implications that escaped eyewitnesses, puts a few people in their place by outmaneuvering them conversationally, and psychoanalyzes the guy flirting with her, calling it out as a coping mechanism as Aloy reminds him of his recently deceased lover. For someone who "hasn't ever learned all the tricks of the social world", she is remarkably good at navigating them.

Now, let me be clear, I like HZD, and I like a character that can do that. I love playing the party face. It just bugs me that in this case it feels at odds with her backstory, which is quite explicit in how she had no socialization. I think the worst part is that in hindsight they actually supplied the perfect 'out' with the Foci's communication capabilities. Give her one or two 'online' friends to talk to and share thoughts with as she grew up and it becomes a lot less weird.

I know why it happened but I totally agree with you here. They wanted aloy to be likable and such, which generally translates to being able to pick up on social cues and or being sociable at least in pop culture(because introverts are weirdos who can't relate to anyone ya know). Unfortunately, as you pointed out, that directly conflicts with her character as we were shown and makes me suspect the writers didn't know how to resolve that conflict(likely), were unaware of it(unlikely) or originally planned to make her less adept to picking up on social cues but someone higher up the corpo food change forced them to change it(possible but I've got no evidence that's true). It is kind of a shame though.

 

[NerfedFalcon]

Speaking of Zelda, Twilight Princess HD on the Wii U is mostly a pretty great port of the Gamecube/Wii original, but the text scroll speed was changed. While that doesn't sound like a big deal, it messes with the lip sync a little bit, as characters continue moving their mouths after text stops appearing, when they don't in the original. And much more noticeably, it also messes with Midna's speech - she can't finish her sentences before the text does, and the clips she does manage to get out sound a lot more disjointed than they do in the originals.

 

[Casual Shinji]

This arguably goes a bit beyond "tiny and insignificant", but still: Aloy's social acumen in Horizon Zero Dawn. This is a character who literally nobody but her adoptive father was allowed to interact with for literally her entire life, but when the game proper starts she's warm, empathetic, charismatic, witty, and both psychologically and socially perceptive. Hell, a good chunk of the investigations she performs owe their success as much to her understanding of human nature as they do her Focus's ability to highlight important clues. It's easy to miss, but if you stop to think on her backstory, her social skills feel...out of place.

Eg, I just finished the Sun and Shadow sidequest, wherein we see one of the characters grieving and say she isn't okay, but "will be". Without missing a beat Aloy immediately picks up on the suicidal subtext, talks her out of it, and wastes no time in telling the girl's father that he urgently needs to listen to and support his daughter. Picking up on that subtext and helping someone who is suicidal is a deceptively tall order at the best of times, but it should be completely outside of the skillset of someone who literally hadn't so much as had a conversation with anyone but her father (and later, that one merchant) until she turned 18.

It's really weird to me when the devs say that - and I quote - "because she grew up as an outcast, Aloy's someone who really hasn't ever learned all the tricks of the social world", as her writing really doesn't seem to reflect that. This is someone who catches suicidal and romantic undertones and expertly navigates them, has the sense to ask about who might have had motive for a crime and pieces together interpersonal implications that escaped eyewitnesses, puts a few people in their place by outmaneuvering them conversationally, and psychoanalyzes the guy flirting with her, calling it out as a coping mechanism as Aloy reminds him of his recently deceased lover. For someone who "hasn't ever learned all the tricks of the social world", she is remarkably good at navigating them.

Now, let me be clear, I like HZD, and I like a character that can do that. I love playing the party face. It just bugs me that in this case it feels at odds with her backstory, which is quite explicit in how she had no socialization. I think the worst part is that in hindsight they actually supplied the perfect 'out' with the Foci's communication capabilities. Give her one or two 'online' friends to talk to and share thoughts with as she grew up and it becomes a lot less weird.

This extends to her also being super against Nora law eventhough the only person who would actually talk to and teach her was a fervent follower of this law. There's not even a smidge of her going against what she knows is wrong to abide by Nora law.

I get that the developers were scared of presenting the player with a character that was kind of a bigot and a zealot, but I think there was a happy medium here that they chose to ignore entirely. They could've started us out with a character that was scared of going against what she was taught, but still felt she needed to do the right thing. That way we could've seen some growth from this character instead of really none at all.

And to add something else that doesn't really make any sense; the fact that there's very clearly white, black, and asian people in the Nora tribe. This is a tribe that is very closed off and that I don't think allows outsiders to settle in, and yet after certainly a couple of hundred years they still haven't intermingled at all. For Meridian it makes total sense that there's a lot of diversity, since it's this big trading hub, but for the Nora it really doesn't.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

This extends to her also being super against Nora law eventhough the only person who would actually talk to and teach her was a fervent follower of this law. There's not even a smidge of her going against what she knows is wrong to abide by Nora law.

I get that the developers were scared of presenting the player with a character that was kind of a bigot and a zealot, but I think there was a happy medium here that they chose to ignore entirely. They could've started us out with a character that was scared of going against what she was taught, but still felt she needed to do the right thing. That way we could've seen some growth from this character instead of really none at all.

And to add something else that doesn't really make any sense; the fact that there's very clearly white, black, and asian people in the Nora tribe. This is a tribe that is very closed off and that I don't think allows outsiders to settle in, and yet after certainly a couple of hundred years they still haven't intermingled at all. For Meridian it makes total sense that there's a lot of diversity, since it's this big trading hub, but for the Nora it really doesn't.

There seems to be an aversion to having characters grow and change, keeping past mistakes and learning from them, as apposed to having them arrive fully formed or rewriting them that way.

And I guess I understand why, at least with main characters. An example is the first Ratchet and Clank where Ratchet starts off as someone that really doesn't want to be involved but by the end becomes someone that does actually want to help people which then continues for the rest of the series. But in the first game it can be rough if he grates on you and that kind of thing can turn people off of playing a game.

This kind of thing is so much easier with party RPGs since an ensemble cast let's you diversify the characters.

 

[BrawlMan]

But in the first game it can be rough if he grates on you and that kind of thing can turn people off of playing a game.

Most fans like the early characterization of Ratchet. He showed actual growth & progression, without coming off as obnoxious. The later games during the PS3 and PS4 era, have the problem of trying to soften him too much and copy Pixar. The early games especially gave Ratchet & Clank a certain type of edge without going overboard.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Most fans like the early characterization of Ratchet. He showed actual growth in care to regression, without coming off as obnoxious. The later games during the PS3 and PS4 era, have the problem of trying to soften too much and copy Pixar. The early games especially gave Ratchet & Clank a certain type of edge without going overboard.

And I'm one of them. But I'm also aware that there are people that didn't like it so it does become a consideration for developers.

 

[Casual Shinji]

There seems to be an aversion to having characters grow and change, keeping past mistakes and learning from them, as apposed to having them arrive fully formed or rewriting them that way.

And I guess I understand why, at least with main characters. An example is the first Ratchet and Clank where Ratchet starts off as someone that really doesn't want to be involved but by the end becomes someone that does actually want to help people which then continues for the rest of the series. But in the first game it can be rough if he grates on you and that kind of thing can turn people off of playing a game.

This kind of thing is so much easier with party RPGs since an ensemble cast let's you diversify the characters.

Funny you should mention party RPGs, because Aloy kinda feels like a Bioware main character; she's Miss Awesome who gets the job done and is then on her way to the next problem to be solved. And if she was just a mysterious stranger that walked in on these lands I think her character would've worked fine.

Most fans like the early characterization of Ratchet. He showed actual growth in care to regression, without coming off as obnoxious. The later games during the PS3 and PS4 era, have the problem of trying to soften too much and copy Pixar. The early games especially gave Ratchet & Clank a certain type of edge without going overboard.

It's the problem of AAA games taking themselves too seriously. Ratchet and Clank used to be goofball antics in a wacky space setting, now it has to have... ugh, lore.

 

[BrawlMan]

And I'm one of them. But I'm also aware that there are people that didn't like it so it does become a consideration for developers.

Honestly, the people that didn't like early Ratchet, sound like a vocal minority at best. Even non-fans and most casual fans, didn't have a problem with early Ratchet.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

I guess this kind of does and doesn't count for this thread but I don't have another good place to bring it up.

Why are all the Kingdom Hearts ports coming for Switch, cloud versions? I understand why 3 would but surely KH1 and the DS and PSP games are capable of being played on the Switch without needing to be online?