Ukraine

Silvanus

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Russian leaders have been complaining about NATO expansion for over twenty years and seemed perfectly happy with Ukraine under Yanukovych. But after a culturally divisive change in government that had US fingerprints on it put NATO membership for Ukraine on the table, everything went to shit.
Imagine respecting sovereignty so little that you believe smaller countries' foreign policy should be decided by the interests of larger neighbours rather than themselves.

Still laser-focused on anyone except the actual invaders, I see, even as they propell rockets into residential districts.
 
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Thaluikhain

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Imagine respecting sovereignty so little that you believe smaller countries' foreign policy should be decided by the interests of larger neighbours rather than themselves.

Still laser-focused on anyone except the actual invaders, I see, even as they propell rockets into residential districts.
On a not totally unrelated note, hypothetically, if Israel renounced its ties with the US and opposed US imperialism, and the Palestinians got at least nominal US support, I wonder if people's opinions would change. :unsure:
 
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meiam

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So apparently Putin is calling on Ukraine military to overthrow their own government... what?

He also started saying that Finland and Sweden shouldn't join NATO, which if I was in them I would apply to NATO today.

Ukraine still seem to be in control of most settlement, but Russia has something like 200 000 soldier deployed and seem to have been hoping for a quick war so might not have been going all out.
 
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XsjadoBlayde

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Am no expert in this to be able to say anything whatsoever, so the least worst can do is share fave Ukrainian correspondent Olexandr's words and stuff to hopefully provide even the tiniest bit of further context.




 
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Silvanus

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He also started saying that Finland and Sweden shouldn't join NATO, which if I was in them I would apply to NATO today.
The last few weeks have given the clearest reason yet for Eastern Europeans to join NATO. Because the only other global power-player in the region doesn't respect its own legal commitments, and has no qualms whatsoever in invading, annexing, and slaughtering them. The only functional defence is in collective security.

I mean, 2014 should have been warning enough.
 
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bluegate

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After three decades of the world sort of warming up to Russia, they have found a good way to place themselves firmly on the shit side of the scale for the entire world.

***


At the moment, the only good Russian on Ukrainian ground is a dead Russian.
 
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MrCalavera

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Huh, interesting.
That sounds far fetched. It would do nothing for the domestic propaganda; those soldiers would still be missing and assumed dead.
It would also hardly convince anyone in the west, which is more likely to trust ukrainian reports.
Pointless waste of logistics.
Disbanding NATO without disbanding the US military is perfectly realistic, not meaningless, and probably just as effective at preventing the war in Ukraine if not moreso. But going further to disband the US military is just the right thing to do.
Disbanding NATO atm is very much not realistic. If the alliance had troubles before, this invasion bought it 20-30 years at least.
Oh my God! Can we please talk about this without it being yet another debate about America?!
We can replace "America" with a safe word.
 
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Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

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Germany finally seems to be open with kicking Russia out of SWIFT, still has not done it yet but this is good.

China is even starting to sanction Russia, it small but this is huge because china is a major bloodline. China seems like they were on Russia's side of not sanctioning them but it seems like something happen between China and Russia and I don't care what, this is great news.
 

Agema

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China is even starting to sanction Russia, it small but this is huge because china is a major bloodline. China seems like they were on Russia's side of not sanctioning them but it seems like something happen between China and Russia and I don't care what, this is great news.
Honestly, I am inclined to believe that China knew Russia was going to invade Ukraine, and effectively okayed it - I do not think Russia would endanger its relations with China at the same time that it annihilated its relations with the West, otherwise it really would be cut off.

What I think China will probably do is some very small scale sanctions that mean approximately nothing, but give it some plausibility to pretend it's a peace-loving and respectable member of the international community.
 

Hades

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He also started saying that Finland and Sweden shouldn't join NATO, which if I was in them I would apply to NATO today.
Russia has essentially two non compatible arguments.
''If you're not in NATO we're going to try and subjugate you and invade if your resist''
''If you're in NATO we're also going to invade and subjugate you''

So either outcome means Russia feels its entitled to dominate their neighbors.
 
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Thaluikhain

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Russia has essentially two non compatible arguments.
''If you're not in NATO we're going to try and subjugate you and invade if your resist''
''If you're in NATO we're also going to invade and subjugate you''

So either outcome means Russia feels its entitled to dominate their neighbors.
Feels entitled to, perhaps, but can get away with attacking a NATO member like that is another thing.
 
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Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

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Maybe attempting to militarily capture a super radiated area is a bad idea.

Honestly, I am inclined to believe that China knew Russia was going to invade Ukraine, and effectively okayed it - I do not think Russia would endanger its relations with China at the same time that it annihilated its relations with the West, otherwise it really would be cut off.

What I think China will probably do is some very small scale sanctions that mean approximately nothing, but give it some plausibility to pretend it's a peace-loving and respectable member of the international community.
(put on tinfoil hat)
China knew Russia plan and was fine with soft backing it but 3 thinks happenned

1. They thought it would have been over by now but Ukraine is holding them off.
2. This has pissed of literally everyone but Russian puppets odd. This is a PR nightmare and the China people are not happy about this war. China's trying to do the (both sides) thing to not piss Russia off but it's hard to do that without seeming like an ally.
and 3. They had no idea how crazy Putin was, one particular move I think contributes is this is him stating that he wants to completely remove the Ukrainian government. this action may be too much for the Chinese government.
 

Seanchaidh

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Imagine respecting sovereignty so little that you believe smaller countries' foreign policy should be decided by the interests of larger neighbours rather than themselves.
imagine respecting smaller countries' so little that you believe they should be strung along with false promises such that they'll suffer a losing war on your behalf without any significant support. And the false promiser isn't at fault, so convenient!

Anyway, you don't have to like it. Those were the conditions. And it is hardly weird that an alliance and global hegemony that is explicitly hostile to a country is seen as provocative when it seeks to expand near that country.

Still laser-focused on anyone except the actual invaders, I see, even as they propell rockets into residential districts.
Is there a point somewhere in repeating your favored shibboleths?
 

Silvanus

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Anyway, you don't have to like it. Those were the conditions. And it is hardly weird that an alliance and global hegemony that is explicitly hostile to a country is seen as provocative when it seeks to expand near that country.
Indeed, "those were the conditions", and whether they're utterly unreasonable or coercive doesn't even factor into your equation. So in essence, you're defending the right of powers to issue whatever ultimatums they want on weaker countries, and then to respond with extreme force if they're not met. Then the blame rests with those who didn't just capitulate and surrender their sovereignty.

Is there a point somewhere in repeating your favored shibboleths?
Same as the point in repeating yours, as always!
 
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meiam

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Anyway, you don't have to like it. Those were the conditions. And it is hardly weird that an alliance and global hegemony that is explicitly hostile to a country is seen as provocative when it seeks to expand near that country.
Not expand, country ask to join NATO. That's not the alliance expanding, that's country freely deciding to join it, big difference. Russia is trying to expand by capturing Ukraine.
 

Avnger

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Not expand, country ask to join NATO. That's not the alliance expanding, that's country freely deciding to join it, big difference. Russia is trying to expand by capturing Ukraine.
Seanchaidh has been very clear that he doesn't believe in the sovereignty of or free determination for countries that act against his personal beliefs. If they choose to join NATO or join the EU or even just indicate a preference for the west in general, their rights and even citizens no longer matter; it's better for daddy Putin to step in and put those countries on the correct path regardless of who gets trampled in the process.

Pretty typical tankie stance on peoples' inherent rights, unfortunately.