Ukraine

[bluegate]

I wouldn't say that problem was giving Putin an excuse

I would say the problem is that any potential Oligarch coup has now been voided. Because they're sure as shit aren't going to follow some US senator.

Hence me commenting Graham has now made this a protracted war with very little ways to get out

"I could stop this ridiculous war, save my wealth and maybe even climb up the ladder of power by taking out Putin... But wait, some shit for brains American suggested that someone should take out Putin, so I'm going to be a recalcitrant petulant child and not do it".

Sorry, not buying that. If there's an oligarch with the balls to take out Putin, Graham's tweet won't have any bearing on it.

In lighter news; Russian soldiers keep attacking while people are trying to evacuate.

Why won't those people just let themselves be killed by Russia, why!

 

[Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)]

Trump's Wild Scheme: 'Bomb the Shit out of Russia' With U.S. F-22s Disguised as Chinese Planes

Trump told Republican donors that he wants to send American F-22 fighter jets painted with China's flag to bomb Russia.

www.rollingstone.com

I could slowly dissect this idiotic plan but I'm just going to say.

I am so glad that this guy is currently not president.

 

[Trunkage]

I mean making good offers that give exactly what they wanted (that part of it which was reasonable, anyway) in return for things we might want from them that are also very reasonable and within our right to ask. Because what the United States and friends were doing was plainly maneuvering to step on them.

So, you're saying we should have forced Ukraine to join Russia

 

[Generals]

Because traditionally Ireland has been militarily unaligned. We have defence forces that have gone on peace keeping missions but we do not get into conflicts. A lot of Irish people value our neutrality and don't want to join NATO. Others (me included) don't want to join NATO while a member occupies our country.

Well, it seems that opinions are shifting regarding neutrality in Ireland. A bit like how Russia has made NATO membership a lot more popular in Finland.
If a majority doesn't want to join NATO than it's unlikely Ireland will. But it's not like Russia isn't handing pro-NATO arguments in a platter.
I suppose you are referring to the UK and Northern Ireland? In which case; what about Ireland's EU membership ? I mean the UK was a member until quite recently...

As forthe EU, don't particularly have strong feelings about Ukraine becoming a member. Have an issue with it being fast tracked and I am always skeptical of the EU growing.

We have to be realistic here. "Fast tracked" is probably quite relative. I don't think there is any chance Ukraine could join the EU in its current state (even if Russia were to withdraw its troops). And this would probably also heavily strain the EU's relationship with Turkey.

It's using the war to spread red scare levels of propaganda against the opposition. Painting the opposition as aligned with Russia while the big strong government parties are the stalwart defenders of democracy. They want war and they want to make the opposition look sympathetic to Russia.

Isn't that just opportunistic pro-government propaganda? Just like using a pandemic to make some politicians look good/bad? The way I understand War propaganda is that it is trying to change people's mind on a conflict/war.

... That's not really a point though is it?

Not a point but a concluding remark.
This said, none of this actually proves Sean's claim which is based on this silly idea there is a "western media" to begin with. I am following the BBC a lot and I also read Belgian and French media. None of them gave the same vibe you are describing about Irish media and none of them fit the image Sean is trying to create about "Western Media".

 

[Seanchaidh]

So, you're saying we should have forced Ukraine to join Russia

No. Like, what? That's not what they were asking for.

 

[bluegate]

No. Like, what? That's not what they were asking for.

Sure it is. They wanted Ukraine so bad that they're violently invading the country, sending thousands of their young men to die for it.

This isn't about Russia not wanting them to join NATO, that was just a barrier for Russia taking the country by force.

"How dare you want to join NATO and the West, we'll invade you as punishment!", What a laughable take.

 

[Cheetodust]

Well, it seems that opinions are shifting regarding neutrality in Ireland. A bit like how Russia has made NATO membership a lot more popular in Finland.
If a majority doesn't want to join NATO than it's unlikely Ireland will. But it's not like Russia isn't handing pro-NATO arguments in a platter.

The big talking point now is that it doesn't say anywhere in our constitution that we're neutral. That being the talking point is actually quite important. The Irish constitution can only be changed by referendum. They're letting us know that that is not the case for Nato membership.

I suppose you are referring to the UK and Northern Ireland? In which case; what about Ireland's EU membership ? I mean the UK was a member until quite recently...

The EU isn't a military organisation. So I don't regard them as exactly the same. Being militarily aligned with a country that is occupying your own is different than being part of an economic organisation that did help raise the country above 3rd world status.

We have to be realistic here. "Fast tracked" is probably quite relative. I don't think there is any chance Ukraine could join the EU in its current state (even if Russia were to withdraw its troops). And this would probably also heavily strain the EU's relationship with Turkey.

Hopefully you're right.

Isn't that just opportunistic pro-government propaganda? Just like using a pandemic to make some politicians look good/bad? The way I understand War propaganda is that it is trying to change people's mind on a conflict/war.

It's both. They're trying to manufacture consent for military involvement while laying the groundwork for saying Sinn Fein would have been soft on Russia.

 

[Generals]

The big talking point now is that it doesn't say anywhere in our constitution that we're neutral. That being the talking point is actually quite important. The Irish constitution can only be changed by referendum. They're letting us know that that is not the case for Nato membership.

Heh, if Ireland isn't neutral anymore than you just joined a military alliance; the EU's mutual defense clause (which provides an exception for "Neutral" countries).

 

[Satinavian]

I can also just imagine how the UK would react to the placement of Russian and Chinese troops and missiles in Dublin or Calais. There would be much consideration for Irish and French rights, I'm sure.

Funny that you mention it.
Surely you are aware that quite recently there was a lot of noise about Belarus allowing Russia to deploy its nukes again. So basically just near the Polish border. Which means that Poland and its allies would have quite the same excuse to invade and "demilitarize" Belarus, right ? The US is not even relevant in this scenario as NATO is a pure defense organisation and everyone not near Belarus or threatened by nukes there could stay out.

But that didn't happen. It wasn't even threatened or suggested or discussed. Because no one beside Russia agrees that such an action would be remotely justified or called for.

 

[Satinavian]

The EU isn't a military organisation. So I don't regard them as exactly the same. Being militarily aligned with a country that is occupying your own is different than being part of an economic organisation that did help raise the country above 3rd world status.

Generals already mentioned the mutual defense clause. So theoretically by joining EU, all other EU countries would in the future protect from another Russian invasion. So it kind of would provide the protection Russias neighbour seek so much. However, neither the US nor the UK would be compelled to help because those are not in the EU. Also EU doesn't have a framework to actually coordinate such a common war and it would be a huge mess logistically.

Hopefully you're right.

He is right. There already have been lots of dementis. Von der Leyen got a bit ahead of herself. Interestingly joining NATO could be done far more easily and quite fast, while for joining EU you would have to seriously reorganize much of your economy.

 

[bluegate]

He is right. There already have been lots of dementis. Von der Leyen got a bit ahead of herself. Interestingly joining NATO could be done far more easily and quite fast, while for joining EU you would have to seriously reorganize much of your economy.

Yeah, Ukraine appealing to join the EU is a bad idea.

Ukraine deserves all the aid it can get, and countries should be giving it regardless, but joining the EU also comes with lots of social, economical and judicial obligations and that's not something to be decided on haphazardly.

 

[Cheetodust]

Heh, if Ireland isn't neutral anymore than you just joined a military alliance; the EU's mutual defense clause (which provides an exception for "Neutral" countries).

Generals already mentioned the mutual defense clause. So theoretically by joining EU, all other EU countries would in the future protect from another Russian invasion. So it kind of would provide the protection Russias neighbour seek so much. However, neither the US nor the UK would be compelled to help because those are not in the EU. Also EU doesn't have a framework to actually coordinate such a common war and it would be a huge mess logistically.
He is right. There already have been lots of dementis. Von der Leyen got a bit ahead of herself. Interestingly joining NATO could be done far more easily and quite fast, while for joining EU you would have to seriously reorganize much of your economy.

Ireland is a huge reason that there is an exemption for neutral countries. Part of the reason the Lisbon Treaty got through the second time was it allowed us to maintain neutrality. Honestly I feel like trying to coerce us out of that allowance could spell the end for Ireland in the EU because it would confirm people's suspicions that ultimately the EU will always get its way. I hope not, because I am pro (a reformed) EU.

 

[Trunkage]

No. Like, what? That's not what they were asking for.

That's what Putin wants. So... we should give it to him

 

[Silvanus]

That sounds like how Ukraine is already run. You think I'm impressed with elections in which communist parties are banned? Or a 'democracy' that shuts down opposition television stations? That punishes the singing of the Soviet national anthem with a prison sentence of up to five years? This is your "cloud cuckooland" democracy.

Yeah, that's pretty damn shitty.

Yet there are still elections, in which multiple competing parties have a possibility of winning. In Russia that's not the case. In Ukraine, at least most independent media outlets continue to operate; In Russia that's not the case. In Ukraine, reporters are not rounded up and executed if they report off the party script; in Russia that's not the case.

On any discernable measure regarding political freedom, even those on which Ukraine performs poorly, Russia performs far, far worse. Advocating for Ukraine's annexation is advocating for much more repressive measures to come into force (including Russia's brutalisation of left-wing and workers' movements, note; prepare for the dissolution of state-independent trade unions, and for striking to become inordinately more difficult).

That's nice, but there's no reason to focus on sanctions only in Belarus when there are deadly sanctions all over the world and the sanctions being placed on Russia are aimed at punishing their people as well as the people of other nations like Venezuela, Nicaragua, and Cuba.

There's every reason to focus on the sanctions that are actually under discussion.

If you think the current sanctions in Belarus and Russia have killed thousands and thousands of people, please, provide a source. But we both know that's bullshit to deflect from the human cost of war.

 

[Satinavian]

Ireland is a huge reason that there is an exemption for neutral countries. Part of the reason the Lisbon Treaty got through the second time was it allowed us to maintain neutrality. Honestly I feel like trying to coerce us out of that allowance could spell the end for Ireland in the EU because it would confirm people's suspicions that ultimately the EU will always get its way. I hope not, because I am pro (a reformed) EU.

I don't have the feeling anyone seriously wants to coerce Ireland to give up this specific Opt-Out. That would waste way too much political capital and goodwill for way too little gain. Ending the Irish neutrality is a pure inner-Irish discussion as it should be.

 

[Silvanus]

Then why do you insist that I pay attention to and share your criticisms of Russia etc.? Why is your response to my criticisms of the United States and NATO and my thoughts on what those entities should do, "but Russia"?

I "insist that you pay attention and share my criticisms" just as much as you "insist I pay attention and share your criticisms".

It's an online argument, for chrissakes, we're obviously going to... put forward arguments.

... because otherwise, you would shut the entire fuck up about things like THIS:

You said it would be most advantageous to acquiesce to Russian demands in order to stop the war. That would mean annexation, as it did 8 years ago.

 

[Cheetodust]

I don't have the feeling anyone seriously wants to coerce Ireland to give up this specific Opt-Out. That would waste way too much political capital and goodwill for way too little gain. Ending the Irish neutrality is a pure inner-Irish discussion as it should be.

Corporate lobbying and politicians leaving to go to into the private sector is a really big problem in ireland. The Taoiseach who bailed out the banks and opened the door to the vulture funds went on to take an advisory role in an investment company. Knowing you're on your way out of politics and absolutely looting the gaf is pretty standard practice in ireland. Our government is wildly unpopular, barely managing to actually scrape together enough seats to form a government. The plan seems to be very much grab what you can and fuck the country beyond anything an incoming Sinn Fein government could ever feasibly fix, making them look bad in the process.

Leo has very naked ambitions to get top jobs in Europe. Being the leader who got Ireland into NATO would be a feather in his cap.

Joining NATO would be an unpopular decision in ireland but they really don't care.

 

[Cheetodust]

This is only a sample. But the sheer bombardment of pro-war propaganda by the mainstream media is staggering in this country.

I also saw another blueshirt journalist try to paint anyone who supports neutrality as the "hard left".

 

[Eacaraxe]

No, we're just going to have to read you spam a lot of info to make it sound like whatever shit you're into today sound deeper than it really is. Or not read, as the case is, because I just read that introductory sentence and my mind glazed over for the rest.

Ah, ahistoricity, the neocon's best friend. Because "talky words don't matter, bad man bad, saddle up and git'em!" has worked so well in the past twenty years' of geopolitics. Tell me, at what point since bad Russia man's ascendancy, has the Cold War playbook you're citing actually worked to do a damn thing about this "Putin problem" other than make it worse?

 

[Satinavian]

Huh, seems like one of the other neutral EU members is also considering giving up neutrality.

https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik...36.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-de-DE

Of course part of the context is that Russia managed to threaten Austria after Austria critizized the invasion. Also the discussion seems to be more about whether Austria would even be allowed to give up neutrality as that neutrality was part of its WWII peace.