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Agema

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In the end it didn't work out as Germany hoped and with this last invasion Germany has finally given up and cut the ties, taking more economic hits than most other Western nations through sanctions (because of the previously built close economic ties and all the lost investment). But after trying so long and so hard for a peaceful Russia, it certainly should not be blamed as not doing enough.
It's not just that, though. Europe has to live with Russia in a way that the USA does not. There was long hope that Russia could be brought into co-operation or even amity with the EU after the Cold War by forging economic and political links, attempting to work together, and a determination to pursue that aim.

If we go back to his early days, this looked like it could be fruitful: Russia even under Putin and Medvedev had major issues, but this could be seen as "growing pains" post-USSR and improvement was still viable. The turning point was perhaps Putin's crackdown ten years ago when he returned to the presidency after Medvedev, after which things have only got steadily worse. I think history will probably look back and say that Europe probably was too inactive, and it certainly should have made more plans for fuel security. However, some credit is warranted for trying to make it work, plus that even despite Putin's backsliding to autocracy, maintaining as good relations as possible would have been beneficial when finally dealing with his successor.

So, it's not really easy to answer.
 

Terminal Blue

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Official policy was that the biggest enemy was the SPD (Social Democrats), and so the KPD spent much more time disrupting them than the Nazis, in fact at times allying with Nazis against the SPD. The KPD only really turned on the Nazi Party after the Nazi Party achieved electoral breakthrough in 1932.
Can you really blame them?

The SPD had a fairly bloody history of using far-right paramilitaries to conduct repression against radical socialists and communists, including the nascent KPD (which had split from the SPD during the first world war due to the latter's support for the war effort) as well as allying with right-wing parties to thwart the KPD politically. At the time we're talking about, the SPD also had its own paramilitary forces which were actively engaged in street fighting against the KPD. This is actually a major reason why the SPD were never as politically successful as they really should have been, they had the unfortunate reputation as the party that had overseen the crushing of the Sparticist uprising and paid cash bounties for the murder of radical socialist leaders, and they never really lived it down.

For all the many objectionable qualities of the KPD during that period, the hatred of the SPD is the one thing that seems quite reasonable.

Nowadays, we tend to play down the hostility between the SPD and the KPD in favour of remembering their shared opposition to the Nazis , but in the 20s and 30s noone knew the Nazis were going to become so important, and the ideological conflict between the SPD and KPD was very real.
 
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Seanchaidh

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If your understanding of the origins of the conflict provides no greater justification for the actions Russia is undertaking, then how does it serve the point you're trying to make?
Maybe you should read the points I make instead of imagining the points you think I'm "trying" to make.
 

Silvanus

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Maybe you should read the points I make instead of imagining the points you think I'm "trying" to make.
Maybe if your intention isn't to minimise or excuse Russian acts of aggression, then you shouldn't do exactly that for dozens of pages.
 

Silvanus

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On the Poland-Belarus border, the Belarusian armed forces have been forcing refugees at gunpoint to choose between heading to Poland (where Poland's border security meets them with violence) or Ukraine.

 

Seanchaidh

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Maybe if your intention isn't to minimise or excuse Russian acts of aggression, then you shouldn't do exactly that for dozens of pages.
Sorry that you're so offended by the fact that your government does the same shit with impunity.
 

Silvanus

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Sorry that you're so offended by the fact that your government does the same shit with impunity.
The reason this retort doesn't work is that when we discuss that shit, I'm actually consistent. I haven't denied it, excused it, deflected from it. I've constantly condemned the actions of my own government (and have protested it in person, including being kettled and all sorts of shit).

I've not indulged in any of the same rank apologia. So this is just a lazy stock retort, without any bearing on anything I've actually done or said. If you can't conceive of someone criticising Putin without somehow endorsing the US/UK governments, that just shows the bankruptcy of your own thought process.
 

Seanchaidh

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The reason this retort doesn't work is that when we discuss that shit, I'm actually consistent. I haven't denied it, excused it, deflected from it. I've constantly condemned the actions of my own government (and have protested it in person, including being kettled and all sorts of shit).
And none of that matters in the slightest. You achieved no result whatsoever. Tony Blair walks free, your people suffered no sanctions. George W. Bush and everyone else responsible are respected and celebrated. But you still act as if the UK, US, etc. have some kind of moral authority to sanction Russia.

You know who Alastair Campbell is, I presume.


Really does make you think.

I've not indulged in any of the same rank apologia. So this is just a lazy stock retort, without any bearing on anything I've actually done or said.
And yet you support sanctions and other actions against Russia that will, in all likelihood, kill people. While you live in comfort under a government that has done the exact same shit and arguably worse. That is some truly majestic "consistency" there. Your condemnation of your own government is worth precisely nothing; there is no risk of it bearing any fruit, or having any impact on you that is even close to what you advocate putting innocent people through for your misguided revenge or doomed regime change fantasy. As an excuse to sing along with the jingoistic impulses of your ruling elite it simply doesn't wash.
 

Terminal Blue

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And none of that matters in the slightest. You achieved no result whatsoever. Tony Blair walks free, your people suffered no sanctions.
Russia imposed a wide range of sanctions on various Western states after the annexation of Crimea, including a ban on food imports from the EU, of which the UK was (at the time) a member. Those sanctions amounted to billions of dollars in lost export revenue for the agricultural sectors in EU countries. Of course, agriculture in the EU tends to be heavily subsided through the CAP, and typically through domestic subsidies too, so much of this burden was taken on by states rather than vulnerable individuals. Because that is an option.

But let's think about this. You are claiming that sanctions against Russia are literally killing people. What do you think the effect is of intentionally banning importation from many of your existing food sources? What do you think would happen to food prices and food stability in your country if you did that?

That, incidentally, is the real argument against these kinds of broad sanctions. They don't work precisely because authoritarian and fascist regimes don't care about the wellbeing of their people. In the case of Russia, the Russian government has shown absolute and total contempt for the plight of its people, and absolutely no objection to taking actions which have, in all likelihood, killed them. People living under authoritarian governments cannot do anything to halt the actions which have prompted the sanctions, and a state which is in no way accountable to them is not going to shoulder the economic burden. So yes, people will die. People will die with the full complicity of the Russian government you keep defending, who could stop them from dying but will undoubtably choose not to.

Anyway, follow the leader. I can't wait to hear all the good things about sanctions now. Those boots aren't going to lick themselves clean.
 
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Generals

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Your condemnation of your own government is worth precisely nothing; there is no risk of it bearing any fruit, or having any impact on you that is even close to what you advocate putting innocent people through for your misguided revenge or doomed regime change fantasy.
The exact same goes for your anti Israel, pro China or pro Russia propaganda. The same goes for everyone's post on this minuscule forum actually. So it is totally irrelevant to this discussion.

Anyway, your argument yet again boils down to "if the west can do it than so can Russia". Which is a morally bankrupt argument. It is especially bankrupt when you have no issue demonizing and condemning any western country engaging in such behavior.
 
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Seanchaidh

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That, incidentally, is the real argument against these kinds of broad sanctions. They don't work precisely because authoritarian and fascist regimes don't care about the wellbeing of their people.
But you just described them not working against European countries while European countries did precisely the opposite (to the deep though fleeting gratitude of their agribusiness lobbies, no doubt).

The point of such sanctions is to make the people suffer. That is the mechanism of how they are supposed to work. The fantasy is that the people will regard their leaders as responsible for their pain rather than the people who actually imposed the sanctions and so overthrow their leaders in order to stop the sanctions rather than rallying around their leaders because that's a pretty natural thing to do when people are faced with hostility from abroad.

They don't work either way. And it wouldn't be a good justification to impose them on innocent populations even if they did.

Anyway, follow the leader. I can't wait to hear all the good things about sanctions now. Those boots aren't going to lick themselves clean.
One wonders how many times I have to ignore your weird attempts at poisoning the well on arguments I wasn't planning on making anyway before you'll absorb the hint that I'm not the caricature you've constructed in your head to be mad at and/or afraid of. Will you get it this time? Will pointing out that's what is going on help that particular synapse to fire?

The exact same goes for your anti Israel, pro China or pro Russia propaganda. The same goes for everyone's post on this minuscule forum actually. So it is totally irrelevant to this discussion.
I'm not supporting policy which will happen and will make things worse; Silvanus is. Silvanus is "consistent" in opposing the criminal actions of his own government secure in the knowledge such opposition won't go beyond ineffectual protest and opposing similar actions by Russia with the full array of coercive forces available to the global empire of the United States of America (including, among other countries, the UK). This is what we might call a bit lopsided such that to use the description "consistent" is riotously absurd.
 

Silvanus

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And none of that matters in the slightest. You achieved no result whatsoever. Tony Blair walks free, your people suffered no sanctions. George W. Bush and everyone else responsible are respected and celebrated. But you still act as if the UK, US, etc. have some kind of moral authority to sanction Russia.
Sorry, what the fuck are you even on about? I haven't achieved any concrete policy changes, so therefore I must be... supportive of the shit I've been condemning them for? You need help.

And yet you support sanctions and other actions against Russia that will, in all likelihood, kill people. While you live in comfort under a government that has done the exact same shit and arguably worse. That is some truly majestic "consistency" there. Your condemnation of your own government is worth precisely nothing; there is no risk of it bearing any fruit, or having any impact on you that is even close to what you advocate putting innocent people through for your misguided revenge or doomed regime change fantasy. As an excuse to sing along with the jingoistic impulses of your ruling elite it simply doesn't wash.
My condemnation of my own government is not an "excuse" for supporting sanctions. Its unconnected. Literally the only reason I brought it up is because you came out with some misdirected shit about me being "offended" at the suggestion my own government has been involved in terrible stuff too. Its worth pointing out that doesn't "offend" me in the slightest, because I've always been open about that.

I'd support sanctions because I would support any approach that might pressure the end of war, and thereby save lives. If you think surrender followed by imperial annexation would be the more "humanitarian" approach, you need to have a think.

And while we're here: there's zero chance any of your verbal diarrhea will make any difference whatsoever either. It's also worthless. Its also not going to bear fruit. And just the same, you sit here and endlessly advocate for putting innocent people through horrors of war that would dwarf the impact of sanctions.

So spare me the rancid moralising. Neither of us are achieving policy objectives, obviously, you fool. The very least you can do is be consistent.
 

Generals

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I'm not supporting policy which will happen and will make things worse;
In case of China you are supporting policy which is happening and makes things worse for Uyghurs in China.
In case of Israel it's not clear what you want but it sure doesn't look "good" since you continuously posted accusatory tweets and articles so I suppose it does involve some kind of punitive policies?
As for Russia; since Russia has already invaded countries with little western response, so that method has been shown to be ineffective. Maybe now Putin will think twice before invading another country in the future. And I am not sure how questioning the well documented link between Wagner and the Kremlin is supporting good policy? If anything that is supporting policy which leads to the use of shady mercenary groups which are not "officially" accountable to the government.

None of your stances are based on good or bad policy. They are based on being anti-west. China and Russia are rival superpowers therefor you decide to blindly repeat their propaganda and shift all the blame of any shit they commit on the West. Well it's either the West's fault or it's Western lies.
 
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Trunkage

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I'm not supporting policy which will happen and will make things worse; Silvanus is.
Citation needed. All I've seen is you supporting policies that will definitely make things worse

Can I also say that all this concern about sanctions hurting the average Russia a little ludicrous. Not because it wont happen. It will. It just doesn't have huge effect Putin did to his own people

As soon as Putin crossed that border, he signed millions of death warrant. Prices will skyrocket everywhere around the world and that's gonna kill people. In effect, crossing that border put sanctions on every other countries. So whatever you're so worried about with sanctions, times it by 200. Because you've now damaged every country that much. Then you have the problem of destroy food supplies which doesn't effect the West that much but definitely hurts the Middle East and Africa. And, of course, his own people. What a smart plan

But sure. let's worry about sanctions, which admittedly doesn't help, but if you remove them, it's not really going to keep the Russia people alive, let alone everyone else. Putin killing them enough as it is
 

Seanchaidh

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Sorry, what the fuck are you even on about? I haven't achieved any concrete policy changes, so therefore I must be... supportive of the shit I've been condemning them for?
So therefore your opposition is cheap or meaningless, or performative if you prefer-- like I actually said, not some other point you think is more susceptible to attack.

You need help.
And yet here you are not helping.

Its worth pointing out that doesn't "offend" me in the slightest, because I've always been open about that.
That and $5 adds up to $5.

So spare me the rancid moralising. Neither of us are achieving policy objectives, obviously, you fool. The very least you can do is be consistent.
You are "consistent" in opposing the criminal actions of your own government secure in the knowledge such opposition won't go beyond ineffectual protest (and, as Terminal Blue points out, ineffectual sanctions by much smaller economies against your relatively quite rich country) and opposing similar actions by Russia with the full array of coercive forces available to the global empire of the United States of America (including, among other countries, the UK).

In practice this amounts to supporting the greater imperial power against the lesser: the perfect form of 'anti-imperialism' for the social chauvinist in the imperial core. Ineffectual protest of the dominant empire, coercive and deadly measures against any that might challenge that dominion. You support both! Consistent! XD

I might have some sympathy for your viewpoint if you hadn't given up on seeking justice for the invasion of Iraq, or indeed if anyone had actually been held responsible and suffered appropriate consequences or attempted to make amends in a serious way (or at all!). But that didn't happen. That's still a task before you; a debt our countries owe among many others. And until that is resolved or at least moving in the direction of being resolved, the actions you support are hypocritical in the extreme. So you support hypocrisy to the benefit of the most powerful.

I'd support sanctions because I would support any approach that might pressure the end of war, and thereby save lives. If you think surrender followed by imperial annexation would be the more "humanitarian" approach, you need to have a think.
The most productive thing the United States could do right now is to ... well, actually, it's to give back the ungodly sum of money it recently stole from Afghanistan. But apart from that, it is to do what it can to encourage Ukraine and Russia to make peace-- not by a sanction strategy that is extremely unlikely to do anything except cause pain to innocent people, but by making the reasonable concessions related to security and neutrality that Russia has demanded for the past 14 years-- and letting them keep Crimea (because that appears to be what the Crimeans want) and somehow resolving the Donbass situation to the satisfaction of the people living there. I don't actually know that a peace deal like this is still possible; once a nation is at war and winning, typically they want more from a peace deal than they would have accepted not to go to war in the first place. The US and NATO shouldn't have let it get to this point, and if either had any genuine care about the wellbeing of Ukraine, they wouldn't have. Instead they urged Ukraine to poke the Russian bear without any intention of backing them up in an effective way; to not have any intention of helping Ukraine fight Russia is fine, it makes sense. But in combination with urging them to provoke, it is monstrous. The answer is not to enact sanctions that will have deadly effect on the Russian people (to say nothing of the other pain they will cause Europe and elsewhere) but do more or less nothing to stop the war, it is to stop the delusion of a faux alliance with Ukraine entirely and stop using Ukraine as a proxy to damage Russia.

You would prolong the war and the deadly bombing with the same end result-- except that the swap of territory between the US/IMF puppet state and Russia would be yet more likely to encompass the whole country; the longer the war goes on, the more likely that is.
 

Satinavian

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You are "consistent" in opposing the criminal actions of your own government secure in the knowledge such opposition won't go beyond ineffectual protest (and, as Terminal Blue points out, ineffectual sanctions by much smaller economies against your relatively quite rich country) and opposing similar actions by Russia with the full array of coercive forces available to the global empire of the United States of America (including, among other countries, the UK).
So your whole opposition to the sanction is not based on Russia not doing anything wrong or sanctions not being justified, it is only based on how those imposing the sanctions are not morally integer enough to judge Russia ?

Let me tell you, morally integrity of the sanctioner is the last thing i care about and other see it similarly. No one would bat an eye if China or maybe even North Korea applied justified sanctions to end some horrible crime, no matter what their own histories were. The more such sanctions, the better.

It is when the sanctions are not justified, that they get bad.


The most productive thing the United States could do right now is to ...
The US is pretty irrelevant to this conflict. Russia is fighting the Ukraine, not the US. And from NATO, the European members closest to Ukraine are most involved.

Peace negotiations are between Ukraine and Russia as well. The US is not involved and won't even get asked. And the Ukrainians don't want to cede territory to the fascist invaders.
 
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tstorm823

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In practice this amounts to supporting the greater imperial power against the lesser.
Just another regular reminder to people here: this is the only point Seanchaidh cares about. He views power as both a relative measurement and a zero sum game, so any event that weakens a lesser power (Russia) is viewed as a gain for the most powerful player (the US). Anything that weakens the US is justified, anything that strengthens the US is to be condemned. Thus, sanctions against Russia (in Seanchaidh's mind) are to be condemned, as weakening Russia strengthens the US in relative terms.

Nothing but that matters, everything else is rationalization. The efficacy of sanctions don't matter, the history of Russia doesn't matter, the moral compass of leaders does not matter. It's entirely "the world is dominated by US hegemony, therefore the US and allies need to be brought down, therefore all rivals are to be supported". That's the whole logic.

Which, for the record, doesn't even justify most of these positions, as invading Ukraine genuinely weakens Russia regardless of whether there are sanctions or not. Putin is not going to be able to annex the entirety of Ukraine, he's messing up his own food sources, which is going to drive Europe further towards US dependence even if the rest of the world outside Ukraine said and did nothing. This invasion, in relative terms, makes the US position stronger.
 
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Silvanus

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So therefore your opposition is cheap or meaningless, or performative if you prefer-- like I actually said, not some other point you think is more susceptible to attack.
Ooook? So what's the point you're making, then? Stuff ain't getting changed by criticism & protest, so might as well not bother? OK, but... you constantly criticise stuff too. Including in countries far away and outside the control of the country you live in. So... hmm.

That and $5 adds up to $5.
Same as all the arguments you've made, too, then. Neither of us are changing anything.


You are "consistent" in opposing the criminal actions of your own government secure in the knowledge such opposition won't go beyond ineffectual protest (and, as Terminal Blue points out, ineffectual sanctions by much smaller economies against your relatively quite rich country) and opposing similar actions by Russia with the full array of coercive forces available to the global empire of the United States of America (including, among other countries, the UK).

In practice this amounts to supporting the greater imperial power against the lesser: the perfect form of 'anti-imperialism' for the social chauvinist in the imperial core. Ineffectual protest of the dominant empire, coercive and deadly measures against any that might challenge that dominion. You support both! Consistent! XD

I might have some sympathy for your viewpoint if you hadn't given up on seeking justice for the invasion of Iraq, or indeed if anyone had actually been held responsible and suffered appropriate consequences or attempted to make amends in a serious way (or at all!). But that didn't happen. That's still a task before you; a debt our countries owe among many others. And until that is resolved or at least moving in the direction of being resolved, the actions you support are hypocritical in the extreme. So you support hypocrisy to the benefit of the most powerful.
What incredible intellectual bankruptcy. It would take quite a while to untangle this Gordian knot of self-contradiction.

So to get this straight: you believe that a country's own ongoing issues must be addressed and solved before that country can play any part in preventing other current atrocities elsewhere. The old "charity begins at home" fallacy chestnut, that's the long and the short of it. And what a complete circus of a position that is: forego any ability we may have to prevent death or save lives, because some unrelated issues haven't yet been solved. Allow things to get worse and worse and worse unless they're addressed in exactly the right order and only one-at-a-time.

And of course, as always, you're unable to apply any standard whatsoever consistently. For Russia need not solve its own severe, brutal repression and oligarchic tyranny before it wades into another country. No, they're free to invade, nary a peep.

And (ineffectually) protesting the US and UK while also (ineffectively) protesting Russia is not somehow supporting the former against the latter. Because preventing Russian wars of aggression is not somehow vital to maintaining Western hegemony. Fucking obviously. If you want to argue that shelling hospitals and annexing smaller countries is vital to ending Western capitalist power, please, I'd love to hear it. But the international working classes are not served by imperialist expansion if it happens to be someone else doing it. They are, in fact, dying.

The most productive thing the United States could do right now is to ... well, actually, it's to give back the ungodly sum of money it recently stole from Afghanistan. But apart from that, it is to do what it can to encourage Ukraine and Russia to make peace-- not by a sanction strategy that is extremely unlikely to do anything except cause pain to innocent people, but by making the reasonable concessions related to security and neutrality that Russia has demanded for the past 14 years-- and letting them keep Crimea (because that appears to be what the Crimeans want) and somehow resolving the Donbass situation to the satisfaction of the people living there. I don't actually know that a peace deal like this is still possible; once a nation is at war and winning, typically they want more from a peace deal than they would have accepted not to go to war in the first place. The US and NATO shouldn't have let it get to this point, and if either had any genuine care about the wellbeing of Ukraine, they wouldn't have. Instead they urged Ukraine to poke the Russian bear without any intention of backing them up in an effective way; to not have any intention of helping Ukraine fight Russia is fine, it makes sense. But in combination with urging them to provoke, it is monstrous. The answer is not to enact sanctions that will have deadly effect on the Russian people (to say nothing of the other pain they will cause Europe and elsewhere) but do more or less nothing to stop the war, it is to stop the delusion of a faux alliance with Ukraine entirely and stop using Ukraine as a proxy to damage Russia.

You would prolong the war and the deadly bombing with the same end result-- except that the swap of territory between the US/IMF puppet state and Russia would be yet more likely to encompass the whole country; the longer the war goes on, the more likely that is.
I would prolong the war and the bombing, he says, while licking the boots of the actual perpetrator.

Agreeing to annexation would not end the war. Because you may have noticed that Ukraine didn't have WMDs, and it didn't matter to Russia. This has been an annexation project from the start. And if full capitulation is offered, then you'll have... what, a few years of "peace" (as Putin carries out the same purges he always does, rounds up and executes gay people and journalists, and completely dismantles democracy)... before he starts to move on Moldova, or Sweden. And then we'll be back here again, with you griping until you're blue in the face that ooooobviously Russia isn't going to invade! Those are just routine manoeuvres! Oh, well, ok, they invaded, but NATO drove them to it! The only way to stop the bloodshed is to let them take it!
 
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hanselthecaretaker

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Never fear people; Elon Musk is prepared to fight Putin (literally) for Ukraine -

Of course, it would’ve been far more awesome if he called it “mortal” combat.
 

Trunkage

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Sorry for the Vaush


Former Ambassador to Russia thinks the Putin is worse than Hitler because Hilter never killed any 'Ethnic Germans.'

He's been called out for this obvious factual mistake and said he was sorry... for breaking the taboo of comparing someone to Hitler

Fucking Centrists