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Phoenixmgs

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It is actually true.



Well yes, and if someone emphasizes that "making fun" part as the provocation which lead to the reaction they're likely trying to justify or excuse the reaction. At the very least to a certain extent.
Short of calling the war a "special military operation" your sources repeated a lot of Kremlin propaganda. It's more like saying he's right on 8 out of 10 points. In which case, yes you're likely on his camp, even if unwillingly.
Yes, all of what my articles said is Kremlin propaganda and so is what Lt. Col. Daniel Davis said as well, looks like we need to bring back McCarthyism because retired American lieutenant colonels and black journalists from Indiana are apparently Commies spreading Kremlin propaganda. Acting like their was no provocation at all is propaganda.
 

Avnger

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Yes, all of what my articles said is Kremlin propaganda and so is what Lt. Col. Daniel Davis said as well, looks like we need to bring back McCarthyism because retired American lieutenant colonels and black journalists from Indiana are apparently Commies spreading Kremlin propaganda. Acting like their was no provocation at all is propaganda.
Oh, we're already back to the exact same shit you pulled with the COVID threads where you pick a random couple of semi-credentialed "experts" that already agree with your beliefs and then endlessly shill them as if they're the only sources of truth (at least until they disagree with you in which case you immediately banish them to the shadowzone to find a replacement)...
 

Phoenixmgs

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Oh, we're already back to the exact same shit you pulled with the COVID threads where you pick a random couple of semi-credentialed "experts" that already agree with your beliefs and then endlessly shill them as if they're the only sources of truth (at least until they disagree with you in which case you immediately banish them to the shadowzone to find a replacement)...
All my covid stances are backed up by data and the very top experts (like Paul Offit or throw dart at random European country and ask their health experts that don't agree with the US), just because they don't fit the narrative doesn't make them wrong. A lot of what was called covid "misinformation" is now just information if you haven't been paying attention.

What the fuck? I knew basically nothing about the Ukraine situation, I had no beliefs going in and just read a couple articles (as I not going to read something from mainstream media as that is propaganda as well). It's not some fringe / conspiracy theory stance to simply say Russia was provoked in some manner. You're acting like I'm saying there's tracking devices in vaccines or 5G towers spread covid or Russia is stopping the next Hitler. Why do you think this retired US lieutenant colonel is making shit up? He literally won the 2012 Ridenhour Prize for Truth-telling. Yep, he's obviously some Commie scum.
 

Gergar12

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Russia is gaining territory and will capture Kyiv by the end of their month despite having poor organization, communication, and sanctions by the west.

I knew those top attack missiles we sent them weren't enough, and the end of the video shows an analysis that many outlets haven't shown. That the West, and or the US is expecting a type of war with likely Russia in the long term over this, or perhaps even China due to the censorship of Russian media outlets signaling a tempering down of freedoms which is common before a war.
 

Kwak

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Generals

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What the fuck? I knew basically nothing about the Ukraine situation,
Knew... and probably "know".

I had no beliefs going in and just read a couple articles (as I not going to read something from mainstream media as that is propaganda as well).
So you read articles from media much more biased than the mainstream media and you think that's going to inform you about the conflict?


It's not some fringe / conspiracy theory stance to simply say Russia was provoked in some manner. You're acting like I'm saying there's tracking devices in vaccines or 5G towers spread covid or Russia is stopping the next Hitler. Why do you think this retired US lieutenant colonel is making shit up? He literally won the 2012 Ridenhour Prize for Truth-telling. Yep, he's obviously some Commie scum.
This is not about one Lt Colonel's opinion. This is about you linking three articles that together pretty much repeat Putin's propaganda. And please note that Putin tends to have support from both Commies and Fascists.

Acting like their was no provocation at all is propaganda.
No, it's a correct assessment of reality. Everything that is usually mentioned as provocation is either irrelevant or itself a reaction to Russian provocation.

Let's take NATO: it's a mix of both. First it's irrelevant because Ukraine is not a member of NATO and therefor you do not respond to one's provocations by attacking another. It's like punching Avenger because I insult you. It just doesn't work that way. But it's also an argument that brings up a reaction to Russian provocation. Ukraine didn't ask for NATO membership after Euromaidan, it's only after Russia invaded Crimea and Eastern Ukraine they did. So after a clear Russian provocation. So the only relevant NATO related argument is itself a reaction to Russian aggression.

Than you have the Donbass war: again, this war wouldn't exist if Russia didn't orchestrate a coup which they backed with weapons and personnel. So the conflict there is a reaction to Russian aggression.

The "Nazi" problem: irrelevant, you don't get to invade a country because it has X or Y nazis. And especially not if you're yourself a neo Fascist country which uses a para-military organization infested by Fascists to fight for you around the globe.

The persecution of ethnic Russians: it's a myth. Although I am certain the 8 year long conflict with Russia will create ethnic tensions. Who can we thank for that? Ah yes, Russia. And let's not forget this sounds like a very Adolf Hitlery excuse to invade places.

So what "provocation" do you want to bring to the table?
 

Satinavian

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What the fuck? I knew basically nothing about the Ukraine situation, I had no beliefs going in and just read a couple articles (as I not going to read something from mainstream media as that is propaganda as well).
It is a war and most sources are biased. If you specifically look for stuff contradicting mainstream and mainstream is supportive of Ukraine, you will mostly find mostly pro-Russia stuff. That won't tell you what is wrong or not.
It would be better to look specifically for sources that should be uninvolved neutral or for sources from places that are near the action and have active independend press.
Have you, by chance, noticed how even most Russia allied countries are not willing to repeat the Kremlin propaganda ? Or how those events are reported in neutral nations ? Or how every Ukrainian neighbour country sees it ? Have you noticed how many formerly Putin-friendly politicians and pundits all over Europe are not willing to follow his arguments this time, shattering whole political parties ?

As for the Russian assertions : Have you looked whether any left-wing or antifascist movement that is not overly Russia friendly has ever complained about Nazi influence in Ukraine ? Have you ever seen people from the Russian diaspora complain about suppression of Russians in Ukraine ? Have you ever seen NGOs trying to help the poor ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine or even try to pressure Western nations to do something about supposed Ukrainian crimes there ? The lack of anything about any of that is not traceable to Russian sources makes it clear that there is no or only little substance behind.


US anti-mainstrem groups are very vulnerable to propaganda because people only contrast with mainstream media and if it is different, they believe it. Because it takes time and effort to check your sources/ contrast with others. Obviously it also helps speaking several languages, but we are in the time of having access to everything on the internet and being able to use google translate. If you really wanted, you could research your stuff.

It's not some fringe / conspiracy theory stance to simply say Russia was provoked in some manner.
The US has been somewhat insufferable after winning the Cold War and did things that could count as provokation (mostly around missile defense). But that is many years ago (they got humbled in Afghanistan and Iraq) and it was the US and not the Ukraine.

The only provocation from Ukrainian side is basically "existing" and "going a different way from Russia, seeking economic benefits from joining EU instead of trying to revive the Soviet Superpower and its influence". You could call that provocation, but, well...



As for Putin as the next Hitler : Putin does not have plans to exterminate hundreds of millions of supposed subhumans to get his racial pure utopia. That is quite a big difference.
But everything else ? Well, they seem quite similar when it comes to killing political enemies, accepting collateral damage, running the economy and frankly, Putin has less justification to invade the Ukraine than Hitler had for Poland.
 
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Agema

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Acting like their was no provocation at all is propaganda.
"Provocation" is a very loaded term.

The West has a right to forge links with Ukraine, and Ukraine has a right to forge links with the West. Russia thinks that Ukraine and the West need to ask Russia's permission in order to interact with each other, and hence what "provocation" means in this context. It's Russia's attitude to the Baltic States, too, except that ship sailed already. It's there in Russia's warning to Finland and Sweden not to join NATO. Russia thinks it has the right to have a say in everything that occurs east of the Oder River, even though it's 30 years since it had the power to enforce it (and I mean enforce - see Hungary 1956 and Czechoslovakia 1968).

It is important in this regard to consider Russian policy towards Ukraine: specifically, that Russia effectively wants Ukraine as a vassal state. It's right there in Putin's speeches: Ukraine isn't a real country or nation, it's a bit of Russia that accidentally ended up as a different country as the result of an old policy mistake that Russia now needs to correct.

No matter what anyone wants to say about how the West has "interfered" in Ukraine to make Ukraine friendlier to the West, it is nothing compared to what Russia has been up to. And that Ukraine's desire to slip out from Russian dominance is in no small part due to the malign nature of Russian influence, because Russia is run by brutal authoritarians and that's how it treats Ukraine, too. In a way, we could understand Russian thuggery: Russia's got nothing but natural gas and an army. It's hardly in a position to offer economic and human development.

So "provocation" is sort of true, and yet also propaganda. It seeks to portray the West and characters in the West (chiefly Biden) as at fault, by declining to acknowledge the reality of Russia's unreasonable demands, or it's very real agency in deciding to embark on a tragic and abhorrent campaign of destruction.
 
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Silvanus

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So "provocation" is sort of true, and yet also propaganda. It seeks to portray the West and characters in the West (chiefly Biden) as at fault, by declining to acknowledge the reality of Russia's unreasonable demands, or it's very real agency in deciding to embark on a tragic and abhorrent campaign of destruction.
Not only that, but also by automatically valuing Russia's agency over Ukraine's. According to that view, one power (Russia) has the very reasonable right to self-determination, self-defence, and a reasonable expectation of protection against undue outside influence, which the US has infringed upon...

...but Ukraine doesn't have those same rights. And the distinguishing factors (relative size, military power, arbitrary historical considerations) are all ultimately the same shallow imperialist justifications the European colonialists trotted out. It boils down to chauvinism.
 

Dalisclock

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Firing the stinger in the vague direction of incoming missile and praying.
You can shoot down helicopters with RPG-7's. It's difficult and you probably have to get lucky but it's doable if the aircraft are moving slowly . A stinger is at least a heat seeker and can be fired at something coming in head on and still have a chance to hit.
 

Dalisclock

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Doesn't the Admiral Kuznetsov regularly sink all by itself, like from someone on board sneezing or such?
According to Wikpedia, the only ship in the Admiral Kuznetsov class, the Admiral Kuznetsov is currently in refit/repair from it's floating dry dock sinking and a crane crashing onto it. And due to delays it's not expected to deploy until late next year at the earliest. Assuming no more delays like the Russian Economy going into free fall or something.

So yeah, this all tracks. I wouldn't be shocked if they discover the ships engines have been sold by the Naval Minister so he could buy a mega-yacht and all that'a actually in there are a couple of sausages with a note saying "Sorry, comrades" in Russian. The real joke would then be that said Mega-Yacht was probably parked in Antwerp and now belongs to Belgium.
 
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Gergar12

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Even if I vote democrat, this article is very misleading. One the republicans vote against the entire budget not just the aid to Ukraine. They were voting against likely social spending and other democratic provisions. If the 13.6 billion was a standalone bill it would have passed with 90 plus votes if not 99 with Rand Paul voting no or 98 plus Rand Paul, and Sanders voting no. I make it a habit to see bias in Wapo's articles even if they support my side.

A better title would be 'Republicans vote against the entire 1.5 trillion dollar budget of the fiscal year 2022 in spite of aid to Ukraine'. Or a related title.