Utah creates 5 person commission to regulate one trans girl playing sports

Silvanus

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But if said policies work, then they would work. Surely, some blue state with tons of restrictions should out-perform Florida with its eyes closed if said policies work, right?
Well yes, the best performing states on your own list are Democrat-run ones.

And no, "if policies work", that's no guarantee that you'll uniformly see the same rate of success everywhere. Even with exactly the same policies implemented in two different places, the impact wouldn't necessarily be the same, depending on existing public health, culture, public compliance, sanitation, public transport... These things are impacted by a thousand other myriad factors and hidden variables. All you'd see is a trend.

And we do see a trend. Generally speaking, countries and states with earlier and better-observed public restrictions experienced fewer deaths per capita.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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What actual government policy is hating on trans people? You can't stop people from hating other people. Nobody that is for fair competition in women's sports is hating on trans women.
Oh yeah, literally nobody. Ignore all the massive, sweeping legislation regarding tiny groups of people
OMG, I didn't think I'd need to put an exception of "random people hating on other people because that what's people have always done" in there. There's always some people hating on others that are different, you're not going to stop that outside of the culture changing over time. Do we need to fight for fat rights because people call other people fat? There hasn't been any government policy that is singling out trans people because of hate. Is there some government bill pending about no trans allowed on Jeopardy or hot pepper eating contests?
Mormon said:
Four kids and only one of them playing girls sports. That’s what all of this is about. Four kids who aren’t dominating or winning trophies or taking scholarships. Four kids who are just trying to find some friends and feel like they are a part of something. Four kids trying to get through each day. Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few. I don’t understand what they are going through or why they feel the way they do. But I want them to live. And all the research shows that even a little acceptance and connection can reduce suicidality significantly. For that reason, as much as any other, I have taken this action in the hope that we can continue to work together and find a better way. If a veto override occurs, I hope we can work to find ways to show these four kids that we love them and they have a place in our state.


I recognize the political realities of my decision. Politically, it would be much easier and better for me to simply sign the bill. I have always tried to do what I feel is the right thing regardless of the consequences. Sometimes I don’t get it right, and I do not fault those who disagree with me. But even if you disagree with me, I hope this letter helps you understand the reasons for my decision.
Sports is separated by sex, not gender. Simple as that.
Simple:
 

Eacaraxe

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Just render the issue moot already by making all sports associations mixed-gender, and creating divisions by weight and height classes depending upon whichever is most correlated to performance.
 

Terminal Blue

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What actual government policy is hating on trans people?
Currently in the US, trans people are specifically excluded from many forms of sex-based protection against discrimination, including healthcare. There has been a degree of political back and forth on this issue since the Obama administration, but the Trump administration saw an extensive campaign to deliberately exclude trans people from various forms of legal protection from discrimination, most notably from discrimination by healthcare professionals.

This is horrendous for two reasons. Firstly, because it took place during a worldwide pandemic, and secondly, because trans people have literally died on the street or in hospital beds because doctors, EMTs or paramedics refused to treat them. The issue of transgender healthcare protections was spurred in large part because of some genuinely horrific cases like this, cases involving absolute disregard for human life. The lawmakers responsible for this issue, on both sides, are absolutely familiar with that context.

What word, other than hatred, do you think exists to describe people who would consciously and deliberately defend the right of a first responder to stand around photographing a transwoman's genitals while she lies dying, instead of providing medical care? Who would consider that indifference to be a form of protected religious liberty more important than a trans person's right to life.

Hatred of trans people is so normalized within government policy that we're not even talking about trans rights being under threat, we're often talking about how to get trans rights implemented in law at all.
 

Trunkage

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So what that you can't change SEX on your birth certificate? What the fuck does that matter? The law isn't banning trans people from playing sports, stop saying stuff that isn't true. Sports is separated by SEX, not gender. Trans people have not been banned from playing sports anywhere in the US.
Its two different laws

1. You can't change sex on birth certificate
2. Only those with women on their birth certificate can play women sports

If you don't have the FIRST law, the SECOND law is pointless. Because transwomen could just change their gender

It's really easy to understand - if you CAN'T change you gender, you CAN'T play
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Its two different laws

1. You can't change sex on birth certificate
2. Only those with women on their birth certificate can play women sports

If you don't have the FIRST law, the SECOND law is pointless. Because transwomen could just change their gender

It's really easy to understand - if you CAN'T change you gender, you CAN'T play
He's arguing that trans girls should play against boys and trans boys should play against girls because that's what they really are.
 

Schadrach

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Just render the issue moot already by making all sports associations mixed-gender, and creating divisions by weight and height classes depending upon whichever is most correlated to performance.
Though I'd point out that this is probably a Title IX violation unless there's some explicit discrimination to ensure a certain number of girls participate. I can't imagine just grouping by height or weight classes, having mixed gender teams and picking the best players that try out would result in the right level of equality of outcome to not be deemed discriminatory.
 

tstorm823

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He's arguing that trans girls should play against boys and trans boys should play against girls because that's what they really are.
As a minor point, anybody can play in "men's sports" for the most part. Girl's playing football (US), women entering Open events, etc have happened plenty of times. Only women's sports is really strictly protected, and that's for a reason.
 

Terminal Blue

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Though I'd point out that this is probably a Title IX violation unless there's some explicit discrimination to ensure a certain number of girls participate. I can't imagine just grouping by height or weight classes, having mixed gender teams and picking the best players that try out would result in the right level of equality of outcome to not be deemed discriminatory.
Professional sports aren't fair.

The vast majority of the human population, irrespective of sex, could not be professional athletes (or at the very least would have to work way harder to achieve equivalent performance) simply because they are not physiologically suited. We all have different frames with different capacity to build muscle mass, we all have different metabolic processes and hormone profiles. To reach the level of a professional athlete, a person needs to have a degree of natural ability which not everyone has, which means having the right physical attributes. If you don't have those attributes, if you don't have the right genetics, tough shit.

The physiological differences between men and women aren't, as conservatives tend to believe, magic. They are clearly measurable and based on physiological differences which also exist in the population as a whole. There is a very clear difference between the performance of male and female weightlifters at the top level, but it doesn't change the fact that most of us, men included, could train all our lives and never be able to lift the same proportion of our own bodyweight as a female Olympic weightlifter.

If you're interested in making sports fair and accessible, why stop at women, why not accommodate varying physiological features across the entire population?

Weightlifting is indeed a great example of why height and weight alone wouldn't always cut it as a means of creating fair competition categories, because bodybuilding is divided into weight categories, and men still outperform women. That's because female athletes on average will have a different body composition. But there will be many, many cis men out there (not even mentioning trans women on estrogen whose body composition will be largely identical to a cis woman) who fall into the same category. Having or having once possessed a penis won't magically give those men and transwomen an advantage.

It should not be difficult, with our existing level of physiological knowledge, to create categories for fair competition which are far more accessible and precise than "men" and "women".

Our society has a lot of weird, pseudo-eugenic baggage around professional sports and athletics, because professional sports originated at a time when eugenics was widely believed. It's essentially a kind of human horseracing, we take a bunch of genetic freaks with abnormal physical features or ability and pit them against each other. But what if we didn't do it like that, what if we set out to create a sporting environment in which anyone who is willing to put in the time and effort can take part and compete fairly against people physiologically similar to themselves. I think that would require a large scale reconsideration of why we do sports and athletics, but I ultimately think it would be kinder, healthier and more fun for everyone.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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As a minor point, anybody can play in "men's sports" for the most part. Girl's playing football (US), women entering Open events, etc have happened plenty of times. Only women's sports is really strictly protected, and that's for a reason.
Lmao, I sincerely hope the nation keeps this newfound respect for women's sport even after they ban trans people from it, because they sure as shit didn't care prior to the current panic over single digit numbers of trans women
 
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tstorm823

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Lmao, I sincerely hope the nation keeps this newfound respect for women's sport even after they ban trans people from it, because they sure as shit didn't care prior to the current panic over single digit numbers of trans women
This is projection.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Well yes, the best performing states on your own list are Democrat-run ones.

And no, "if policies work", that's no guarantee that you'll uniformly see the same rate of success everywhere. Even with exactly the same policies implemented in two different places, the impact wouldn't necessarily be the same, depending on existing public health, culture, public compliance, sanitation, public transport... These things are impacted by a thousand other myriad factors and hidden variables. All you'd see is a trend.

And we do see a trend. Generally speaking, countries and states with earlier and better-observed public restrictions experienced fewer deaths per capita.
I'm not talking about exactly the same success. Florida is the perfect example because it's been open basically the whole time; no lockdowns, no mask or vaccine mandates, school open basically the whole time, and basically made fun of "the science" and Fauci the entire time. Surely a blue state with tons of restrictions and following "the science" should perform better than Florida where they didn't follow "the science" and their governor is nicknamed Death-Santis, right? You ever think that Florida followed science that works vs "the science"? Desantis banned visitation to nursing homes when there was only a handful of cases in the state and did not allow nursing homes to take in covid patients from hospitals. He refused to close beaches because that made no sense yet the dumbass news had stories saying how bad it was that people were at the beach and spreading a virus that doesn't spread outside.

Oh yeah, literally nobody. Ignore all the massive, sweeping legislation regarding tiny groups of people



Simple:
Cuz that's unfair obviously. Women are banned from the Olympics if their testosterone levels are too high because taking testosterone can make you perform better. It's not going to be an equal playing field if you let women or women transitioning to men to take testosterone or trans women transitioning from being a man. That's why there's no news story about say a trans woman playing chess is there? Can you pull up some story about someone hating some trans woman playing women's chess? Probably, but there's no actual calls to ban them from playing because chess is something that doesn't involve physical ability whatsoever.

Just render the issue moot already by making all sports associations mixed-gender, and creating divisions by weight and height classes depending upon whichever is most correlated to performance.
That wouldn't work. A man with the same height and weight will beat a woman.

Currently in the US, trans people are specifically excluded from many forms of sex-based protection against discrimination, including healthcare. There has been a degree of political back and forth on this issue since the Obama administration, but the Trump administration saw an extensive campaign to deliberately exclude trans people from various forms of legal protection from discrimination, most notably from discrimination by healthcare professionals.

This is horrendous for two reasons. Firstly, because it took place during a worldwide pandemic, and secondly, because trans people have literally died on the street or in hospital beds because doctors, EMTs or paramedics refused to treat them. The issue of transgender healthcare protections was spurred in large part because of some genuinely horrific cases like this, cases involving absolute disregard for human life. The lawmakers responsible for this issue, on both sides, are absolutely familiar with that context.

What word, other than hatred, do you think exists to describe people who would consciously and deliberately defend the right of a first responder to stand around photographing a transwoman's genitals while she lies dying, instead of providing medical care? Who would consider that indifference to be a form of protected religious liberty more important than a trans person's right to life.

Hatred of trans people is so normalized within government policy that we're not even talking about trans rights being under threat, we're often talking about how to get trans rights implemented in law at all.
So you're saying it's against the law to not treat a man or woman and take pictures of their genitals but it is lawful to not treat a trans person and take pictures of their genitals? I'm pretty sure you can't refuse emergency medical care to anyone.


Its two different laws

1. You can't change sex on birth certificate
2. Only those with women on their birth certificate can play women sports

If you don't have the FIRST law, the SECOND law is pointless. Because transwomen could just change their gender

It's really easy to understand - if you CAN'T change you gender, you CAN'T play
Yes, I got it the first time.

1) So?
2) It's because sports is based on sex not gender.

You can play sports with the men if you're a transwoman.

He's arguing that trans girls should play against boys and trans boys should play against girls because that's what they really are.
No, because that's fair. Maybe a fully transitioned trans woman is completely biologically equal in physical performance to other women and if that's the case, then there's no issue; however, I very much doubt we can fully reverse the physical abilities of biological sex. Even if they're 90% there to being a woman in physical ability, that's still a rather significant advantage. If I wanted only "real" women to be associated with anything regarding women, then I'd be against trans women playing women's chess. No reason that a trans woman can't win best actress in the Oscars as well.

I also have no problem with trans people playing with their gender if the sport is just recreational and for fun. But when the players are serious about training, performing well, and possibly getting money, then you need as fair a competition as possible. Some people playing a sport is their whole life basically, they will be very slighted if they feel they lost due to being disadvantaged whether it's another player cheating or a trans athlete having a biological advantage.
 

Trunkage

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Yes, I got it the first time.

1) So?
2) It's because sports is based on sex not gender.

You can play sports with the men if you're a transwoman.
No. You didn't.

A transwoman CANNOT be classed as a female on their birth certificate. For sports, all transwomen in that state are classed as male. They are ONLY allowed to play in male sports
 

Phoenixmgs

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No. You didn't.

A transwoman CANNOT be classed as a female on their birth certificate. For sports, all transwomen in that state are classed as male. They are ONLY allowed to play in male sports
And? How is that banning/stopping them from playing sports?

There's some good reason to not allow people to change their sex on official documents. Like if you're a doctor and your patient is unconscious, I'm sure there's many times the doctor would need to know the sex of the person for better treatment and being able to look at a driver's license or state ID would be preferrable over a genital inspection.
 

Trunkage

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Just to be clear, the Idaho laws are stupidier than you think. Since you can only join the sport based on what sex you were assigned at birth, no one other than male under Idaho law can compete with males. It's no longee open like most competitions.

That means that transmen, who have to be classed as women, have to be in the women competition.... and the transmen have been winning. Now, they got their knickers in a knot making transpeople evil over that
 

Trunkage

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And? How is that banning/stopping them from playing sports?

There's some good reason to not allow people to change their sex on official documents. Like if you're a doctor and your patient is unconscious, I'm sure there's many times the doctor would need to know the sex of the person for better treatment and being able to look at a driver's license or state ID would be preferrable over a genital inspection.
You can only play the sport you are assigned at birth.

It's does not matter if your trans. It only matter how you were born.

Yes, you analogy of the doctor is great. THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE TO SHOW YOUR BIRTH CERTIFICATE. In case you look a different way. You can only play the league associated with what you are born with
 

Phoenixmgs

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You can only play the sport you are assigned at birth.

It's does not matter if your trans. It only matter how you were born.

Yes, you analogy of the doctor is great. THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE TO SHOW YOUR BIRTH CERTIFICATE. In case you look a different way. You can only play the league associated with what you are born with
Just to be clear, the Idaho laws are stupidier than you think. Since you can only join the sport based on what sex you were assigned at birth, no one other than male under Idaho law can compete with males. It's no longee open like most competitions.

That means that transmen, who have to be classed as women, have to be in the women competition.... and the transmen have been winning. Now, they got their knickers in a knot making transpeople evil over that
That's not what the Idaho law says, it only pertains to women's sports. If the following is an old law or the wrong one, then let me know because the original article you linked to does not link to the laws and this was the one I found.

There is no line about only males can participate in men's sports. The following line is the only thing in the law designating women's or men's sports.

Athletic teams or sports designated for females, women, or girls shall not be open to students of the male sex.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Cuz that's unfair obviously. Women are banned from the Olympics if their testosterone levels are too high because taking testosterone can make you perform better.
BANNING WOMEN FROM COMPETITION BECAUSE THEIR BODY NATURALLY PRODUCES EXTRA T IS A BAD THING YOU NITWIT. If some gal has muscles that don't produce lactic acid like Phelps a valid reason for her not to be a woman and have to play with dudes too? Where's this stupid notion stop?
I also have no problem with trans people playing with their gender if the sport is just recreational and for fun. But when the players are serious about training, performing well, and possibly getting money, then you need as fair a competition as possible. Some people playing a sport is their whole life basically, they will be very slighted if they feel they lost due to being disadvantaged whether it's another player cheating or a trans athlete having a biological advantage.
Hi, we're talking about high school, where amateur sports are played for fun and community and the idea that they're a boot camp for professional leagues is a bad thing.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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And? How is that banning/stopping them from playing sports?

There's some good reason to not allow people to change their sex on official documents. Like if you're a doctor and your patient is unconscious, I'm sure there's many times the doctor would need to know the sex of the person for better treatment and being able to look at a driver's license or state ID would be preferrable over a genital inspection.
Hey good point. Maybe ban gential surgery next for the exact same reason, in case the odd hypothetical trans person doesn't have their ID on them