School shooting at Texas Elementary school, several children reported dead

[Eacaraxe]

And don't get me started on the state-fair going lard asses eating fried butter and carrying ARs thinking they can take on the SEALs. Its so absurd 2nd amendment nuts honestly think they have a chance of taking on the Federal or even state Governments.

Don't get me started on the unarmed, unarmored, people protesting for a more politically and economically equitable country with equal protection under the law, and an end to police brutality, who somehow always end up on the receiving end of all that high-end military gear cops get. You know, opposed to the MEAL Team Six members and their tacticool cosplay who don't actually pose a threat to US oligarchs, and therefore get treated with kid gloves.

The very event this topic discusses, showcases the discrepancy between how cops treat people when they aren't a threat, and when they actually are. Or, did you just miss that whole part where cops spent an hour and a half outside beating the shit out of terrified parents, while the gunman was still in the school blasting away kids?

As far as I'm concerned we can have a conversation about gun control in this country, when I can call the cops to respond to an emergency without fearing I just signed a black neighbors' death warrant. And I'll personally make goddamn sure the centerpiece of that conversation will be how any forthcoming gun control legislation won't disproportionately target black Americans, because the history of gun control in the US is so intricately tied into its history of white supremacy the two cannot exist without the other, that continues to be the case today, and the people you'd expect to enforce gun control in the US are the violent white supremacists in the first fucking place.

And second up will be how gun ownership isn't even a strong or reliable predictor for gun violence, or even violent crime in sum, while the two biggest predictors and correlatives are lead pollution (see, Flint, MI) and Gini coefficient. God forbid we actually engage in any root-cause analysis, here. But it's not like the whole-ass job of those violent white supremacists I mentioned last paragraph, is to protect property, socioeconomic elites, and to violently enforce the status quo rather than serve the public and protect the common good.

I'd also note that Iraq or Afghanistan couldn't outlast the US if the US wanted to last. There wasn't any good reason to stay, beyond the sunk cost fallacy and national pride, so they left, which is not the case in the US.

You mean, other than the couple trillion bucks' worth of rare earth minerals in the geographically- and strategically-critical mountainous country that controls the only linkage between central and eastern Asia?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

You mean, other than the couple trillion bucks' worth of rare earth minerals in the geographically- and strategically-critical mountainous country that controls the only linkage between central and eastern Asia?

Much cheaper to buy that shit from the Taliban than maintaining an occupation though.

I keep repeating this, but the most powerful military in the world couldn't defeat a bunch of under-supplied terrorists living in caves over the course of 20 years, and the arguably second most powerful military in the world is currently getting their tanks stolen by a bunch of farmers with tractors.

Movies have really made us think more highly of the military than we should. Sort of the same thing with police and how they're huge heroes risking their lives in every movie, but in real life will just let children get shot for an hour while doing nothing.

I see this sentiment a lot and I just have to point out: we absolutely kicked the shit out of the Taliban. Defeated them militarily on a weekly basis with hugely lopsided numbers.

It's just that they live there. Getting rid of them permanently would mean getting rid of them permanently, and we aren't quite that far gone.

What people who think they can fight the government over here never seem to realize is that the military *also* lives over here.

 

[Leg End]

What people who think they can fight the government over here never seem to realize is that the military *also* lives over here.

Which means they also *live over here*. Leveling shit is a lot different when it's *your* shit and/or *your* people, but results may vary.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Which means they also *live over here*. Leveling shit is a lot different when it's *your* shit and/or *your* people, but results may vary.

Not really. When it's leftists, the US government has no qualms about targeted assassinations or bombing a city block. They'd just have to take off the kid gloves they use against the right wing

 

[Agema]

Much cheaper to buy that shit from the Taliban than maintaining an occupation though.

You can't buy shit off the Taliban. They are a broken, backward gang happy running a broken, backward country that is borderline incapable of mining anything valuable in scale. Of course, the nature of Afghanistan being such a chaotic disaster zone is you couldn't buy anything useful from it with the Taliban prevented from running it, either. Except, maybe, opium.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

I don't think the rules can be that simple.

Many shooters just kill until they are stopped. That's straightforward: take them down ASAP. But if you have a shooter who may have killed a load of people but is currently holed up with apparent hostages, that surely falls under normal hostage tactics. After all, if you have a shooter in a room with people they aren't killing, then you're not under an urgent requirement to act and going in guns blazing has substantial risk of loss of life to the hostages.

Since when do school shooters take hostages? Every single call to police during the shooting pointed directly to doing exactly what the training is. The training is for a classic school shooter situation obviously, and that is literally the training for it. Sure, the police aren't just gonna bust in with simply a report of a gun in the school.

 

[Gordon_4]

You can't buy shit off the Taliban. They are a broken, backward gang happy running a broken, backward country that is borderline incapable of mining anything valuable in scale. Of course, the nature of Afghanistan being such a chaotic disaster zone is you couldn't buy anything useful from it with the Taliban prevented from running it, either. Except, maybe, opium.

EDIT: Prior to September 11, the Taliban actively kept opium production to a minimum; basically there was enough for their personal use in their territories but did not grow for sale or trade. Indeed they executed any third party found growing or selling it. Now new management after two decades may have had a change of heart having seen what a money spinner it is, but last I looked they were setting those fields on fire.

So hey, heroin is about to get more expensive again. Just like everything else.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

EDIT: Prior to September 11, the Taliban actively kept opium production to a minimum; basically there was enough for their personal use in their territories but did not grow for sale or trade. Indeed they executed any third party found growing or selling it. Now new management after two decades may have had a change of heart having seen what a money spinner it is, but last I looked they were setting those fields on fire.

Yep, as far as I know they've gone full on into eradicating opium cultivation... but Afgahnistan being Afghanistan who the fuck knows? A little bit of baksheesh can go a long way.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Yep, as far as I know they've gone full on into eradicating opium cultivation... but Afgahnistan being Afghanistan who the fuck knows? A little bit of baksheesh can go a long way.

I don't think the Taliban are really any more in charge of Afghanistan than anyone else has ever been. There's loads of people living in the hills and mountains that probably haven't even heard of them.

Anyway, maybe we should veer back on topic?

 

[Gordon_4]

I don't think the Taliban are really any more in charge of Afghanistan than anyone else has ever been. There's loads of people living in the hills and mountains that probably haven't even heard of them.

Anyway, maybe we should veer back on topic?

Okay, here’s my thoughts. The cops fucked this up a filthy drainpipe. If the beat coppers thought they were ill-equipped to handle a gunmen (or multiple gunmen) then fine, they should have scrambled a tactical unit toot-fucking-sweet and they should have gone in. Because that’s what those special units are equipped to do, what they’re trained to do. They failed to do so and whatever else may be pointed about their duties on paper, the Ulvade police failed in their moral and philosophical duty on every level.

 

[Agema]

They failed to do so and whatever else may be pointed about their duties on paper, the Ulvade police failed in their moral and philosophical duty on every level.

Well, perhaps it might be more accurate to say that they failed on our belief about their moral and philosophical duty. Their actions on the day might indicate they have a rather different idea about their duty than we do.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Okay, here’s my thoughts. The cops fucked this up a filthy drainpipe. If the beat coppers thought they were ill-equipped to handle a gunmen (or multiple gunmen) then fine, they should have scrambled a tactical unit toot-fucking-sweet and they should have gone in. Because that’s what those special units are equipped to do, what they’re trained to do.

I thought they did, and SWAT people were amongst those standing round outside.

 

[SilentPony]

I thought they did, and SWAT people were amongst those standing round outside.

They did. The SWAT team fully equipped with ballistic shields, vests and ARs themselves stood around for 40mins because they were afraid of getting hurt.

 

[Agema]

I was curious to read that the Uvalde police chief has reported that he didn't think he was in charge of the siege. I mean, officially in charge, not that he just wasn't able to control the situation, although he most certainly wasn't able to do that either if he didn't take charge. Plus he left his police radio behind when he went into the school because something something it would get in the way something and effectively lost crucial ability to communicate with police officers.

So... who else did he think would be in charge? As the senior officer on site, how could he not assume it's his job until a superior officer arrived and relieved him? How the hell could he not realise that he needed to be running the show, rather than trying out to see if keys would open doors, which even the most half-witted copper could do?

 

[Xprimentyl]

I was curious to read that the Uvalde police chief has reported that he didn't think he was in charge of the siege. I mean, officially in charge, not that he just wasn't able to control the situation, although he most certainly wasn't able to do that either if he didn't take charge.

As unfunny as this whole situation is, THAT is funny. Sounds like a case of accepting the power, but not appreciating the responsibility that comes with it. Uncle Ben, drop the mic...

 

[Thaluikhain]

I was curious to read that the Uvalde police chief has reported that he didn't think he was in charge of the siege. I mean, officially in charge, not that he just wasn't able to control the situation, although he most certainly wasn't able to do that either if he didn't take charge. Plus he left his police radio behind when he went into the school because something something it would get in the way something and effectively lost crucial ability to communicate with police officers.

If only there was a bunch of police standing round being useless he could have borrowed a radio from.

But, yeah, avoiding responsibility on the big things like that is a common failing. Other notable examples would include the response to 911 while the planes were in the air, and the Norwegian response to the German invasion. The Norwegians, at least, recognised and took steps to prevent this happening again.

 

[Agema]

If only there was a bunch of police standing round being useless he could have borrowed a radio from.

No... it's not so much that. He had brought a radio, but left it behind (in his car?) to go into the school and try to open some doors. All those cops were outside. He'd just occasionally call from his mobile phone.

And that's possibly why all those cops were standing around doing nothing. Their commanding officer was on-site, they're waiting for orders, but he's dicking around with keyholes instead of telling them what to do. Although, to be fair, inasmuch as he does appear to have decided anything, it's that it was a hostage situation: in which case a bunch of otherwise clueless plods would think their job is to clear the area, cover the exits and sit tight until told otherwise.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

They did. The SWAT team fully equipped with ballistic shields, vests and ARs themselves stood around for 40mins because they were afraid of getting hurt.

Well, it's fun to put a bullet in the back of an unarmed black man while you have your knee on his neck. But when the perps can shoot you? Well, that's not fun at all!

 

[Trunkage]

I was curious to read that the Uvalde police chief has reported that he didn't think he was in charge of the siege. I mean, officially in charge, not that he just wasn't able to control the situation, although he most certainly wasn't able to do that either if he didn't take charge. Plus he left his police radio behind when he went into the school because something something it would get in the way something and effectively lost crucial ability to communicate with police officers.

So... who else did he think would be in charge? As the senior officer on site, how could he not assume it's his job until a superior officer arrived and relieved him? How the hell could he not realise that he needed to be running the show, rather than trying out to see if keys would open doors, which even the most half-witted copper could do?

Probably a guy who believes in Elite Panic

 

[Gordon_4]

I thought they did, and SWAT people were amongst those standing round outside.

They did. The SWAT team fully equipped with ballistic shields, vests and ARs themselves stood around for 40mins because they were afraid of getting hurt.

Then that failure is applied thrice fold. Not a one of them is worth the oxygen they draw. Whomever trained them - which at this point is looking weirdly like 'nobody' - should also bear the consequences of this colossal fuck up.