The Souls Series Replayed

[sXeth]

I can solve this argument in one simple statement.

When a Souls game comes out, countless people cry and beg for an easy mode. When a monster hunter comes out, nobody cries about it being hard.

Based on trophy aggregators, most people don't get out of the tutorial in Monster Hunter. The same people in my usual circle that manage to push through Souls mostly dropped off entirely when they hit the first few HR quests, or if they squeaked through that, Elder Dragons.


But more relevantly, Monster Hunter has never been publicized, hyped, and explicitly marketed on its difficulty ("PREPARE TO DIE" Edition, much). Souls wasn't originally either, actuallly Yahtzee's Demons Souls reviews might even be patient zero there.

From the Skyrim vs Dark Souls vs Dragons Dogma year? Dragons Dogma was infinitely harder (And actually did patch in not one, but two easier modes due to fan demand) (And still people don't manage to beat the game).

You don't find hundreds of "No hit" "Level 1 naked" or people playing the game on an actual toaster runs on youtube if its that difficult. Streamers who are actively not paying attention to the game and talking to chat manage to beat them reliably.

Are Souls slightly above the median in difficulty? Possibly, though much of that I attribute to just bloat on the hp/damage values, the most boring kind of difficulty you can make, because its not skill required to dodge the same move 7-10 times, its patience and time wasting. But most of their reputation for it is an echo chamber of hype and buying into the games marketing as much as any other.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I can solve this argument in one simple statement.

When a Souls game comes out, countless people cry and beg for an easy mode. When a monster hunter comes out, nobody cries about it being hard.

Does MH have difficulty modes? Lol regardless, I’d hate to see how much people would be whining if Souls games were actually as difficult as people like @Phoenixmgs think they should be.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Based on trophy aggregators, most people don't get out of the tutorial in Monster Hunter. The same people in my usual circle that manage to push through Souls mostly dropped off entirely when they hit the first few HR quests, or if they squeaked through that, Elder Dragons.


But more relevantly, Monster Hunter has never been publicized, hyped, and explicitly marketed on its difficulty ("PREPARE TO DIE" Edition, much). Souls wasn't originally either, actuallly Yahtzee's Demons Souls reviews might even be patient zero there.

From the Skyrim vs Dark Souls vs Dragons Dogma year? Dragons Dogma was infinitely harder (And actually did patch in not one, but two easier modes due to fan demand) (And still people don't manage to beat the game).

You don't find hundreds of "No hit" "Level 1 naked" or people playing the game on an actual toaster runs on youtube if its that difficult. Streamers who are actively not paying attention to the game and talking to chat manage to beat them reliably.

Are Souls slightly above the median in difficulty? Possibly, though much of that I attribute to just bloat on the hp/damage values, the most boring kind of difficulty you can make, because its not skill required to dodge the same move 7-10 times, its patience and time wasting. But most of their reputation for it is an echo chamber of hype and buying into the games marketing as much as any other.

Kinda sorta. Definitely marketing as Miyazaki himself never wanted people to focus on difficulty so much as simply playing thoughtfully to overcome obstacles that initially *seemed* impossible. However, I think it’s as much a vocal minority as it is marketing bs regarding difficulty perception. Looking up MHW and DS3 on PSN profiles show a 4/10 difficulty rating and 7/10 difficulty rating respectively, which is typical for FROM games including ER. The completion rates suggest a more dedicated fanbase in the latter case as well.

 

[sXeth]

Kinda sorta. Definitely marketing as Miyazaki himself never wanted people to focus on difficulty so much as simply playing thoughtfully to overcome obstacles that initially *seemed* impossible. However, I think it’s as much a vocal minority as it is marketing bs regarding difficulty perception. Looking up MHW and DS3 on PSN profiles show a 4/10 difficulty rating and 7/10 difficulty rating respectively, which is typical for FROM games including ER. The completion rates suggest a more dedicated fanbase in the latter case as well.

Yeah taking that.
Sapphire Star (which is the final boss trophy of MHW) - Has 45%
DS3 doesn't have a trophy for the Soul of Cinder, but linking the flame has 45%.

At face value, that seems even, but...


The dropoff for leaving low rank (tutorial/easy mode) in Monster Hunter is about 12% (from 58% down to 51% with some decimals). The main dropoff starts immediately even in the low rank Apex monsters. Anjanth to Legiana LR goes from 68 to 60. The climax of low rank is at 57%, a barely 50% fought Nergigante. And then it drops down to 45% for the other Elder Dragons and Xenojiiva.

Conversely, the DS3 has a pretty steady rate of 70-75% going all the way up to the Lords of Cinder. Soul of Cinder has no actual trophy to measure, but the dropdown for the ending trophies is likely related to being split between 3 paths more then anything. I certainly doubt that 30% of players got to Soul of Cinder and then said "nope I"m out" (and that the other 40-45% played the game 3 times over for the 90 second ending cutscenes)


As the difficulty raitng goes,
I can't even see the difficulty rating on the Souls page, and the MHW doesn't substantiate itself in any kind of way. So I could only draw the conclusion (Because hell, even the pages don't stick to the same format) thats its just up to the whims of whichever random wiki edited that page up (presumably the list of authors thats around the top somewhere).

 

[CriticalGaming]

The dropoff for leaving low rank (tutorial/easy mode) in Monster Hunter is about 12% (from 58% down to 51% with some decimals). The main dropoff starts immediately even in the low rank Apex monsters. Anjanth to Legiana LR goes from 68 to 60. The climax of low rank is at 57%, a barely 50% fought Nergigante. And then it drops down to 45% for the other Elder Dragons and Xenojiiva.

Not for nothing but I think a lot of the Monster Hunter drop off is that the game expects a level of grinding. You have to repeat monsters to gather parts to then get gear that will make the next monsters more doable. And that is a gameplay loop that gets boring for people very fucking fast.

Souls however gives most people a rush after beating a boss you ride a high for a little while that attempts to drag you onto the next area and next boss. In souls you beat the boss and your off to the next thing. But in MH you aren't you are expected to fight the same thing over and over. This is even in the missions, where the first mission is to kill it, then the next mission is to just trap it, but either way that's fighting the same thing twice. Trapping is also really annoying, gathering shit is tedious.

Point being, I think MH faces different gameplay challenges that lead to play drop off versus souls. Which further highlights why I don't think these games are comparable.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Yeah taking that.
Sapphire Star (which is the final boss trophy of MHW) - Has 45%
DS3 doesn't have a trophy for the Soul of Cinder, but linking the flame has 45%.

At face value, that seems even, but...


The dropoff for leaving low rank (tutorial/easy mode) in Monster Hunter is about 12% (from 58% down to 51% with some decimals). The main dropoff starts immediately even in the low rank Apex monsters. Anjanth to Legiana LR goes from 68 to 60. The climax of low rank is at 57%, a barely 50% fought Nergigante. And then it drops down to 45% for the other Elder Dragons and Xenojiiva.

Conversely, the DS3 has a pretty steady rate of 70-75% going all the way up to the Lords of Cinder. Soul of Cinder has no actual trophy to measure, but the dropdown for the ending trophies is likely related to being split between 3 paths more then anything. I certainly doubt that 30% of players got to Soul of Cinder and then said "nope I"m out" (and that the other 40-45% played the game 3 times over for the 90 second ending cutscenes)


As the difficulty raitng goes,
I can't even see the difficulty rating on the Souls page, and the MHW doesn't substantiate itself in any kind of way. So I could only draw the conclusion (Because hell, even the pages don't stick to the same format) thats its just up to the whims of whichever random wiki edited that page up (presumably the list of authors thats around the top somewhere).

Link fixed for DS3 trophy guide. One other thing to note would be completion rates displayed are for PSN Profiles site members, and tapping/clicking that value will show rates based on all PSN users.

Going by that, the To Link the First Flame trophy in DS3 is at 29.7%, and the Sapphire Star trophy in MHW is at 39.6%.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Dark Souls 3:

Following up the incredible Bloodborne FromSoft releases the second Dark Souls that Miyazaki was directly involved in, Dark Souls 3. Because Miyazaki wasn't a part of Dark Souls 2, and just how many fans seem to hate DS2, many people consider Dark Souls 3 the true sequel to the original Dark Souls game. And the references, lore, and even location in Dark Souls 3 seem to suggest that as well. Returning to places like Andor Londo and fighting the Soul of Cinder who is basically your character from the first game.

So Dark Souls 3 brings back a lot of that tight design that people loved about DS1, however it's immediately pretty clear that Dark Souls 3 is still more linear than the original game was at the begining, but that is trades off with zones themselves that are bigger and much more open than any game before it. There are still multiple paths in places, but each path will usually either dead end, or circle itself back to somewhere you are supposed to go from earlier in the area.

The biggest change in Dark Souls 3 is the combat. Taking a page from Bloodborne, Dark Souls 3 is much faster than any souls game before it. Enemies have swings and combos that go long far longer than you will be used too come from DS1, or 2. This can be quite jarring if you aren't ready for it. But at the same time it does make sense and the combat is still heavy and methodical. The enemies will attack in rapid bursts, but there is still that downtime where the player can openly punish. Additionally they've added weapon arts in addition to the typical magic. Also they've brought the mana bar back, not seen since Demon's Souls. You can split your estes flask into health potions and mana potions and you can freely allot your charges to either depending on how you are building your character out.

The weapon arts are an attempt to give melee players something extra to do and give the mana bar a use for everyone. Unfortunately the weapon arts in this game are nothing like the Elden Ring weapon arts. For the most part Dark Souls 3's weapon arts are pretty useless, which is unfortunate or maybe not considering how dominating they became in ER it's probably better that they suck. But maybe there could be a middle ground we could get in future games.

Dark Souls 3 is my favorite in the Souls series mostly because of the bosses. I feel like the pacing and the variety of the bosses here is just right and each fight has a memorable fun to them (except Mider, fuck Mider) that make replaying DS3 always a joy. It's not particularlly hard, or maybe it is. Playing all these games in such close proximity to each other has really put my skills on point. But I do think Dark Souls 3 is easier than previous games generally, but not because the enemies or bosses aren't challenging. I think what makes DS3 feel so much easier is strictly because of how smooth and responsive the controls are this time around. All the previous games have suffered from a certain amount of jank that always added a clunkiness to how they played. But that is completely gone in DS3 and you are playing a smooth responsive game which makes it just easier to play.

Dark Souls 3 is ultimately about as good as I think these Fromsoft games can get. Between this and Bloodborne, I don't think Fromsoft can really do better and should hope to make every game in this level of quality.

Sadly we know that isn't the case.

Now I have to deal with Sekiro...and i really really don't want to deal with Sekiro.

 

[sXeth]

Link fixed for DS3 trophy guide. One other thing to note would be completion rates displayed are for PSN Profiles site members, and tapping/clicking that value will show rates based on all PSN users.

Going by that, the To Link the First Flame trophy in DS3 is at 29.7%, and the Sapphire Star trophy in MHW is at 39.6%.

With the other set of trophy stas
All the Lords of Cinder hover around 50% so unless half the people who got that far randomly gave up with one boss remainging., its mainly a factor of splitting into 3 endings trophywise.

The MHW ones drop down to the 50% mark around the same range as previously noted in the transition to High Rank (when all the monsters actually have full movesets), which is essentially when the game stops being a tutorial (And yes, its a long extended tutorial).

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Dark Souls 3:

Following up the incredible Bloodborne FromSoft releases the second Dark Souls that Miyazaki was directly involved in, Dark Souls 3. Because Miyazaki wasn't a part of Dark Souls 2, and just how many fans seem to hate DS2, many people consider Dark Souls 3 the true sequel to the original Dark Souls game. And the references, lore, and even location in Dark Souls 3 seem to suggest that as well. Returning to places like Andor Londo and fighting the Soul of Cinder who is basically your character from the first game.

So Dark Souls 3 brings back a lot of that tight design that people loved about DS1, however it's immediately pretty clear that Dark Souls 3 is still more linear than the original game was at the begining, but that is trades off with zones themselves that are bigger and much more open than any game before it. There are still multiple paths in places, but each path will usually either dead end, or circle itself back to somewhere you are supposed to go from earlier in the area.

The biggest change in Dark Souls 3 is the combat. Taking a page from Bloodborne, Dark Souls 3 is much faster than any souls game before it. Enemies have swings and combos that go long far longer than you will be used too come from DS1, or 2. This can be quite jarring if you aren't ready for it. But at the same time it does make sense and the combat is still heavy and methodical. The enemies will attack in rapid bursts, but there is still that downtime where the player can openly punish. Additionally they've added weapon arts in addition to the typical magic. Also they've brought the mana bar back, not seen since Demon's Souls. You can split your estes flask into health potions and mana potions and you can freely allot your charges to either depending on how you are building your character out.

The weapon arts are an attempt to give melee players something extra to do and give the mana bar a use for everyone. Unfortunately the weapon arts in this game are nothing like the Elden Ring weapon arts. For the most part Dark Souls 3's weapon arts are pretty useless, which is unfortunate or maybe not considering how dominating they became in ER it's probably better that they suck. But maybe there could be a middle ground we could get in future games.

Dark Souls 3 is my favorite in the Souls series mostly because of the bosses. I feel like the pacing and the variety of the bosses here is just right and each fight has a memorable fun to them (except Mider, fuck Mider) that make replaying DS3 always a joy. It's not particularlly hard, or maybe it is. Playing all these games in such close proximity to each other has really put my skills on point. But I do think Dark Souls 3 is easier than previous games generally, but not because the enemies or bosses aren't challenging. I think what makes DS3 feel so much easier is strictly because of how smooth and responsive the controls are this time around. All the previous games have suffered from a certain amount of jank that always added a clunkiness to how they played. But that is completely gone in DS3 and you are playing a smooth responsive game which makes it just easier to play.

Dark Souls 3 is ultimately about as good as I think these Fromsoft games can get. Between this and Bloodborne, I don't think Fromsoft can really do better and should hope to make every game in this level of quality.

Sadly we know that isn't the case.

Now I have to deal with Sekiro...and i really really don't want to deal with Sekiro.

Since you mentioned ‘except Midir I take it you’re doing the DLCs too? Because I’d go so far as to say they objectively contain some of the best content in all of these games. Father Ariandel and Sister Friede is an exemplary boss fight that encapsulates everything that makes a good one in these games. Presentation, a wide arc of pacing that demands temperance of the player, awesome phase transitions, music, etc. It kinda put the Ashes DLC over the top for me, plus having some of the best level design in the game.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Stamina isn’t just for attacking as it’s also tied to defensive options and poise. So yes, you need to manage it for that too. Being elitist about “proper stamina systems” doesn’t mean it isn’t implemented as intended or at fault for a lack of excessive contrivances. If it wasn’t in there, then someone could block endlessly which would eliminate the need for rolling, which also uses stamina that could be used for attacking. Many FROM bosses are aggressive enough to where balancing offensive and defensive use of stamina matters. Sister Friede is a good example.

Just because someone does a no hit run doesn’t mean it’s so easy anyone can do it. If that was the case it wouldn’t be such a big deal seeing the same few people being the ones to pull those runs off.

You can have the shields have a poise amount (which they already do IIRC) and base the amount of blocking on that. There's already rather obvious visual signal/animation when your shield gets "broken", why do you need some bar on the screen for that? Like I said before, you can easily remove stamina from Souls if From just fixed the poise system but that is harder to do than just leaving in stamina as a band-aid fix to that issue. Or you can do a Bloodborne and just remove shields because they were always half-baked anyway. I didn't say the games are so easy anyone can do a no-hit run, I said most anyone can get through the trash mobs as the runners do because it's just about adopting the same strategy vs gaining some actual reflex/controller input skills. The boss battles (most have cheap strats) and the overall dedication to playing a certain way for the entirety of the game are the hard parts of those runs.

Does MH have difficulty modes? Lol regardless, I’d hate to see how much people would be whining if Souls games were actually as difficult as people like @Phoenixmgs think they should be.

When have I ever said the Souls games should be harder? I said they aren't nearly as hard as their reputation, not that they should be as hard as their reputation. It's like people don't even read what I say. And, I also said giving Souls or any game a difficulty option (or literally any option) is fine in my book because options are good regardless if I want that option or not because you or I can use or not use any option, there's no harm in adding in options to any game. The way I'd like to see Souls games evolve is actually removing like 90% of the combat and making the game an environmental puzzler and horror game because those are the most interesting aspects of the game. The combat is average at best and is the majority of how you interact with the game vs the most interesting aspects. That might result in a harder game to finish but it will be far less hard on a skill-based aspect. It's like how Portal doesn't really require any controller input skills, it's just figuring out what to do. I think that should be at least 75% of a Souls game, figuring out what to do vs constantly fighting trash mobs.

 

[sXeth]

Now I have to deal with Sekiro...and i really really don't want to deal with Sekiro.

I mean, its not technically a Souls game. If your doing a run through of FROMsouls adjacent things, you also need a Kingsfield and a shadow Tower (though Remnant from the Ashes is basically Shadow Tower not late 90s jankfest edition)

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

You can have the shields have a poise amount (which they already do IIRC) and base the amount of blocking on that. There's already rather obvious visual signal/animation when your shield gets "broken", why do you need some bar on the screen for that? Like I said before, you can easily remove stamina from Souls if From just fixed the poise system but that is harder to do than just leaving in stamina as a band-aid fix to that issue. Or you can do a Bloodborne and just remove shields because they were always half-baked anyway. I didn't say the games are so easy anyone can do a no-hit run, I said most anyone can get through the trash mobs as the runners do because it's just about adopting the same strategy vs gaining some actual reflex/controller input skills. The boss battles (most have cheap strats) and the overall dedication to playing a certain way for the entirety of the game are the hard parts of those runs.


When have I ever said the Souls games should be harder? I said they aren't nearly as hard as their reputation, not that they should be as hard as their reputation. It's like people don't even read what I say. And, I also said giving Souls or any game a difficulty option (or literally any option) is fine in my book because options are good regardless if I want that option or not because you or I can use or not use any option, there's no harm in adding in options to any game. The way I'd like to see Souls games evolve is actually removing like 90% of the combat and making the game an environmental puzzler and horror game because those are the most interesting aspects of the game. The combat is average at best and is the majority of how you interact with the game vs the most interesting aspects. That might result in a harder game to finish but it will be far less hard on a skill-based aspect. It's like how Portal doesn't really require any controller input skills, it's just figuring out what to do. I think that should be at least 75% of a Souls game, figuring out what to do vs constantly fighting trash mobs.

Different shields have different poise break values. Remove the meter and how will you know how many hits you can take, since every attack has different values. And shields are far from half-baked or useless in these games.

Spoiler

Speaking of trash mobs, for the umpteenth time they are by far the most optional enemies in the game. Most can simply be run past if need be. They populate the game world for lore reasons as much if not more-so than combat. Some are good for farming so it’s up to the player. The beauty of Souls games is they’re already loaded with options if people choose to look for them.

I think most people would be bored if 90% of combat was removed. It’s a character building game so not sure what else people would build characters for if they were mostly puzzle games. Could environments that size be justified or even practical to fill with puzzles? Chances are it would be a lot of empty, wasted space and they’d have to be scaled back.

 

[Dalisclock]

I mean, its not technically a Souls game. If your doing a run through of FROMsouls adjacent things, you also need a Kingsfield and a shadow Tower (though Remnant from the Ashes is basically Shadow Tower not late 90s jankfest edition)

Sekiro is in this wierd spot where it's both very much a souls game in it's level design and a lot of it's gameplay, and very much not one due to how the main combat loop being based around posture breaking, parrying, deflects and use of special tools, not to mention a much more overy storyline. So you could take it as one if you want or not.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Sekiro is in this wierd spot where it's both very much a souls game in it's level design and a lot of it's gameplay, and very much not one due to how the main combat loop being based around posture breaking, parrying, deflects and use of special tools, not to mention a much more overy storyline. So you could take it as one if you want or not.

I thoroughly enjoyed it save for a couple frustrating boss encounters (and Headless, because seriously F. Headless), plus it’s on the higher end of replayability due to the mobility and more action-y flavor. The downside is it seems to have less of the stuff that might count as a product of Miyazaki’s wild side.

 

[Dalisclock]

I thoroughly enjoyed it save for a couple frustrating boss encounters (and Headless, because seriously F. Headless), plus it’s on the higher end of replayability due to the mobility and more action-y flavor. The downside is it seems to have less of the stuff that might count as a product of Miyazaki’s wild side.

I have really fond memories of Sekiro and the fact your sole focus was on learning the boss and the combat system as opposed to "Am I leveled enough? Is my Gear right for this fight?" because the leveling doesn't make much difference in the long run and the tools are situational for the boss.

 

[Brokencontroller]

Personally id skip Sekiro simply because it doesnt really fit into the Soulborne genre. It doesnt even have a piece of the name.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

@CriticalGaming are you still going for Platinums on all these? If so, which has been the easiest, toughest, most annoying, etc.

 

[CriticalGaming]

@CriticalGaming are you still going for Platinums on all these? If so, which has been the easiest, toughest, most annoying, etc.

Fuck Dark Souls 3's platinum. Fuck it in the ass.

Bloodborne is the easiest platinum.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Fuck Dark Souls 3's platinum. Fuck it in the ass.

Bloodborne is the easiest platinum.

I’d personally say DkS1 was but that’s mostly because of the grind and penalties in some of the chalice dungeons.

 

[CriticalGaming]

I’d personally say DkS1 was but that’s mostly because of the grind and penalties in some of the chalice dungeons.

You can speed run the platinum in 3 hours with a guide and a little glitch abusing. It's pretty simple.

Legit it might be more of a pain in the ass though.