Mar-A-Lago Raid

[Agema]

As suspected, the redacted affidavit is pretty useless. Trump's little fishing expedition to get proof its Jared squealing on him came back with little catch.

If it was Jared that squealed on him, that's delicious. Jared got Trump to give him important jobs and pardon daddy, and then promptly repays Trump by dobbing him in to the FBI.

But that's the thing about Trump: he insists on utter loyalty, but that's mostly just so that he can get away with his cheating, lying and lawbreaking, and to remain loyal to Trump means fair chance you'll be dragged down with him.

 

[tstorm823]

Ah, so is that your argument now? His actions were corrupt beyond your ability to further defend, but it's okay because the law is a bit vague?

No, you're being a bit vague. The articles of impeachment were much more specific. They were impeaching him for soliciting interference in the 2020 election, and making security assistance contingent on that interference. The first of those claims is difficult to believe after seeing the evidence retrieved from Parnas, demonstrating that it was Ukrainians trying to court Trump and hitting a brick wall for like a year and a half. The second claim, we can see from the messages submitted by Volker, is based almost entirely on the news saying so after the whistleblower report. Nobody in Trump's camp can be shown tying those things together, or ever telling the Ukrainians there was a freeze, until after the news published it.

You are being vague to avoid defending the specifics.

 

[SilentPony]

If it was Jared that squealed on him, that's delicious. Jared got Trump to give him important jobs and pardon daddy, and then promptly repays Trump by dobbing him in to the FBI.

But that's the thing about Trump: he insists on utter loyalty, but that's mostly just so that he can get away with his cheating, lying and lawbreaking, and to remain loyal to Trump means fair chance you'll be dragged down with him.

Its either him or Ivanka, because they're the only ones with something left to protect outside of Trump. His ex-wives are getting knocked off suspiciously right before their NDAs expire, Melania will just take Baron back to Russia when the divorce is finalized, Don jr. is literally posting about his dad's big black cock on Twitter and Eric is too mentally handicapped to know what's going on. And I think the other daughter is disowned for not letting daddy feel her up for her sweet 16.
Ivanka and Jared are the only ones with even a chance of coming out of this intact, so any deal they can make, they're making it.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Don jr. is literally posting about his dad's big black cock on Twitter

Jesus Geraldo Christ. I had to double-check to make sure that wasn't The Onion. How fucked-up a family is this?!

 

[Silvanus]

No, you're being a bit vague. The articles of impeachment were much more specific. They were impeaching him for soliciting interference in the 2020 election, and making security assistance contingent on that interference. The first of those claims is difficult to believe after seeing the evidence retrieved from Parnas, demonstrating that it was Ukrainians trying to court Trump and hitting a brick wall for like a year and a half.

Is this why the Trump administration made the Biden investigation a precondition for holding talks with Zelensky, and for arranging a White House visit? Is it the Ukrainians acting as the driving force behind those inducements, too? Give it a rest.

If you stretch credulity beyond breaking point, you can claim that he wasn't intentionally holding back security assistance. I mean, the timings and statements given are shady to the point where I'd say you're already being a patsy to say so, but fine, there's no smoking gun.

But to say he wasn't even soliciting interference at all, despite constantly and publicly pushing the Ukrainian gov to investigate this utter nonsense, and holding talks and visits over their heads as carrots-- it's just not a goddamn serious proposition that he wasn't.

 

[SilentPony]

Jesus Geraldo Christ. I had to double-check to make sure that wasn't The Onion. How fucked-up a family is this?!

I mean we're talking about a dude who openly, proudly and publicly said the #1 activity he and his daughter have in common is sex. We're talking about a man who proudly says he'd date his daughter if he could. We're talking about a man who tells little girls to come back in a few years when they have tits. We're talking about a family that sees the "incest" tab on PornHub and thinks its unrealistic everyone is a "step" daughter and "step" sister. We're talking about a dude who ran a women's beauty pageant fraud charity for decades so he could walk in on 17 and 18 year old girls changing.
We're talking about a dude with a Fast Pass to Epstine's Child Rape Plane.

And he's beloved by his base, who finally see a man who believes in proper Christian values.

 

[SilentPony]

So the Trump secret documents reportedly have intel sources and intel gathering methods in them:

Classified Material on Human Intelligence Sources Helped Trigger Alarm (Published 2022)

Documents related to the work of clandestine sources are some of the most sensitive and protected in the government. F.B.I. agents found some in boxes retrieved from Donald J. Trump’s home.

www.nytimes.com

I wonder if that had ANYTHING to do with the CIA reporting last year an unusually high number of intel agents in foreign governments being killed, arrested, or compromised:

'Unusual' cable specifies that dozens of CIA informants have been arrested, killed in recent years

The latest Speed Read,/speed-reads,,speed-reads, breaking news, comment, reviews and features from the experts at The Week

theweek.com

But Trump wouldn't sell national secrets to foreign governments. That's so not him. Say what you will about Donald Trump, the man has a firm moral code and can't be bought for any price.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

But Trump wouldn't sell national secrets to foreign governments. That's so not him. Say what you will about Donald Trump, the man has a firm moral code and can't be bought for any price.

Trump has openly stated that he doesn't like spies, even our own. He opined that they could damage his relationship with other world leaders. His ego couldn't handle the idea that he, the "ultimate dealmaker", couldn't get everyone else in the world to be on-the-level with him. (And his overwhelming paranoia probably brought him to believe that, unless they were under his direct and constant control, they would turn against him.)

 

[Worgen]

 

[Silvanus]

I still can't see it mattering. The highest court in the land is in the pocket of a party dead-set on protecting him for political reasons. Certain people are practically above the law.

Why pretend that the law cannot be swept aside by entrenched political operatives handed ultimate judicial authority over these matters?

 

[Worgen]

I still can't see it mattering. The highest court in the land is in the pocket of a party dead-set on protecting him for political reasons. Certain people are practically above the law.

Pretending that the law might catch up with such people is self-defeating, and serves to give the shattered credibility of the system respect it doesn't deserve.

Well, if it does go to the supreme court they really only have the option to treat it as valid and not just pass things off since there is nothing more scary to an authority then saying something and no one pays attention or does what you command and faith in the supreme court is already near the lowest its ever been if not the lowest. They would have to do something that is at best non-partisan.

 

[SilentPony]

Well, if it does go to the supreme court they really only have the option to treat it as valid and not just pass things off since there is nothing more scary to an authority then saying something and no one pays attention or does what you command and faith in the supreme court is already near the lowest its ever been if not the lowest. They would have to do something that is at best non-partisan.

To be fair, that's assuming the supreme court cares. They're already on the court for life, and they openly support one party over another, and most of them are white Christian fundamentalists or openly totalitarian.
Remember the rule of law is that the only crime is to be a Democrat. This supreme court wouldn't hesitate to rule in Trump's favor, and then whatever retaliatory "crimes" Biden is brought up on when Trump steals the next election, the supreme court will be there to say no president is above the law! Because the objective is power for power's sake.

 

[Silvanus]

Well, if it does go to the supreme court they really only have the option to treat it as valid and not just pass things off since there is nothing more scary to an authority then saying something and no one pays attention or does what you command and faith in the supreme court is already near the lowest its ever been if not the lowest. They would have to do something that is at best non-partisan.

I don't see why. If it reached a lower court, it would get appealed and appealed until it reached the Supreme Court, at which point the Justices would come up with whatever flimsy legal justification got him off the hook. They'd continue to act for all the world like they considered it impartially, Trump would get off free, and the US would continue circling the bowl.

 

[Worgen]

To be fair, that's assuming the supreme court cares. They're already on the court for life, and they openly support one party over another, and most of them are white Christian fundamentalists or openly totalitarian.
Remember the rule of law is that the only crime is to be a Democrat. This supreme court wouldn't hesitate to rule in Trump's favor, and then whatever retaliatory "crimes" Biden is brought up on when Trump steals the next election, the supreme court will be there to say no president is above the law! Because the objective is power for power's sake.

I don't think so. Really before Roe, most of its rulings hadn't been great, but hadn't been anywhere near as bad as they could be all things considered. Plus we have already seen the court rule against Trump's efforts to keep documents from the September 6th committee... with the exception of Clarence who really seems to want a king. Not to mention that currently we have more talk about packing the courts then we have had since like the 1930s. I don't think they would risk the court over trump.

 

[Worgen]

I don't see why. If it reached a lower court, it would get appealed and appealed until it reached the Supreme Court, at which point the Justices would come up with whatever flimsy legal justification got him off the hook. They'd continue to act for all the world like they considered it impartially, Trump would get off free, and the US would continue circling the bowl.

If they did that then why didn't they rule in his favor for suppressing documents from the September 6th committee? They have already had opportunities to help trump and not done it.

 

[tstorm823]

Is this why the Trump administration made the Biden investigation a precondition for holding talks with Zelensky, and for arranging a White House visit? Is it the Ukrainians acting as the driving force behind those inducements, too? Give it a rest.

Do you read the things you post? Seriously, did you get past the headline on either of those?

"Ukrainian officials were asking for a meeting with Trump for along time. As I remember, it was a clear fact that Trump wants to meet only if Biden case will be included,” said Serhiy Leshchenko

A well-known reformer, when Zelenskiy was elected in April, Leshchenko advised his team during the transition. But since at least May, the administration began distancing itself from him reportedly because of concerns about being seen as too close to him while he was attracting criticism from Giuliani.

Leshchenko on Thursday sought to back track his comments, telling ABC News that he did not know if officials had viewed discussing Biden as a precondition for a meeting and that he had meant it was just obvious that Trump had wanted to talk about it.

That guy claimed it was definitely a precondition, months after Zelensky cut him off, and shortly before he recanted the claim.

And then the other source:

“Heard from White House – assuming President Z convinces trump he will investigate / ‘get to the bottom of what happened’ in 2016, we will nail down date for a visit to Washington,” former U.S. special representative for Ukraine negotiations Kurt Volker wrote to the top Zelenskiy aide July 25, just before Trump spoke by phone to Zelenskiy.

That.... isn't talking about Biden. And prior to that specific message, they referenced the "Ukraine/Russia dynamic". They're talking about investigating Russian interference in the 2016 election. And like, if you check the transcript of the call, that is precisely the investigation Trump brings up.

Trump: I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike… that whole nonsense ended with a very poor performance by a man named Robert Mueller, an incompetent performance, but they say a lot of it started with Ukraine. Whatever you can do, it’s very important that you do it if that’s possible.

Zelensky: Yes it is very important for me and everything that you just mentioned earlier... I would also like and hope to see him having your trust and your confidence and have personal relations with you so we can cooperate even more so. I will personally tell you that one of my assistants spoke with Mr. Giuliani just recently and we are hoping very much that Mr. Giuliani will be able to travel to Ukraine and we will meet once he comes to Ukraine... in addition to that investigation, I guarantee as the President of Ukraine that all the investigations will be done openly and candidly.

Trump asks him to investigate Ukraine's potential involvement in 2016 election interference, Zelensky brings up Giuliani and the idea of investigations beyond what Trump asked about.

So now, instead of Trump withholding military assistance if Zelensky doesn't trash Biden, we are talking about Trump withholding a visit to the White House if Zelensky doesn't look into the actions of Ukrainian nationals potentially trying to influence the US election in 2016. Yeah, that's not abuse of power. That a reasonable thing. If literally any other president withheld an invite to a foreign power on the basis of them trying to meddle our election, you'd see no issue.

 

[Silvanus]

That guy claimed it was definitely a precondition, months after Zelensky cut him off, and shortly before he recanted the claim.

Yes, we already know you'll find a reason to dismiss it. How many former officials are now on the 'pfft why should we trust that guy' list?

That.... isn't talking about Biden. And prior to that specific message, they referenced the "Ukraine/Russia dynamic". They're talking about investigating Russian interference in the 2016 election. And like, if you check the transcript of the call, that is precisely the investigation Trump brings up.

I love that you'll accuse me of reading no further than the headline, and then fail to get as far as the relevant part yourself;

“We intend to initiate and complete a transparent and unbiased investigation of all available facts and episodes, including those involving Burisma and the 2016 U.S. elections,” Volker and Sondland agreed that the Ukrainian president should say."

 

[tstorm823]

Yes, we already know you'll find a reason to dismiss it.

Not even the man who made the claim stands by it. Why do you?

I love that you'll accuse me of reading no further than the headline, and then fail to get as far as the relevant part yourself;

You have no idea where that fits in the timeline, do you? That comment came after they already agreed to the visit and were planning the dates, and those topics to make a statement on weren't given to Ukraine, they were volunteered by Andrey Yermak, Zelensky's advisor.

 

[Gordon_4]

Jesus H. Christ, they're quoting Richard Nixon as their defence and this is not an episode of the Simpsons or a Family Guy cutaway.

Also some of the comments on that video…..I’m starting to think the procedures for accessing and storage of confidential material that I’ve been familiar with are perhaps unique in the world.

 

[Silvanus]

Not even the man who made the claim stands by it. Why do you?

Because it fits with an enormous pile of established behaviour.

You have no idea where that fits in the timeline, do you? That comment came after they already agreed to the visit and were planning the dates, and those topics to make a statement on weren't given to Ukraine, they were volunteered by Andrey Yermak, Zelensky's advisor.

I love that you think this makes a difference.