Forespoken Demo Impressions - Forget it

[BrawlMan]

think this is a racist and sexist attitude, because im implied that nobody can write characters outside their race/gender which is fucking gross. Good character writing is about portraying a part of the human condition within the circumstances of the story and world, gender and race do not apply.

Yes, yes, that's all well and good, but total misfire and a complete misunderstanding still happens (like what just happened now with this game). And what was stated ain't exactly sexist or racist depending on how it's done or in the case of context. It still doesn't hurt to have an editor, a consultant/culture expert, or have somebody look this stuff up to see, if they're accurate or not and what's culturally appropriate. There's nothing wrong with checking and learning on not to make the same mistakes the previous writers did.

This is especially true in fantasy worlds where race and genders are anything the author imagines with or without connection to real-world trappings.

1. That is it's usually more of a gray area.
2. It's usually a lot easier, when you don't have to worry about real world connections unless there's some attempt or parallel without using the actual real world. Once again, it depends on the work of fiction at hand, but can usually get more complicated than that.

It is clickbait because of the race baiting in the title. Why couldn't the article title be, "Forespoken's failings are rooted in a cast of terrible characters." Or something along those lines. By specifically stating the race of the lead character when it's entirely unnecessary is clickbait

It ain't exactly clickbait when it's the truth and more so. You don't like what the writer said, too bad. The truth hurts. I don't know much about her, but I can clearly see where she's coming from. Besides, hers ain't even a worse when it comes to clickbaiting. At least she bothers to mention and back up her other arguments about what other crappy things are in the game. At least she mentions the other side characters, why they are poorly written. At least she backs up why the duo doesn't connect with the audience and both come off as completely unsympathetic.

We have a black female writer that just wants a better representation of her gender and race. I don't blame her for being upset and listing her complaints. This isn't just a person looking for attention and creating drama. You don't like it, not my problem.

And like I said before, I would happily give her a copy of some of the games I mentioned so she can at least have something good. Death Loop happened and everything, but more needs to be done. There's nothing wrong with going further, but effort has to be put into it. I'm not giving all the credit to DK either, but I am more than happy to add to the list of the games that gets it right for story and writing at least.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I think this is a racist and sexist attitude, because im implied that nobody can write characters outside their race/gender which is fucking gross. Good character writing is about portraying a part of the human condition within the circumstances of the story and world, gender and race do not apply.

The idea that people want to make a claim that you can't write outside of your personal spectrum just propagates racist and sexist ideals. The ONLY exception is if you are writing something in the attempt to be culturally accurate. But in the universe of fiction, the race/gender of your characters do not and should not matter (we are all supposed to be equal right) and what instead matters is the core of the characters you're writing, their experiences and how they handle the situations around them.

This is especially true in fantasy worlds where race and genders are anything the author imagines with or without connection to real-world trappings.



It is clickbait because of the race baiting in the title. Why couldn't the article title be, "Forespoken's failings are rooted in a cast of terrible characters." Or something along those lines. By specifically stating the race of the lead character when it's entirely unnecessary is clickbait.

Fey was purposefully, conscientiously made a black female character by the lead designers. If it’s sexist/racist to think POC can’t be written by non POC, then wtf is not having any POC on your writing staff when your game is centered on a black character called? It doesn’t mean that black writers would’ve by default written a better story, but when the story sucks in no small part due to the usual stereotypical bs it’s not unreasonable to point the finger at a non POC writing staff.

 

[CriticalGaming]

If it’s sexist/racist to think POC can’t be written by non POC, then wtf is not having any POC on your writing staff when your game is centered on a black character called?

It's called you hired writers.

The question you should ask is if the designers wanted Frey to be PoC then why? Sales? Pandering? Genuinely a story to tell?

I don't really think it's fair to point at a game's bad writing and correlate the writers to the color of the MC. Those aren't necessarily related things. It's easy for journalists and people after the fact to find a pattern and try to reason that "Oh game failed because nobody on the team was PoC" and blame that. But it doesn't mean it's true, it just means you saw a Political thing you can latch onto and blame.

Correlation does not equal causation. X does not mean Y. Etc.

I will admit that there is a drastic and sad level of lack of self awareness in the production of this game, because the writers are just one level. They write the story, but someone else has to approve that shit. The lead designers also shape what they want the writers to write about. So these departments don't exist separately of each other, it all overlaps and ties together so you'd think that someone SOMEWHERE on the team would point this dumb shit out. But nobody did, maybe because a lot of work was done in Japan and they don't think about that kind of thing so they never brought it up, I dunno.

It's all just jumping to conclusions though, and as Yahtzee once said about Capcom "I don't think the developers are racist, they're just idiots."

 

[BrawlMan]

It's called you hired writers.

It's called hiring good writers at that.

don't really think it's fair to point at a game's bad writing and correlate the writers to the color of the MC. Those aren't necessarily related things. It's easy for journalists and people after the fact to find a pattern and try to reason that "Oh game failed because nobody on the team was PoC" and blame that. But it doesn't mean it's true, it just means you saw a Political thing you can latch onto and blame.

Still doesn't change the fact that there's a huge misfire and the writers thought they knew better than they realized. It wasn't the only reason that failed, but it failed on a narrative and character level, because similar to Velma, we have a case of the writer or writers smelling their own farts and thinking they are clever. When in reality, it's the same boring crap we seen time and time and again, but they hype themselves up to the next best thing or edgy. They made the same mistake of other productions have made in gaming or film time and time again. Not learning a damn thing.

It's all just jumping to conclusions though, and as Yahtzee once said about Capcom "I don't think the developers are racist, they're just idiots."

Not much of a jump when the evidence is clear as day. I'm not saying all the writers are complete racists or bigoted buttholes, but they assumed that they can do better or knew how to write a female character that is a person of color. They lack perspective. Here's an important lesson: you don't turn her into a big a total jackass and expect everything to be fine and honky-dory with no consequences! There's nothing wrong with having a character as a jerk, but if you want them to succeed or be better with that intention, you have to do it right. They failed on all accounts. They fucked up hard; end of story. Now the important thing is, are they going to learn from this? Is anybody else in games writing going to learn for this and not try to put water under the bridge, forgetting about it and pretend it never happened, only to make the same mistake again?

As for Capcom, they actually learned from their mistake, for one. Two: they didn't have over hyped marketing proclaiming they have this strong black woman that is going to change the game. Sheva was advertised, but just as someone who wanted to help Chris stop Wesker and later save Jill. Sheva is actually a well written character. I can't say the same for Fey.

 

[Piscian]

*siigh*
Ok I'll weigh in. I'm white, Like white as shit hungarian, but I grew up in Smoketown Louisville Metro next to the jackson street projects. Literally as it sounds in a historical black servants quarters neighborhood. My first two girlfriends were black, kindergarten BF was black etc etc. That doesn't make me an authority on black culture or black identity because an Nigerian in Louisville would have a completely different cultural identity than an AA in louisville which would likely have a completely different identity than a POC in San Francisco or Brazil.

I watched about 10 minutes of Forsaken and I'll say this - If you just played the audio and I couldn't see the screen this character is not "city black", they sound white or maybe a hispanic mix, but worse they sound kinda robotic. Like somebody wrote lines for a character that hasn't been developed yet.

Personally I don't think you need a POC of color to write POC, as it also depends on background. I worked with white as fuck black guys who were aghast when I told them stories of growing up in the ghetto. Everybody loves "Michonne", written by my fellow white kentuckian Robert Kirtkman.

Where the problem lies is character development and its the most important part of a story driven narrative. If you're going to write a city criminal black girl whos going through some shit you don't have to be a "city criminal black girl whos going through some shit", but you do need to do research, character studies, reach out and touch that character as the story is being written and research again how folks of that demographic might act. Even with the scant few minutes I watched I was bored and detached from this character. I can't imagine how much worse it must get.

I guess I only take issue with the "you must hire POC to write POC.", That rings false. Its funny I was just talking about "Bodies. Bodies. Bodies" and theres some really funny bits about the black girls getting outed as suburban rich kids claiming diversity. I would not trust some upscale black girl from Berkley to write this character anymore than I'd trust myself. I do concur, you can't lose by bringing in testers or commentators into the project from that kind of background. I'm definitely not saying " DONT HIRE POC" or any of that shit, Im just saying everything is contextual. In closing -

 

[BrawlMan]

watched about 10 minutes of Forsaken and I'll say this - If you just played the audio and I couldn't see the screen this character is not "city black", they sound white or maybe a hispanic mix, but worse they sound kinda robotic. Like somebody wrote lines for a character that hasn't been developed yet.

That's about the only other positive I can give to Fey.

*siigh*
Ok I'll weigh in. I'm white, Like white as shit hungarian, but I grew up in Smoketown Louisville Metro next to the jackson street projects. Literally as it sounds in a historical black servants quarters neighborhood. My first two girlfriends were black, kindergarten BF was black etc etc. That doesn't make me an authority on black culture or black identity because an Nigerian in Louisville would have a completely different cultural identity than an AA in louisville which would likely have a completely different identity than a POC in San Francisco or Brazil.

I watched about 10 minutes of Forsaken and I'll say this - If you just played the audio and I couldn't see the screen this character is not "city black", they sound white or maybe a hispanic mix, but worse they sound kinda robotic. Like somebody wrote lines for a character that hasn't been developed yet.

Personally I don't think you need a POC of color to write POC, as it also depends on background. I worked with white as fuck black guys who were aghast when I told them stories of growing up in the ghetto. Everybody loves "Michonne", written by my fellow white kentuckian Robert Kirtkman.

Where the problem lies is character development and its the most important part of a story driven narrative. If you're going to write a city criminal black girl whos going through some shit you don't have to be a "city criminal black girl whos going through some shit", but you do need to do research, character studies, reach out and touch that character as the story is being written and research again how folks of that demographic might act. Even with the scant few minutes I watched I was bored and detached from this character. I can't imagine how much worse it must get.

I guess I only take issue with the "you must hire POC to write POC.", That rings false. Its funny I was just talking about "Bodies. Bodies. Bodies" and theres some really funny bits about the black girls getting outed as suburban rich kids claiming diversity. I would not trust some upscale black girl from Berkley to write this character anymore than I'd trust myself. I do concur, you can't lose by bringing in testers or commentators into the project from that kind of background. I'm definitely not saying " DONT HIRE POC" or any of that shit, Im just saying everything is contextual. In closing -

At least you have actual understanding and perspective than any of the writers ever did.

 

[CriticalGaming]

I beat the game, and I wish I could have those 30 hours of my life back. I'd rather play Saint's Row than this because at least that was bad in a funny way.

 

[BrawlMan]

I beat the game, and I wish I could have those 30 hours of my life back. I'd rather play Saint's Row than this because at least that was bad in a funny way.

Get to Hi-Fi Rush now . Then after that, Wanted: Dead comes out next week. You might want to wait on reviews first for Wanted: Dead.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Get to Hi-Fi Rush now . Then after that, Wanted: Dead comes out next week. You might want to wait on reviews first for Wanted: Dead.

I gotta finish Dead Space now and then Hogwarts Legacy.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Forspoken Actress Says She’s Isn’t Bothered By The Online Discourse, And More Power To Her

Ella Balinska says she’s proud of her performance as Frey because she’s fulfilling a childhood dream

kotaku.com

Saw this and actually pleasantly surprised to see the actress not shrieking about racism or some shit as to why her game sucks. Good on her for just being a normal person and enjoying the work she did.

 

[BrawlMan]

Forspoken Actress Says She’s Isn’t Bothered By The Online Discourse, And More Power To Her

Ella Balinska says she’s proud of her performance as Frey because she’s fulfilling a childhood dream

kotaku.com

Saw this and actually pleasantly surprised to see the actress not shrieking about racism or some shit as to why her game sucks. Good on her for just being a normal person and enjoying the work she did.

I wouldn't expect anything less. I don't know much about her, but I do know Balinska is a good woman and does whatever job like a champ.

 

[meiam]

Unless she was part of the writing team, she got nothing to be ashamed of, she did her job just fine afaik. That being said, why bother spending he money on hiring a minor celebrity? Did the game sell even a single additional copy because the main character was modeled after her rather than making up the model?

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

Beat the first Tanta yesterday. Like I said, the combat and movement are quite good and the story and general writing are good enough, depending on how high your tolerance for some occasionally really smarmy banter is. I stand by what I said. Frey is a cutie. Which is one of the main factors that keeps me going, if I'm being perfectly honest.

The issue is, the "meat" of the gameplay is pretty much the epitome of the "Single Player MMO" school of designing an open world. You zoom through what's a very large world, which certainly does offer some nice vistas, but seeing how it's effectively a post apocalyptic wasteland outside of the hub city, there aren't really any quests or character interactions or conversations outside of the actual plot beats. Just some arcadey combat encounters and racing challenges, with the occasional mini dungeon that has additional combat encounters. Sometimes, you get a line of flavourtext or two, but that's all you get.

I make a point of meeting every game at its own terms, which is why I've been wondering whether maybe it's not trying to be an open world RPG in the conventional sense and more of a wide linear sort of affair, something maybe a bit closer to something like Shadow of the Colossus or Death Stranding where the open world is mainly just there to provide a sense of scale for the journey, but if that was what they're going, I don't see why there's so much samey optional busywork there to distract you from that journey.

I don't know, I keep thinking, they have this really big and pretty good looking open world full of abandoned villages and fortresses and cities, and it makes me think how much more engaging this game would be if it weren't postapocalyptic and all those settlements had actual NPC's and merchants and quests, you know, like most other open world rpgs. Instead of just using them as backdropf for not especially varied optional combat encounters. I just wish all those combat and parkour mechanics were in a better game, you know?

 

[BrawlMan]

The issue is, the "meat" of the gameplay is pretty much the epitome of the "Single Player MMO" school of designing an open world.

The reason for that is that the game is basically a modified version of FFXV's combat. And that game itself, was built off the backbone of FF XIV. Forspoken has a significant better combat system over XV. It's too bad they went for the usual everything needs to be big, open, and apocalyptic.

 

[meiam]

I don't know, I keep thinking, they have this really big and pretty good looking open world full of abandoned villages and fortresses and cities, and it makes me think how much more engaging this game would be if it weren't postapocalyptic and all those settlements had actual NPC's and merchants and quests, you know, like most other open world rpgs. Instead of just using them as backdropf for not especially varied optional combat encounters. I just wish all those combat and parkour mechanics were in a better game, you know?

I really feel like the game was supposed to be much grander in scale with the world filled with NPC and such and partway trough they decided to severely cut down on the content since the game was apparently in development for quite awhile.

 

[CriticalGaming]

I really feel like the game was supposed to be much grander in scale with the world filled with NPC and such and partway trough they decided to severely cut down on the content since the game was apparently in development for quite awhile.

This is really apparent after you beat the second tanta and the game just rushes you to the end.

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

Hi-Fi Rush
Started this on my Steam Deck and got through the tutorial and first boss, the big lady.
It's ok so far, I'm iffy on the whole rhythm combat. One the one hand, it's nice that your attack "always lands on the beat," whatever that means, so it's easy to get into a combat flow. The flip side is that it's so easy so far, though I'm sure at the end it will be impossible because that's how games work. I'm in Normal mode as I always do for a new game so maybe I'll jack up the difficulty and see what happens. Especially since I don't care about the grade I get and I'm just interested in progressing.
The presentation and animations and stuff and of course the music is very nice.

Dead Space remake
Bought a physical copy but it didn't work. And now I remember why I stopped doing that for, like, 20 years, lol. So while I'm waiting for my replacement...

Witcher 3
This will definitely be my last play-through. The new update actually makes the game a lot easier by mid-game. For one thing, upgrading sklll points has been made easier, and I also think they award more XP because I'm at the end of the main campaign and I'm at level 36 already. In previous play-throughs I'd be level 33 or 34 max.
I also started playing with ray tracking on and, I dunno, it's nice I guess, but not always great? Or I don't know if it's that or other upgrades.

So the quest where you travel to other worlds with Avallach looked amazing. That first desert world with the crab things? Gorgeous!
But then there's the part you can have a snow fight with Ciri and the light or whatever makes Geralt look blonde, lol. So weird.

 

[BrawlMan]

Hi-Fi Rush
Started this on my Steam Deck and got through the tutorial and first boss, the big lady.
It's ok so far, I'm iffy on the whole rhythm combat. One the one hand, it's nice that your attack "always lands on the beat," whatever that means, so it's easy to get into a combat flow. The flip side is that it's so easy so far, though I'm sure at the end it will be impossible because that's how games work. I'm in Normal mode as I always do for a new game so maybe I'll jack up the difficulty and see what happens. Especially since I don't care about the grade I get and I'm just interested in progressing.
The presentation and animations and stuff and of course the music is very nice.

Dead Space remake
Bought a physical copy but it didn't work. And now I remember why I stopped doing that for, like, 20 years, lol. So while I'm waiting for my replacement...

Witcher 3
This will definitely be my last play-through. The new update actually makes the game a lot easier by mid-game. For one thing, upgrading sklll points has been made easier, and I also think they award more XP because I'm at the end of the main campaign and I'm at level 36 already. In previous play-throughs I'd be level 33 or 34 max.
I also started playing with ray tracking on and, I dunno, it's nice I guess, but not always great? Or I don't know if it's that or other upgrades.

So the quest where you travel to other worlds with Avallach looked amazing. That first desert world with the crab things? Gorgeous!
But then there's the part you can have a snow fight with Ciri and the light or whatever makes Geralt look blonde, lol. So weird.

I think you meant to put this on the currently playing thread. Glad you like HF. Just a heads up, jacking up to the harder difficulties will make timing stricter for the combos and parrying. It's really noticeable, if you start on hard mode.

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

I think you meant to put this on the currently playing thread. Glad you like HF. Just a heads up, jacking up to the heart of difficulty will make timing stricter for the combos and parrying. It's really noticeable, if you start on hard mode.

Yes you're right, sorry

 

[BrawlMan]

Yes you're right, sorry

No need for the apologies. It happens. I posted in the wrong thread a couple of times as well.