Hogwarts Legacy - Whimsical Wizardry

Bedinsis

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What? I have no idea what you're going on about. US as in USA. I made that pretty clear.
A quick trip to Wikipedia suggests: "Skinhead" is often used interchangeably with "neo-Nazi", even though it you look at the subculture there are plenty of groupings that are most certainly not racists nor Neo-Nazis.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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What? I have no idea what you're going on about. US as in USA. I made that pretty clear.
Not all Skinheads are racist, not even in the US. Hell, the largest group/'organisation' of anti-racist Skinheads, SHARP (SkinHeads Against Racial Prejudice) was started in in NYC in the late 80s.

Yeah, I know, there always seem to be a lot of skinheads who are of the neo-nazi dickbag variety. Fucken idiots, back when Skinheads started out they were massively influenced by Jamaican Rude Boy culture.
 
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Specter Von Baren

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Dude, you were never an ally. Quit with the concern trolling.
?????????????? When did I claim I was? WTF gaslighting is this?
Gyrobot is really the only one doing this. Be it streamers in general or V-Tubers just playing game and not being assholes. The rest weren't defending this shit.
Mysterious kept trying to make my criticism of the harassers out to be me hating trans people and Terminal made THIS demand.

Terminal.jpg

Let's not memory hole this stuff quite yet.
 

Hawki

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Because the House Elves naturally love serving, in short.

But that in-universe explanation has some uncomfortable implications, if we're to look at analogues out-of-universe.
I've already listed the analogues to the house elves. To go down the "house elves are slaves" argument is to deliberately ignore the analogues being used, and conjure up new analogues.

Do correct me if I'm wrong, but in most folklore, don't house spirits expect to be repaid for their effort with small offerings of food or similar or they leave? Harry Potter's house elves don't have that option. Not saying it's still not iffy. Just saying that Rowling wrote herself into a corner on that one.
News to me.

I mean, I left out milk and cookies for Santa, I never thought that Santa wouldn't deliver my presents if I didn't.

From 'The Elves and the Shoemaker' to the Daisy Meadows fairy series, fey creatures helping people "just because" is fairly common. So's the opposite, but that's usually down to malign intent rather than lack of repayment.

But it's beside the point. The most likely real-world inspirations for house elves are brownies and farfadets. The former would take food and drink, but would depart, insulted, if offered coin. The latter would depart if their master offered them clothes, insulted at the idea that their clothes needed replacing.

That's part of what really gets me with this. I know the phrase "we don't see things as they are, we see things as we are" is probably true, but the whole "house elves are slaves" thing, in the context of real-world analogues, requires people to ignore the real-world analogues and latch onto other analogues. Namely, an analogue in a world where human slavery is a thing, elf slavery isn't.
 
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Buyetyen

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?????????????? When did I claim I was? WTF gaslighting is this?
At least you're not hiding the fact that you don't give a shit about others. Moving right along.

But it's beside the point. The most likely real-world inspirations for house elves are brownies and farfadets. The former would take food and drink, but would depart, insulted, if offered coin. The latter would depart if their master offered them clothes, insulted at the idea that their clothes needed replacing.

That's part of what really gets me with this. I know the phrase "we don't see things as they are, we see things as we are" is probably true, but the whole "house elves are slaves" thing, in the context of real-world analogues, requires people to ignore the real-world analogues and latch onto other analogues. Namely, an analogue in a world where human slavery is a thing, elf slavery isn't.
So I ask again: what would you call a system that keeps an entire species in bondage with no cop on the beat to prevent abuse?
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Mysterious kept trying to make my criticism of the harassers out to be me hating trans people
Me pointing out a double standard doesn't automatically mean I think you hate trans people. Though I've apparently made tens of thousands of new enemies for trans people in doing so.
That's part of what really gets me with this. I know the phrase "we don't see things as they are, we see things as we are" is probably true, but the whole "house elves are slaves" thing, in the context of real-world analogues, requires people to ignore the real-world analogues and latch onto other analogues. Namely, an analogue in a world where human slavery is a thing, elf slavery isn't.
I mean, most of us are just latching on to the source media, which calls house elves slaves.
 
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Terminal Blue

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Antisemitism does exist but the majority seems to come from the Arab minority. Aside from that conspiracy theory circles as always. And of course the Neo-Nazis. Though it seems that some of them nowadays prefer jews to arabs. Probably because the Arabs are more and more visible and more foreign.
One thing I've learned from my own experience is that antisemitism is way, way more common than people tend to believe, but also tends to be extremely well-hidden. People, even people who are pretty open about other forms of racism, don't tend to advertise that they are anti-Semites, but they often are.

And that's because antisemitism serves a very important role in the racist worldview. It solves an obvious problem with the logic of racism. If you believe that certain races are inferior, that they just aren't as smart or competent as people like you, then why are you losing? Because in the grand scheme of things racists are losing. Most people, I think, are still racist to one degree or another, but things like scientific racism (which everyone used to accept as basically unquestioned truth) have been basically banished from serious research or discussion, and outspoken displays of racism are much, much less tolerated.

So who is responsible? Obviously, in a world where ideas were judged on merit racism should be winning, and that means someone has to be preventing that. There needs to be some active, countervailing force. It can't be the inferior races because, if they were winning, they wouldn't be inferior.

And this is where Jews come in. Persecution against Jews has never required them to be intellectually inferior, in fact many racial stereotypes hinge on the idea that Jews are unusually intelligent and cunning. The imagined inferiority of Jews is moral and spiritual, not intellectual. Jews are imagined to be capable of infiltrating and manipulating societies in a way inferior races wouldn't be. Jews, of course, would want to discredit the idea of racism, they would want inferior races and superior races to mix, because they stand to benefit from the weakening of those superior races through race-mixing. They provide the role of an intelligent, organized antagonist.

Anti-semitism explains why white people don't seem to work in what racists see as their own interests. Without it, the whole theory starts to fall apart.
 

Bedinsis

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Hello, and welcome to the middle of the thread.

View attachment 7949
This was post #454, roughly half this thread ago. Hrm.

Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations.
 

BrawlMan

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Not all Skinheads are racist,
I never said nor implied. I do know about the rest that you are talking about. Still an issue with the ones that are racist.
A quick trip to Wikipedia suggests: "Skinhead" is often used interchangeably with "neo-Nazi", even though it you look at the subculture there are plenty of groupings that are most certainly not racists nor Neo-Nazis.
I know.
 

Hawki

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...and both were lifelong wizards who grew up in the wizard culture which on the whole sees absolutely no issue with enslaving an entire species. There are plenty of cultures throughout history that have committed horrific acts as part of their cultural makeup and it's people think it's good because of not knowing any better, it doesn't mean those horrific acts are actually good.
Newsflash, those cultures enslaved other humans. We know how humans work, because we're all humans, and it's safe to assume that our human relatives didn't like being enslaved either.

House elves (yes, I'm sick of repeating this) aren't human. So it's silly to transplant human concepts of slavery onto a species that doesn't consider their situation as such.

Also, as for Ron and Hagrid, while they do have blindspots, first, they're not unopposed to prejudice (see their reactions to Malfoy's mudblood insult), second, they're arguably beside the point. Hermione tries to 'free' the house elves, regardless of their own wishes. After the series proper, she does go onto help house elves, but in a way that's respectful to what they actually want. I'm not sure how that's a bad moral.

It's like time traveling to before the Civil War and asking slave owners or even just people who lived in the South if slaves like being slaves. Chances are very high especially if you're talking to the slave owners that they will say that yes, slaves love being slaves. Most of them might even genuinely believe it, despite slaves constantly trying to escape because they've never known anything else and are so used to having slaves and depending on them that they'll twist any logic into knots if not outright ignore it to avoid admitting that something they've spent their life benefiting from is wrong, as people do.
And how many house elves are constantly trying to escape? How many house elves willingly take the 'outs' Hermione gives them?

A bad track record in the past doesn't change the fact that Hermione is completely right in this instance
If she's "right," then the book is presenting us false information.

The House Elves detest Hermione for trying to help them and don't want to be helped because they've been conditioned to think their situation is right. Even if the House Elves aren't being magically compelled to think being slaves is good and thus their opinions can't be considered valid and genuinely think that Hermione should stop because being slaves is good, that doesn't make them correct. Just because someone thinks something is good doesn't make it actually good.
Well that's incredibly arrogant.

"You, Frieza, get off the screen now and stop talking about videogames! I...what? No, I don't care what you have to say, I don't care if reading/gaming makes you happy, I know better than you! Go! Scat!"

Yes, there are real-world analogues to what you've said (e.g. domestic abuse), but imagine applying this to, I dunno, religion. Frankly, I think people are wasting their lives believing in supernatural entities, but if your Sunday mass (or equivalent) makes you happy, if it gives you a sense of community, if you derive genuine fulfillment from your belief and aren't hurting others, why should I stop you from doing that?

Hermione isn't "spectacularly wrong," the story treats her as though she's wrong, there's a massive gulf between the story deciding someone is wrong and that person actually being wrong.
That's a contortion though.

A story can decide that the "hero" committing murder of innocents, rape, genocide, or in Harry Potter's case slavery is right with any number of justifications, it doesn't make any of these things actually right.
Well first, none of what you've cited is what the books can be said to support - any attempts at murder, rape, genocide, are framed as bad.

Second, "slavery is right." Again, you're transplating real-world slavery into a situation with a fictional species that don't consider it slavery. By this logic, Pokemon is slavery, because regardless of how a pokemon might feel about the situation (pokemon can develop bonds with their trainers, and working with trainers makes them develop faster than if they were on their own), regardless of any in-universe context, the situation is bad.

If the house elves were humans, then yes, maybe you'd have a leg to stand on, but they're not, and operate by their own principles and values, so really, you're being just like Hermione in this case.

Probably the same reason why the vast majority of people can tell that water is wet without having to jump into a lake first, because it's blatantly obvious. The wizards use of House Elves very very incredibly obviously is slavery. Slavery is bad. The only way either of these two things could be more obvious is if Dobby had a flashing neon sign over his head saying "SLAVERY IS WRONG!!!" End of story.
Then we're at a crossroads, because everything you've said is a convolution of what's actually presented.

On the other hand, House Elves are significant figures throughout the Harry Potter books, we're given a very close look at what they are, how they live day to day, what their values are, and the books do make dealing with them in one manner or another a significant plot point on multiple occasions. We see that the House Elves are enslaved because that's what the books show us. We see examples of House Elves that do things against their own will because they are magically enslaved. We see that House Elves are capable of not wanting to be enslaved because we have examples of individuals that want to get out of said enslavement. In fact, we're introduced to the whole concept of House Elves in the first place showing us that they are enslaved and that enslavement is bad in the form of Dobby.
Yes, we see individual house elves where all of this applies, and see examples of house elves where this isn't the case as well.

By the end of the series, we can safely conclude that:

1: House elves are happy in their station, in general, and don't desire freedom.

2: Because of their nature, this leaves them open to the whims of their masters.

3: As what actually happens, the best thing to do is to respect the wishes of the house elves, while also giving them as many safeguards as possible.

The problem with the House Elves plot line is it then subsequently turns around and then contradicts everything shown up to that point by acting like the enslavement of House Elves is a good thing because it's in line with the wishes of the House Elves. An idea that quickly falls flat with any sort of scrutiny whatsoever.
Contradicts what? We see Dobby in Book 2, see the house elves in book 4, where it's established that Dobby is the exception. Where the potential for abuse is there (see Winky), but as a whole, the house elves are fine, and don't want Hermione interfering with them.

How is any of what I just said a contradiction?

You do realize you just contradicted yourself right? You admitted that religious texts and pseudo-science are a fantasy and thus works of fiction, then in the next breath said that you've never seen anyone hold up a work of fiction and use it as justification.
Really? You're playing semantics?

Fine.

1: Far as I'm concerned, all religious texts are fiction.

2: People have used religious texts to justify attrocities.

3: The people doing so believe the religious texts to be true.

4: In contrast, everyone on planet Earth knows that Harry Potter is fiction, that house elves aren't real, that slavery in the real world is bad.

You're basically coming at this from a similar perspective to those who claimed the HP books would turn kids into witches/wizards.

With the clothes thing Hermonie was trying for something akin to the Underground Railroad. Help the people who are slaves now rather than being concerned about changing slavery as an institution. An indirect result of the effort to free slaves was that several former slaves led the fight against slavery that ultimately led to the Civil War and the complete abolishment of slavery. Helping a people now led to helping to stop what was making them as a whole suffer in the first place.
That's one hell of a stretch. Even if the house elves were meant to be a slavery analogy, that's really stretching things making it like the Underground Railroad. FFS, it's not even taking place in the same country.

Also, Hermonie was trying to form an organization that would ultimately bring down the institution that is the slavery of the House Elves. It only fails because the narrative reads it as shortsighted and stupid for her to so much as try when it was anything but. So yes, the SPEW plot can be considered a story about institutional reform.
And I disagree, the SPEW plot is an example of Hermione's arrogance getting the better of her.
 

Hawki

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I wasn't talking about the media. Don't know what grand conclusion you assumed I was talking about.
Dude, I have no idea what the heck you're talking about. That, what? People intentionally misinterpret media to suit their own ends/views? Because if that's the case, you understand that's what the "house elves are slaves" argument is doing, right?

So what would you call keeping a sentient species in bondage?
Under normal circumstances? Slavery.

What would you call a situation where a species doesn't consider the situation slavery, where they find fulfillment in their circumstances, and where they resist any attempts to change their circumstances?

Okay a lot of your points are good but this one doesn’t wash. Hedwig and Crookshanks are animals and while that certainly makes them sentient they do not possess self awareness or the capacity for moralising. House Elves can speak; they can reason; they can think for themselves and they’re more than likely capable of creativity. But speaking is the big one: if Hedwig was able to say “Hey, let me out of this cage you fuckin’ nerd” to Harry then yeah that would change the tone of their relationship immensely.
Yes, you're right - if Hedwig demanded freedom, Harry should free her. If Dobby wanted freedom, the Malfoys should have freed him.

However, by your own statement, house elves can think for themselves, are sapient, and are, conspicuously, not doing anything like what you've not described. If people aren't asking for X, and reject my offers of X, why should I force X on them?
 

Buyetyen

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What would you call a situation where a species doesn't consider the situation slavery, where they find fulfillment in their circumstances, and where they resist any attempts to change their circumstances?
And the slaves in Gone with the Wind were portrayed as happy as well. Just because an author writes something does not make it good.

House elves (yes, I'm sick of repeating this) aren't human. So it's silly to transplant human concepts of slavery onto a species that doesn't consider their situation as such.
And that somehow makes exploitation okay? As long as the being you're exploiting isn't a human?
 
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Hawki

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That message would be fine and well if the books hadn't chosen to focus on a relationship so closely mirroring a real-world analogue. You can't really do that and expect people to completely disregard the parallels.
I've already cited the real-world analogues and parallels. The whole slavery argument requires ignoring those parallels, or at least, insisting that those parallels are academic.

The group doesn't need to be a stand-in for a real-world group in order for the situation to be an analogy.
That's highly debatable. It's like saying "slavery is an analogy for slavery" or "war is an analogy for war," or more broadly, anything in a work of fiction is, by definition, an analogy for something in the real world.

But again, let's look at the house elves. For them to be an analogy, you'd have to find a group of humans who liked being in servitude, and ignored all attempts to free themselves. I can't think of anything where that's the case.

Look at Mass Effect's Geth. They're not a direct stand-in for any real world group. Yet as soon as they begin to develop self-awareness, their situation immediately becomes a parallel for slavery, and we consider their situation through that lens.
Um, I'm assuming this is the royal "we," because no, I don't see the Morning War as a parallel for slavery. The Morning War is a parallel to concerns about AI overcoming their creators, which is a trope as old as time, but a trope nonetheless, and one that's important to the Mass Effect trilogy as a whole considering that the entire in-universe crux for the Reapers is the belief that synthetics will always turn on organics.

Can you use an AI uprising as an analogy for slavery? Absolutely. Is an AI uprising an analogy for slavery ipso facto? Hell no.

"Domestication" is the term used for training a non-sapient species to live in a domestic human setting, and to override its natural wild impulses in order to be a more suitable companion for humans. The only contexts I'm aware of it being applied to sapient creatures are either slavery or particularly weird BDSM, both of which are using the term to reduce the target to a non-sapient creature.
All true, but "slavery" doesn't really fit the house elves either. It's like saying ants are "enslaved" to their queen, for instance.
 

BrawlMan

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Dude, I have no idea what the heck you're talking about.
I already knew what I was talking about. I don't know what you are going on about. I think we're both went to the same conclusion, just said it in different ways. Leave it at that, cuz I am not doing this back and forth again.