Ukraine

[Absent]

I am pretty sure the Ukrainians don't desire a nuclear crisis at all, even if it gives their side good publicity.

I don't assume innocence or honesty from anyone, when it comes to war and information strategy. Russia is clearly the "bad guys" and Ukraine the "good guys" in this war (and I expect Ukraine to turn awful afterwards, as is often the case with victimized countries and populations), but in the day to day pragmatism of war, I don't expect anyone to be much hindered by ethics. During WW2, the Allies were the "good guys" and their means to victory were just as brutal and atrocious as the "bad guys". In Ukraine, the "good side" has no qualms about uranium-enriched ammunition, minefields or cluster bombs. And while I do rely on the western world's survey and analysis of the battleground, I skip Kiev's statements as routinely as I skip Russia's.

Whoever's victory is desired in a war (although I tend to desire one side's defeat more often than I desire the other side's victory), don't expect any "noble" or "fair" approach to warfare on any side. This has died with the European conquest of the Americas.

 

[Silvanus]

I don't assume innocence or honesty from anyone, when it comes to war and information strategy. Russia is clearly the "bad guys" and Ukraine the "good guys" in this war (and I expect Ukraine to turn awful afterwards, as is often the case with victimized countries and populations), but in the day to day pragmatism of war, I don't expect anyone to be much hindered by ethics. During WW2, the Allies were the "good guys" and their means to victory were just as brutal and atrocious as the "bad guys". In Ukraine, the "good side" has no qualms about uranium-enriched ammunition, minefields or cluster bombs. And while I do rely on the western world's survey and analysis of the battleground, I skip Kiev's statements as routinely as I skip Russia's.

Whoever's victory is desired in a war (although I tend to desire one side's defeat more often than I desire the other side's victory), don't expect any "noble" or "fair" approach to warfare on any side. This has died with the European conquest of the Americas.

Honesty is one thing. I think you'd be hard pressed to find military strategists or world leaders eager to nuke their own country. In Ukraine or Russia.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Honesty is one thing. I think you'd be hard pressed to find military strategists or world leaders eager to nuke their own country. In Ukraine or Russia.

Lots of open air nuclear device testing a few decades ago was deemed acceptable, though.

 

[Absent]

Lots of open air nuclear device testing a few decades ago was deemed acceptable, though.

To be fair, most nuclear devices are tested in "colonies", regions that are part of the country yet deemed sufficiently foreign, remote and subhuman to not provoke the outrage of "real people" (Papeete, Bikini Islands, Algerian desert, etc).

 

[Satinavian]

I don't assume innocence or honesty from anyone, when it comes to war and information strategy. Russia is clearly the "bad guys" and Ukraine the "good guys" in this war (and I expect Ukraine to turn awful afterwards, as is often the case with victimized countries and populations), but in the day to day pragmatism of war, I don't expect anyone to be much hindered by ethics. During WW2, the Allies were the "good guys" and their means to victory were just as brutal and atrocious as the "bad guys". In Ukraine, the "good side" has no qualms about uranium-enriched ammunition, minefields or cluster bombs. And while I do rely on the western world's survey and analysis of the battleground, I skip Kiev's statements as routinely as I skip Russia's.

It is not about good and evil.

It just makes no sense whatsoever for the Ukraine to blow up the plant. It is mostly their own territory that gets polluted, it makes their currently ongoing offensive harder and it destroys important assets. And for what ?

 

[Ag3ma]

I am pretty sure the Ukrainians don't desire a nuclear crisis at all, even if it gives their side good publicity.

Well, yes. If the Zaporizhzhia plant goes into meltdown, it doesn't matter who causes it, the biggest loser is Ukraine.

Russia could technically poison a load of territory Russia claims as its own, but surely we understand that by now the Russian regime doesn't give a crap. It could turn all of the Ukrainian oblasts it occupies into a barren wasteland for 1,000 years and it wouldn't care, so long as it got to own them. After all, for all that it makes a load of noise about Ukraine being part of Russia, in truth it thinks of Ukraine as a second-rate not-quite-Russia.

 

[CM156]

They are disguises. He is actually the whole of wagner.

Alpha Legion moment.

 

[Gergar12]

Russia will lose eventually if they don't get resupplied by China.

Ukraine's Tank Numbers Now Equal Russia's – Analysis - The Moscow Times

Ukraine and Russia's tank numbers are now roughly equal to one another's, Bloomberg reported Thursday, citing the Kiel Institute for the World Economy and the Oryx open-source analysis website.

www.themoscowtimes.com

Never in a million years would I expect this to happen when Russia fights a middle power. Against the US, and China sure, but not against Ukraine.

 

[Gergar12]

Naplam and Cluster bombs are based.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Naplam and Cluster bombs are based.

And Cenk is an idiot as fucking usual. Using any weapon on civilians without some pretty solid reasons is a war crime so banning weapons based purely on 'is it a war crime if we use it on civilians' would reduce militaries to using harsh language.

 

[CM156]

would reduce militaries to using harsh language.

Imagine if we fought wars that way.
Show up and yell about how you had sexual congress with the entire opposing military's mother last night.
All those kids who grew up playing COD finally can put their skills to use.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Imagine if we fought wars that way.

Australia would conquer the world.

 

[Terminal Blue]

And Cenk is an idiot as fucking usual. Using any weapon on civilians without some pretty solid reasons is a war crime so banning weapons based purely on 'is it a war crime if we use it on civilians' would reduce militaries to using harsh language.

The problem with cluster munitions is that there is absolutely no way to determine who they hit, or when. They can kill people on impact, but they can also kill people years later once the conflict in question is already over.

A cluster munition is basically a cannister full of little explosive submunitions which all have their own detonators. These detonators aren't exceptionally reliable and there are a very large number of them so a small but significant proportion will statistically fail to detonate and be left in the environment. Thus, you're left with a bunch of small, extremely hard to see bombs which might go off at any time, are fully capable of maiming or killing someone and are about the right size and shape that children might well mistake them for toys.

Of course, Russia and Ukraine have both used cluster munitions and Russia has used anti-personnel mines extensively, so there isn't really a moral high ground, but there's a reason why so many countries ban cluster munitions, and it's not because they are weapons and can kill people (I think most people do understand that's the point). It's because of who they kill, or more precisely, the fact that it's impossible to control who they kill.

 

[Dalisclock]

Russia will lose eventually if they don't get resupplied by China.

Ukraine's Tank Numbers Now Equal Russia's – Analysis - The Moscow Times

Ukraine and Russia's tank numbers are now roughly equal to one another's, Bloomberg reported Thursday, citing the Kiel Institute for the World Economy and the Oryx open-source analysis website.

www.themoscowtimes.com

Never in a million years would I expect this to happen when Russia fights a middle power. Against the US, and China sure, but not against Ukraine.

Honestly, I think even China resupplying them is just postponing the inevitable. China doesn't make tanks fast enough to replace them at the rate Russia is losing them and you know damn well China is charging them through the fucking nose for everything they sell to Russia.

The other problem is China isn't selling them tank crews, and every time Russia has a tank turret pop they lose a tank crew. A tank crew that might have been experienced, which means now they need to train another one to replace it. Or stick three dudes in a tank I guess and see what happens.

When the USN sunk four Japanese Carriers at the battle of Midway during WW2, it wasn't just hundreds of planes and 4 expensive aircraft carriers that were lost. It was hundreds of trained and experienced Japanese Navy Pilots that were lost, and that was the biggest blow of them all. It hurt them for the rest of the war and no doubt Russia is probably having a similar problem by now.

 

[Gergar12]

The problem with cluster munitions is that there is absolutely no way to determine who they hit, or when. They can kill people on impact, but they can also kill people years later once the conflict in question is already over.

A cluster munition is basically a cannister full of little explosive submunitions which all have their own detonators. These detonators aren't exceptionally reliable and there are a very large number of them so a small but significant proportion will statistically fail to detonate and be left in the environment. Thus, you're left with a bunch of small, extremely hard to see bombs which might go off at any time, are fully capable of maiming or killing someone and are about the right size and shape that children might well mistake them for toys.

Of course, Russia and Ukraine have both used cluster munitions and Russia has used anti-personnel mines extensively, so there isn't really a moral high ground, but there's a reason why so many countries ban cluster munitions, and it's not because they are weapons and can kill people (I think most people do understand that's the point). It's because of who they kill, or more precisely, the fact that it's impossible to control who they kill.

Use them on the minefields.

 

[Gergar12]

Honestly, I think even China resupplying them is just postponing the inevitable. China doesn't make tanks fast enough to replace them at the rate Russia is losing them and you know damn well China is charging them through the fucking nose for everything they sell to Russia.

The other problem is China isn't selling them tank crews, and every time Russia has a tank turret pop they lose a tank crew. A tank crew that might have been experienced, which means now they need to train another one to replace it. Or stick three dudes in a tank I guess and see what happens.

When the USN sunk four Japanese Carriers at the battle of Midway during WW2, it wasn't just hundreds of planes and 4 expensive aircraft carriers that were lost. It was hundreds of trained and experienced Japanese Navy Pilots that were lost, and that was the biggest blow of them all. It hurt them for the rest of the war and no doubt Russia is probably having a similar problem by now.

They could use drone tanks.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Guess I'll take a break from just waiting for you people to realize I'm correct.

An additional 10 direct photos of Wagner personnel sporting Nazi symbols on uniforms and material, in addition to the quotes and tattoos of 2 commanders already provided, constitutes far, far, far more than the measley shite you've provided-- which you described as an "avalanche".

are you for real? i've never described what I've personally posted in this thread as an avalanche. That is a description of what exists. AFU was literally posting the shit themselves on their twitter account. I've seen way more than ten instances of AFU Nazi symbols. Is it really that hard for you to find it yourself? By contrast, with NAFO trolls it seems like it's always the same few pictures when they want to deflect to Wagner. Meanwhile Mark Hamill talks to some Ukrainian drone pilots and they just happen to have a blood and soil flag prominently displayed in the background. But if it makes you feel any better, sure, you've probably posted more Nazi shit in this thread than I have. Good job.

As for your idea that the proper constitutional answer to an elected leader fleeing threats of assassination by far right paramilitaries is to reify the overthrow of the government, that seems like a view that probably doesn't make it over the border into your own country. Just a guess.

I'll put it differently.

You should not have bothered.

What you wrote is an argument from incredulity. A very, very long argument from incredulity. If you're going to leverage your incredulity to imagine a number of weird beliefs and then impute them to me, please at least do it briefly. Especially when you're inventing a guy to argue against, brevity is a supreme virtue. It's good even if you're writing something intelligent, though less necessary.

Anyway, Putin has a large number of awful views and the way he runs Russia is objectively just a lot worse than the entire time it was a Soviet republic. That doesn't make him wrong about NATO enlargement and encroachment nor about the 2014 coup in Ukraine. And he's far from the only one who highlighted that issue. Plenty of people have, from a lot of different places including people in the US diplomacy, intelligence, and defense establishments, famous journalists and whistleblowers, and so on. Your refusal to accept that NATO enlargement is a massive provocation given that NATO is de facto a tool of US imperialism and the US and its cronies have been involved in an egregious amount of military and other kinds of aggression all around the world, all of which correctly alarms that world, is not a good reason for you to think that those who disagree with you love Russian nationalism or whatever other bullshit you want to invent.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

It's because of who they kill, or more precisely, the fact that it's impossible to control who they kill.

Most of the countries that ban cluster munitions are the same ones that also ban the use of landmines and for the exact same reasons... and to the best of my knowledge the USA, Ukraine and Russia aren't signatories to either agreement banning those weapons.

 

[Silvanus]

are you for real? i've never described what I've personally posted in this thread as an avalanche. That is a description of what exists. AFU was literally posting the shit themselves on their twitter account. I've seen way more than ten instances of AFU Nazi symbols. Is it really that hard for you to find it yourself? By contrast, with NAFO trolls it seems like it's always the same few pictures when they want to deflect to Wagner. Meanwhile Mark Hamill talks to some Ukrainian drone pilots and they just happen to have a blood and soil flag prominently displayed in the background. But if it makes you feel any better, sure, you've probably posted more Nazi shit in this thread than I have. Good job.

This is pretty pathetic. You were more than happy to just slap a bunch of photos with Nazi stuff to show how terrible Azov is. And then when it's shown that it's just as easy to do the same with Wagner-- which is many times the size, "completely financed" by the Russian state to the tune of £3 billion, and far more active in offensive actions worldwide-- you throw this hissy fit about how it doesn't mean anything and I should go find more evidence myself.

An enormous chunk of the Russian invasion force is staffed by ultranationalists and Nazis. This demonstrates how Putin doesn't give a shit about fighting Nazis, and is in fact the world's foremost financier and employer of them. The sole reason you're taking part in this reputation-laundering is that the nature of Wagner and the Russian state's patronage exposes the lie of their justifications for the invasion.

As for your idea that the proper constitutional answer to an elected leader fleeing threats of assassination by far right paramilitaries is to reify the overthrow of the government, that seems like a view that probably doesn't make it over the border into your own country. Just a guess.

Sure, they should have just left someone who wasn't present and could not be reached as the head of government. That makes perfect sense.

Fact is, the vast majority of the Ukrainian parliament voted to remove him. You can moan about their reasons for doing so, or you can whine about not reaching a 3/4 threshold, but that doesn't really change the fact that it was their elected parliament that made the decision. That's your "coup"-- an elected parliament voting to do something about a leader who went AWOL (with the support of his own party, no less).

 

[Thaluikhain]

Imagine if we fought wars that way.
Show up and yell about how you had sexual congress with the entire opposing military's mother last night.
All those kids who grew up playing COD finally can put their skills to use.

After a successful raid on the Lotofen islands in Norway in WW2, the British sent a telegram to Hitler saying "You said in your last speech, German troops would meet the British wherever they landed. Where are your troops?". After the raid, the German sent troops to reinforce Norway, and thus missed the real fighting. Taunting Hitler may have contributed.

Honestly, I think even China resupplying them is just postponing the inevitable. China doesn't make tanks fast enough to replace them at the rate Russia is losing them and you know damn well China is charging them through the fucking nose for everything they sell to Russia.

The other problem is China isn't selling them tank crews, and every time Russia has a tank turret pop they lose a tank crew. A tank crew that might have been experienced, which means now they need to train another one to replace it. Or stick three dudes in a tank I guess and see what happens.

When the USN sunk four Japanese Carriers at the battle of Midway during WW2, it wasn't just hundreds of planes and 4 expensive aircraft carriers that were lost. It was hundreds of trained and experienced Japanese Navy Pilots that were lost, and that was the biggest blow of them all. It hurt them for the rest of the war and no doubt Russia is probably having a similar problem by now.

This.

Though, as a random note, apparently during WW2 there were instances of US tank crews panicking and abandoning their vehicles, only for not-panicking infantry to jump in and be able to successfully use them, or at least operate the weapon systems (which were made similar to others). Though some US tank crews weren't trained, you have drivers who'd never driven a car apparently getting into a tank for the first time before a battle.

Use them on the minefields.

Leaving you with UXB and mines in the same area, plus lots of bits of metal for false positives for metal detecting.

They could use drone tanks.

Which they don't have, and which nobody uses or is planning to use in any serious way in the forseeable future, due to the massive problems involved.