Final Fantasy 16

[Silvanus]

Basically yes, the modern person is so disconnected from what medieval times was really like that there is a sort of magical whimsy about that era in general. Which allows the world building to include magic and monsters without too much difficulty because the setting is already such a fantasy that monsters and magic don't feel out of place. The opposite of that is the sci-fi world either through Cyberpunk-like settings or full on space fantasy like Star Wars. Wizards, cyborgs, and technology that otherwise is basically magic still fits within the audience's mind because it's already such an unfamiliar setting that including that content isn't jarring.

Believability, immersion, realism, however you want to apply the description of a "world that makes sense" to the viewer is up to you. But that's essentially what I think the intent behind it was, in having a world based in such a way that the content within it and the lore behind it would make logical sense to the player. It's not attempting at being any sort of realistic interpretations of cultures in real life. In fact I'd say that FF16 goes through quite great lengths to sort of hide the cultures of the people contained within.

There are cities and towns and differences in building structure, but culture and belief systems are really left out of it, maybe to avoid pointless real-world comparisons or simply not wanting to take the extra effort in writing something most players don't give a fuck about. The story gives you just enough clues and tidbits to allow the player to sort of fill in the blanks on their own and allows them to make their own assumptions on the people and their ways of life should the player choose. But it's never outright laid out to you, even in the encyclopedia behind the scenes they keep it very generalized.

Right-- believability is linked to this whimsical, pretty vague notion of the medieval/chivalric times they use as a template, as well as the in-universe worldbuilding.

But if someone's notion of what they find 'believable' in a quasi-chivalric setting will include dragons and magic, but exclude people of colour, then that person is being utterly arbitrary. The former requires a far bigger leap.

You can never truly avoid some real world comparisons to be made, it's how people relate to a purely fictional story. So that is unavoidable to a degree, however that also doesn't mean you can always infer racist intent on magical people. The reason this happens is less about the artistic intent behind the setting and it's people and more a problem with the nature of the human mind.

The human mind has been programed to find patterns, and to connect dots with those patterns as part of our higher functioning intellectual capability. Just this past weekend Southern California got hit with a Hurricane (downgraded to a tropical storm by the time it reached inland) for the first time in 90 years. At the same time part of the Ventura basin got hit with an Earthquake for the first time in 90 years as well. So naturally the news and people where all over twitter (X) asking seismologists if there was a connection between Hurricane and Earthquake (no btw), because people try to make connections and make patterns fit and all that. Hell patterns are why Music Theory works so well, it's patterns.

So people tend to use that same line of thinking when looking at events in a fantasy game, or movie, which they then try to label as problematic because if you are already of that negative mindset of thinking everything is Anita Sarkeesian, then of course your brain is going to rationalize an explanation for why something is a social problem. Ignoring the coincidence of it, as writing tends to have tropes and creature types that fit story telling devices. This makes these kinds of jumps easy for people.

A good example is present in Harry Potter, where a group of people already where biasly determined to shit on the game because of their feelings towards JK Rowling. So what did they do, they looked all over the game (which they insisted they wouldn't buy or support) to find things they could use as "proof" JK and the devs are nothing but pieces of shit. So they accused the Goblins of being stand ins for Jewish people, and also found a horn used in Goblin raids that tangentally they linked to a horn some nazi used to raid Jewish village's....or something along those lines. Goblins have been based around the same monster stereotype for decades, if they have stereotypical traits based of a cartoonishly exaggerated real culture that doesn't make them racist or a problem. It just means that creators have built this monster around a certain inspiration that is then parodied and exaggerated to go from something real to something that's fake.

No matter how you slice it though, fictional creatures, settings, characters, all of that comes from some basis in reality, but in so doing it does not also mean a racist intent was behind or continues to their continued use throughout various works.

There's a lot to unpack here. Firstly, the human tendency to recognise patterns. We all know about it, and how it explains why we see horses in cloud formations or Jesus in burnt toast. But you seem to just be using it as a catch-all explanation for a point of view you disagree with. You don't see X, so therefore anyone who sees X is just conjuring it from their mental programming. You haven't really considered the actual argument those people have made.

So in FF16, the 'pattern' is the lack of anyone who isn't white, in a huge cast. But that pattern isn't imagined-- its demonstrably true. Then we have possible explanations. In the case of patterns conjured by our mental tendency to invent patterns-- such as the horse in the cloud formation-- the alternative, likelier explanation is sheer coincidence. That's enough. But with FF16 we know it's not coincidence, because the publisher has said so: they've given us an alternative explanation. For that reason its not at all just a case of faulty pattern recognition. We have a definite, non-coincidental trend, resulting from human deciaions. And I can conclude that their alternative explanation doesn't hold water.

Now, you've also said that it's wrong to attribute these things to intentional malice. But that's not what (most) critics are doing. I don't believe at all that the creators were making an actively racist decision. But I do think they engaged in some pretty flimsy thought processes and gave a bunk explanation.

 

[CriticalGaming]

So in FF16, the 'pattern' is the lack of anyone who isn't white, in a huge cast. But that pattern isn't imagined-- its demonstrably true.

Except the whole region of Dhalmekia which people are distinctly several shades browner than "white".

Also you have to then say casts of all Japanese people are problems like in Yakuza games, and Ghosts of Tsushima in which there are only japanese and chinese mogol people within.

Why is it a problem when it's all "white" people? And even more bizzare, it's a game with all "white" people made by a studio of entirely Japanese people with the exception of one white guy.

Now, you've also said that it's wrong to attribute these things to intentional malice. But that's not what (most) critics are doing.

Well they are by calling such things racist. When you apply that label you are assuming intent and malice upon the work, unless you have a friendly way of calling something racist.

Tough admittedly most critics aren't even talking about the race of the people within the fictional game because it is entirely unequivocally unimportant to the games critique.

 

[BrawlMan]

And don't forget the fact that creating a whole fictional world with a whole fictional history and a bunch of fiction people, factions, tribes, etc....if really fucking hard.

Doesn't excuse the lack of trying.

I think these things are just unavoidable byproducts of an age where outrageous scrutiny is rampant.

​

Don't boil it down to simple "scrutiny is rampant". You know that is full of garbage. How about you actual read the article, and don't try to side step the issue? Once again, coming from the guy who made "Woke Thread", because he had nothing better to stand on and offer.

Well they are by calling such things racist. When you apply that label you are assuming intent and malice upon the work, unless you have a friendly way of calling something racist.

Read the fucking article. Actually read it, comprehend it, and understand it. It ain't a fucking Kotaku or IGN shit article, and stop seeing what you want to see.

 

[Zechs]

I've always found it a bit odd that people (mostly in the US) want more diversity/people of color, but what they really mean is they just want more black people. Seems like whenever a character who was white gets race swapped it's always to someone who is black as if no other race can act/matters.

From what I heard before the game released I got the Impression that every character was going to be white but there is a large part of the game that takes place in what is basically the middle east. I guess middle eastern people are to close to being white to count for anything apparently.


Anyway there not being a black character in a game that's based of off medieval Europe made by Japanese Developers seems pretty low on the list of issues with this Mid game.

 

[BrawlMan]

From what I heard before the game released I got the Impression that every character was going to be white but there is a large part of the game that takes place in what is basically the middle east. I guess middle eastern people are to close to being white to count for anything apparently.

Yep. I just talked about this.

That is not the main issue nor point the article is going for. Plus in the fantasy Arab Nation's case, the people there look light enough to pass for "white", so some people with bigoted or prejudice views will see it as a non issue. The developers saw it as a non-issue. Unfortunately that is true in life. There are people in Arab Nations or of Arab descent (that do or don't have any Anglo-Saxon in their blood or DNA) that see themselves as "white". So they think they'll get the same or the best treatment as white people in America, Western European countries, or or certain Asian countries such as China, when that dependably varies heavily. They might be higher on the totem pole, but the racists will treat them just the same or worse, when it's convenient and they're no longer needed, or if something happens and it's a non-white person doing a horrible crime or act of killing. Because some people have literally learned nothing from the war terror and how Arabs faced heavy prejudice during that time frame. Just like with people of Asian or Chinese descent got hit with heavy prejudice and racism when covid hit.

Anyway there not being a black character in a game that's based of off medieval Europe made by Japanese Developers seems pretty low on the list of issues with this Mid game.

Like I said before, black people actually dodged a bullet on this game, without how poorly the story delves into the themes of racism and slavery. The game's combat and soundtrack are phenomenal, but nearly everything else is either generic or average. Also, "mid" is such a lame and lazy slang. It's an even lamer version of calling something "meh".

 

[Hawki]

I've always found it a bit odd that people (mostly in the US) want more diversity/people of color, but what they really mean is they just want more black people. Seems like whenever a character who was white gets race swapped it's always to someone who is black as if no other race can act/matters.

From what I heard before the game released I got the Impression that every character was going to be white but there is a large part of the game that takes place in what is basically the middle east. I guess middle eastern people are to close to being white to count for anything apparently.


Anyway there not being a black character in a game that's based of off medieval Europe made by Japanese Developers seems pretty low on the list of issues with this Mid game.

Look, I don't have a horse in this race, but if you're making a fantasy setting, representation can questioned ad infinitum, because it's impossible to create a setting where every group on earth is represented, unless you're setting's hella big. So for instance, in Motherlands, it would be weird to have people of non-Malian descent. In Cyote and Crow, it would be weird to have people of non-Amerindian descent. In Avatar, it would be weird to have people of non Japanese/Chinese/Inuit/Tibetan descent. In Middle-earth, it would be weird to have people of non-European descent (yes, there's exceptions in all these cases, let's not get into semantics). Or, in Final Fantasy X (the only FF game I've played), weird to have anyone of non-Asian descent. Is FFX racist because it doesn't insert (X group) in it? Yes, I know Asia is a big place, but the game's inspirations are clear, and despite my gripes with FFX, I don't ever recall asking "where are the X people?"

 

[CriticalGaming]

I've always found it a bit odd that people (mostly in the US) want more diversity/people of color, but what they really mean is they just want more black people. Seems like whenever a character who was white gets race swapped it's always to someone who is black as if no other race can act/matters.

From what I heard before the game released I got the Impression that every character was going to be white but there is a large part of the game that takes place in what is basically the middle east. I guess middle eastern people are to close to being white to count for anything apparently.


Anyway there not being a black character in a game that's based of off medieval Europe made by Japanese Developers seems pretty low on the list of issues with this Mid game.

That's the rub isnt it. Not to mention the xenophobic culture appropriation in which Western media is trying to dictate another culture's approach to an artistic endeavor.

Again you can point to different people in the game and the naysayers will ignore it because it isnt about diversity or a genuine concern, it is a race baiting demand for a very specific group of people to appear in the work.

As you put it they arent race swapping known characters out for anyone other than black people. Cleopatra, superman, spiderman, little mermaid, are not being swapped for Asian Americans, Egyptians, Indians (from india), or anyother race of people. No instead there is one acceptable race swap and others are ignored. Because the agenda is to kept racism in the forefront of the media narrative so that the real problems facing people cant be ignored while we bicker and grandstand to each other.

 

[Dreiko]

Right-- believability is linked to this whimsical, pretty vague notion of the medieval/chivalric times they use as a template, as well as the in-universe worldbuilding.

But if someone's notion of what they find 'believable' in a quasi-chivalric setting will include dragons and magic, but exclude people of colour, then that person is being utterly arbitrary. The former requires a far bigger leap.

This is actually a distinctly american perspective. For people who grew up in nations without black people in them, dragons are a lot more normal to picture. It would seem odd and random to have some people just be of varying ethnicity for no reason in such stories when told in places that are relatively homogeneous, and Japan is definitely one of those places.


To people in those places, it's not even conscious, you just never even think in terms of race in that style. Obviously everyone looks more or less the same in a nation, that's why it's a nation. Most nations in the world comprise of a single people for the vast majority of the citizenry. Only america differs in that regard.

Which only proves further that FF16's excuse of "realism" is even heavier bullshit. I didn't like FF13 either, but he was fine as far as I remembered, but I never completed the game. I later watched everything on YouTube at one point.

XIII is one of the more futuristic FFs so they were totally able to realistically include him there, same with Barret in VII. And yeah basically he was just a single dad struggling to look after his son, he was the comedic relief of the party and pretty cool in general.

 

[Hawki]

This is actually a distinctly american perspective. For people who grew up in nations without black people in them, dragons are a lot more normal to picture.

Except they can also imagine European and Persian/Arab people, so...

There's any number of reasons why a fantasy setting wouldn't have a real-world group in it, that isn't one of them.

 

[Zechs]

Also, "mid" is such a lame and lazy slang. It's an even lamer version of calling something "meh".

Mid as in middle of the road, middle of the pack etc. I do agree it is a goofy and silly slang for 5/10. In a more serious context I would have used something else, but I said mid as a joke because there is a character in the game called Mid (best girl) who ironically is anything but "mid"

 

[BrawlMan]

Mid as in middle of the road, middle of the pack etc.

I know what it means. It's not hard to figure out.

do agree it is a goofy and silly slang for 5/10.

I prefer this for a 5/10 game.

​

In a more serious context I would have used something else, but I said mid as a joke because there is a character in the game called Mid (best girl) who ironically is anything but "mid"

Like I said before, I watched a playthough and I already know about her. One of the more cheerful and interesting characters in XVI.

 

[I can't enter my old name]

This is actually a distinctly american perspective. For people who grew up in nations without black people in them, dragons are a lot more normal to picture. It would seem odd and random to have some people just be of varying ethnicity for no reason in such stories when told in places that are relatively homogeneous, and Japan is definitely one of those places.

Speaking of dragons, people back then actually believed dragons were real. I'm sure the English know who their patron saint is.

If you take these stories and treat them as literal, you get something akin to fantasy, and even in mythical tales peoples were separated by geography. Let's just say that people could just teleport. Well it ruins any sense of suspense when you can just teleport away before getting killed, so very few can actually teleport lorewise, and when few people can teleport you end up with the same geographical divide.

Now am I saying FFXVI shouldn't have black people? No, I bet for the vast majority it didn't even occur to them if there was or wasn't a black character in FFXVI until that one journalist put YoshiP to task. I mean there are RPGs I've played where I can't even remember if there was a black person in it, and I certainly wasn't thinking how that character got there.

However it's pretty obvious why it's such an issue for games journalists, they have a rather unhealthy amount of race-consciousness and it's always about Medieval Europe because whiteness bothers them. That's who I have a problem with, because they annoy me.

 

[Hawki]

Speaking of dragons, people back then actually believed dragons were real. I'm sure the English know who their patron saint is.

Yeah yeah, I know, St George killed dragons, St Patrick kills snakes, but St Matthew got a unicorn.

It's not fair!

 

[Silvanus]

Except the whole region of Dhalmekia which people are distinctly several shades browner than "white".

Also you have to then say casts of all Japanese people are problems like in Yakuza games, and Ghosts of Tsushima in which there are only japanese and chinese mogol people within.

Why is it a problem when it's all "white" people? And even more bizzare, it's a game with all "white" people made by a studio of entirely Japanese people with the exception of one white guy.

I didn't say it's a necessarily or always a "problem". That's obviously contextual. Yakuza and Ghost of Tsushima have specific real-world settings, so realism and believability depend directly on the real world circumstances. This is not the case for fantasy worlds.

Well they are by calling such things racist. When you apply that label you are assuming intent and malice upon the work, unless you have a friendly way of calling something racist.

Tough admittedly most critics aren't even talking about the race of the people within the fictional game because it is entirely unequivocally unimportant to the games critique.

Tbh, I very rarely see commentators directly attributing these things to explicit racism on the part of the designer. Far more often I see people complaining that it's being labelled racism, even when that's not happening.

Take this very thread. I've not said the designers are racist. I don't believe they are. Nobody actually has accused them personally of racism. But when you're responding to me, you're acting as if that's the position your opponents have taken.

 

[Silvanus]

This is actually a distinctly american perspective. For people who grew up in nations without black people in them, dragons are a lot more normal to picture. It would seem odd and random to have some people just be of varying ethnicity for no reason in such stories when told in places that are relatively homogeneous, and Japan is definitely one of those places.

That's funny, since I'm not American.

No, gigantic fire breathing dinosaur monsters are a bigger leap of fancy than a human with a different skin tone.

To people in those places, it's not even conscious, you just never even think in terms of race in that style. Obviously everyone looks more or less the same in a nation, that's why it's a nation. Most nations in the world comprise of a single people for the vast majority of the citizenry. Only america differs in that regard.

Being around more white people than black people has not stifled my imagination to the point where I consider people who aren't white to be a fantastical, unbelievable phenomenon. That's completely absurd.

On a side note, it's also pretty wrong to imagine that most other countries are as homogeneous as you seem to think. Sure, /some/ are highly homogenised. But countless countries have experienced demographic mixing for centuries-- sometimes resulting from mass migration or resettlement, sometimes resulting from colonial experience.

 

[Dreiko]

Except they can also imagine European and Persian/Arab people, so...

There's any number of reasons why a fantasy setting wouldn't have a real-world group in it, that isn't one of them.

They didn't do any imagining, they took the trope stereotype of them and reproduced it, the thing that is in common culture in Japan which is pictured when someone there thinks of a story with knights and battles, that Dragon Quest has been aping for 35 years, that's as deep as their analysis goes. Same with the persians, they have a distinctly Alladin feel to them.

That's funny, since I'm not American.

No, gigantic fire breathing dinosaur monsters are a bigger leap of fancy than a human with a different skin tone.




Being around more white people than black people has not stifled my imagination to the point where I consider people who aren't white to be a fantastical, unbelievable phenomenon. That's completely absurd.

On a side note, it's also pretty wrong to imagine that most other countries are as homogeneous as you seem to think. Sure, /some/ are highly homogenised. But countless countries have experienced demographic mixing for centuries-- sometimes resulting from mass migration or resettlement, sometimes resulting from colonial experience.

You do not have to be american to have an american perspective lol. Ideas can be exported. And american culture is one of the most widespread, especially among natively english-speaking nations.

What I described isn't being around "more" white people than black, it's about being around more stories about DRAGONS than black people lol. In a lot of countries the only place you ever encounter black people is in media or videogames or something, never in real life for 99% of the population, so they might as well be as real as dragons to you. Or hell, dragons may be more real, depending on what media you prefer. If you haven't lived in such a society, and especially during a time prior to the mass adoption of the internet by everyone, it's kinda hard to picture how isolated from racial concepts everyone was. Pretty much the only thing that mattered is what country you're from. Nobody even considered the race of folks. You might hear about this one famous soccer player who got transferred over and you may see some NBA dude but that's about it. Growing up I had no concept of, for example, Michael Jordan being from in any way a marginalized community or anything of the sort. To me he was just a guy super duper good at bastkeball, whom I identified with and idolized, not even considering that he wasn't white in that calculation lol.

 

[Hawki]

They didn't do any imagining, they took the trope stereotype of them and reproduced it, the thing that is in common culture in Japan which is pictured when someone there thinks of a story with knights and battles, that Dragon Quest has been aping for 35 years, that's as deep as their analysis goes. Same with the persians, they have a distinctly Alladin feel to them.

To quote your own post:

" This is actually a distinctly american perspective. For people who grew up in nations without black people in them, dragons are a lot more normal to picture. "

To as to that, I'm not sure how this actually refutes anything. Taking tropes is easy to do regardless of the point of origin.

What I described isn't being around "more" white people than black, it's about being around more stories about DRAGONS than black people lol. In a lot of countries the only place you ever encounter black people is in media or videogames or something, never in real life for 99% of the population, so they might as well be as real as dragons to you.

That's absolutely absurd. There's something like 6000 recognized ethnic groups on planet Earth, spread across over 180 nation-states, I've met members of only a fraction of them (granted, I've travelled a fair bit as well), but I can assure you that between landing in the Amazon and meeting an uncontacted tribe, and meeting a dragon, one of those things is going to freak me out a lot more.

Or hell, dragons may be more real, depending on what media you prefer. If you haven't lived in such a society, and especially during a time prior to the mass adoption of the internet by everyone, it's kinda hard to picture how isolated from racial concepts everyone was. Pretty much the only thing that mattered is what country you're from. Nobody even considered the race of folks. You might hear about this one famous soccer player who got transferred over and you may see some NBA dude but that's about it. Growing up I had no concept of, for example, Michael Jordan being from in any way a marginalized community or anything of the sort. To me he was just a guy super duper good at bastkeball, whom I identified with and idolized, not even considering that he wasn't white in that calculation lol.

You actually do touch on something in the midst of all that - that American racial concepts can't be transplanted 1:1 to other countries, and I've certainly had...certain interactions on this site that really reinforce that in the context of different experiences. And per your Michael Jordan example, well, yes, back in the 90s, I wouldn't have seen him as "black," since I didn't really have had a concept of that at the time. Jordan himself, however, I'd wager would know it.

But even then, this is going on a wild tangent, because you're asking me to believe that people of certain skin colours would be more alien to the average person than dragons. I mean, really? REALLY?

And look, just to be clear, I don't think a fantasy setting is inherently obliged to do anything with its ethnic composition, because you can have ad infinitum combinations and inspirations across the Contrary to what some have said on this site, I don't buy the idea that a fantasy setting is inherently obliged to represent X, because among other things, it's perfectly valid to have specific inspirations for specific settings. But if your argument for the lack of X is something about dragons or "lack of familiarity," then it's BS.

 

[Silvanus]

You do not have to be american to have an american perspective lol. Ideas can be exported. And american culture is one of the most widespread, especially among natively english-speaking nations.

You were saying this perspective comes from a supposedly uniquely American experience, though. It clearly doesn't.

What I described isn't being around "more" white people than black, it's about being around more stories about DRAGONS than black people lol. In a lot of countries the only place you ever encounter black people is in media or videogames or something, never in real life for 99% of the population, so they might as well be as real as dragons to you. Or hell, dragons may be more real, depending on what media you prefer. If you haven't lived in such a society, and especially during a time prior to the mass adoption of the internet by everyone, it's kinda hard to picture how isolated from racial concepts everyone was.

I'm sorry, but this is completely ridiculous.

How many modern societies do you think have so little exposure to anybody who isn't of their own ethnicity-- either through media, news, or experience-- that it's genuinely significantly more common to encounter dragons?

Maybe highly isolated rural or tribal communities without television or Internet.

Nobody even considered the race of folks. You might hear about this one famous soccer player who got transferred over and you may see some NBA dude but that's about it. Growing up I had no concept of, for example, Michael Jordan being from in any way a marginalized community or anything of the sort. To me he was just a guy super duper good at bastkeball, whom I identified with and idolized, not even considering that he wasn't white in that calculation lol.

OK, so this bit is completely at odds with what you were saying above.

Here you're saying you saw a black guy and his skin tone didn't make a difference. But... before, you were saying that if someone had little exposure, they would find someone of other skin tones so incredibly unbelievable that they'd be incapable of incorporating it into a story.

If you saw a real-life dragon on TV at that time, instead of someone with a different skin tone, would you have had the same reaction? Would you have just "not even considered" that it was a gigantic firebreathing lizard? Because earlier you were saying people without much exposure would find the two things just as unbelievable as eachother.

 

[BrawlMan]

But even then, this is going on a wild tangent, because you're asking me to believe that people of certain skin colours would be more alien to the average person than dragons. I mean, really? REALLY?

Like I said before, I already knew the usual suspects would say or try shit like this.

And look, just to be clear, I don't think a fantasy setting is inherently obliged to do anything with its ethnic composition, because you can have ad infinitum combinations and inspirations across the Contrary to what some have said on this site, I don't buy the idea that a fantasy setting is inherently obliged to represent X, because among other things, it's perfectly valid to have specific inspirations for specific settings.

While there is some truth to that, there is nothing wrong doing so, and it has many positives benefits to start learning or understanding different cultures better.

The Appropriation of Avatar - Harvard Political Review

American culture likes to identify its heroes and villains; Avatar the Last Airbender creators Koniezko and DiMartino are neither. For me, they are not “canceled.” But contrary to public worship, their work bears harm too.

harvardpolitics.com

one of this origin story sounds White-free to me. But then, DiMartino and Koniezko added a twist. “We were really into yoga when we started this show, which is probably why we wanted to do something that was Asian influenced,” Konietzko told The New York Times in 2005. Eastern cultures proved a source-material jackpot. To achieve child-appropriate action without violence, they adapted four ancient Chinese martial arts styles as “bending” powers and consulted a Los Angeles-based master who taught in a way “accessible to the Western mind.” To deepen their hero’s inner life, they introduced Guru Pathik to explain the seven chakras. To beautify their branding, they hired Chinese calligrapher Siu-Leung Lee. They also hired South Korean animation studios and cultural consultant Edwin Zane.

But if your argument for the lack of X is something about dragons or "lack of familiarity," then it's BS.

Right next to Critical, Dreiko argument is the biggest BS ever.

 

[Dreiko]

To quote your own post:

" This is actually a distinctly american perspective. For people who grew up in nations without black people in them, dragons are a lot more normal to picture. "

To as to that, I'm not sure how this actually refutes anything. Taking tropes is easy to do regardless of the point of origin.



That's absolutely absurd. There's something like 6000 recognized ethnic groups on planet Earth, spread across over 180 nation-states, I've met members of only a fraction of them (granted, I've travelled a fair bit as well), but I can assure you that between landing in the Amazon and meeting an uncontacted tribe, and meeting a dragon, one of those things is going to freak me out a lot more.



You actually do touch on something in the midst of all that - that American racial concepts can't be transplanted 1:1 to other countries, and I've certainly had...certain interactions on this site that really reinforce that in the context of different experiences. And per your Michael Jordan example, well, yes, back in the 90s, I wouldn't have seen him as "black," since I didn't really have had a concept of that at the time. Jordan himself, however, I'd wager would know it.

But even then, this is going on a wild tangent, because you're asking me to believe that people of certain skin colours would be more alien to the average person than dragons. I mean, really? REALLY?

And look, just to be clear, I don't think a fantasy setting is inherently obliged to do anything with its ethnic composition, because you can have ad infinitum combinations and inspirations across the Contrary to what some have said on this site, I don't buy the idea that a fantasy setting is inherently obliged to represent X, because among other things, it's perfectly valid to have specific inspirations for specific settings. But if your argument for the lack of X is something about dragons or "lack of familiarity," then it's BS.

It's not that different skin tones would be "alien" as much as "random". Like, there'd be no point to adding them one way or the other so why bother. While dragons, they're cool, they kidnap princesses and set fire to villages and share their heart with seemingly good princes who turn out to be shitheads and then pair up with scruffy knights in order to take down the princes and then become stars. They're voiced by Shean Connery!


It's not like people would be left with mouths agape at the sight of a black person, it's that it just wouldn't do anything for them one way or the other and would seem odd. Like if someone was wearing clown shoes in a non-KH setting for no reason. Not alien, we all know what clown shoes are, just odd and random. Its purpose indiscernible.

You were saying this perspective comes from a supposedly uniquely American experience, though. It clearly doesn't.



I'm sorry, but this is completely ridiculous.

How many modern societies do you think have so little exposure to anybody who isn't of their own ethnicity-- either through media, news, or experience-- that it's genuinely significantly more common to encounter dragons?

Maybe highly isolated rural or tribal communities without television or Internet.



OK, so this bit is completely at odds with what you were saying above.

Here you're saying you saw a black guy and his skin tone didn't make a difference. But... before, you were saying that if someone had little exposure, they would find someone of other skin tones so incredibly unbelievable that they'd be incapable of incorporating it into a story.

If you saw a real-life dragon on TV at that time, instead of someone with a different skin tone, would you have had the same reaction? Would you have just "not even considered" that it was a gigantic firebreathing lizard? Because earlier you were saying people without much exposure would find the two things just as unbelievable as eachother.

Yeah basically everyone outside of some folks like me in the capital city would fit in that "rural community without internet and bad tv signal" growing up, so you have the right idea. And surely it has changed in the recent times, but people growing up with how it used to be bring with them the norms that such upbringing instilled in them.



And not "unbelievable", just "random". Basically the thinking is on a nation by nation basis. White americans, black americans, you're all just as bad. That's the thinking. Dragons have base in our own culture in some regard so there's stories about them you hear growing up, some christian-based, others ancient, but black people are just irrelevant conceptually so when someone goes out of their way to include them it doesn't make sense as to why they'd do that in a setting that's not in actual Africa or something.