Final Fantasy 16

CriticalGaming

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Isn't it turn based like divinity OS2 though? Those basically are like the trails of series where while, turn based, you can move around and moves have ranges and unique areas of effect on top of the classic FF formula where speed determines turn order, and the trails of series is the definitive modern day Jrpg.
Divinity is an attempt to make a game based of the straight up rules of a table top system like DnD but couldn't quite be DnD because they didn't have the license. However now they have full license with Balder's Gate, so this game is 5th edition DnD in video game format. Which, yes is turn based, it's got a lot more rules to those turns than your typical Jrpg.

I don't see Final fantasy or Jrpg's in general taking that direction not really for the combat, but more for the fact that Japanese developers do not choices in storytelling. They tend to want to tell a specific story and that's it. So something like BG3 is highly unlikely from a Japanese studio tbh.
 

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Divinity is an attempt to make a game based of the straight up rules of a table top system like DnD but couldn't quite be DnD because they didn't have the license. However now they have full license with Balder's Gate, so this game is 5th edition DnD in video game format. Which, yes is turn based, it's got a lot more rules to those turns than your typical Jrpg.

I don't see Final fantasy or Jrpg's in general taking that direction not really for the combat, but more for the fact that Japanese developers do not choices in storytelling. They tend to want to tell a specific story and that's it. So something like BG3 is highly unlikely from a Japanese studio tbh.
No I just meant showing them that turn based is still viable, in a broader sense. I don't expect to have FF play like D&D in the choice department or have rolls and whatnot but it could be turn based like how it was in the past again.


Time and time again I've read devs from SE claim that modern era gamers who didn't grow up with turn based games hate turn based and only like action, so this could serve as a counterpoint to that way of thought.
 

CriticalGaming

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No I just meant showing them that turn based is still viable, in a broader sense. I don't expect to have FF play like D&D in the choice department or have rolls and whatnot but it could be turn based like how it was in the past again.
I mean Persona and Dragonquest should show them that. For better or worse Final Fantasy has always been pushing towards being an Action RPG above everything else. So I think if they were going to take that step they'd have pulled back by now. Instead they have gone deeper into the action pool.

Time and time again I've read devs from SE claim that modern era gamers who didn't grow up with turn based games hate turn based and only like action, so this could serve as a counterpoint to that way of thought.
This never made sense to me because they've released successful turn based games in recent years that should prove this statement false. Bravely Default, Octopath Traveler, etc. The most popular RPG in the world is turn based, Pokemon.

Statements like this seem out of touch to most people, but to me they strike as marketing speech to justify their decisions one way or the other. I don't think the higher ups are that tone deaf to what's going on in gaming, they know that the changes in combat are going to upset some people, so statements like this strike me as more badd conflict aversion that anything else.
 
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I mean Persona and Dragonquest should show them that. For better or worse Final Fantasy has always been pushing towards being an Action RPG above everything else. So I think if they were going to take that step they'd have pulled back by now. Instead they have gone deeper into the action pool.



This never made sense to me because they've released successful turn based games in recent years that should prove this statement false. Bravely Default, Octopath Traveler, etc. The most popular RPG in the world is turn based, Pokemon.

Statements like this seem out of touch to most people, but to me they strike as marketing speech to justify their decisions one way or the other. I don't think the higher ups are that tone deaf to what's going on in gaming, they know that the changes in combat are going to upset some people, so statements like this strike me as more badd conflict aversion that anything else.
I think that with persona and DQ and pokemon they take it as not having enough "mainstream western appeal", which makes it not an ideal example. So they dismiss it. Though I agree with you that it should be enough.


BG3 shouldn't have that problem.
 

CriticalGaming

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I think that with persona and DQ and pokemon they take it as not having enough "mainstream western appeal", which makes it not an ideal example. So they dismiss it. Though I agree with you that it should be enough.


BG3 shouldn't have that problem.
Maybe for Persona an DQ, but not for pokemon, they KNOW that shit is globally gigantic.
 
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This never made sense to me because they've released successful turn based games in recent years that should prove this statement false. Bravely Default, Octopath Traveler, etc. The most popular RPG in the world is turn based, Pokemon.
As Sterling as pointed out in his JRPG vs. just RPG discussion video, there are enough people in-denial/dumb enough that they don't consider Pokémon an (J)RPG, or the franchise "doesn't count", because it "transcends" anime/RPGs. Yes, there are people that conceded, insecure, and stupid. The same way how Dark Souls "doesn't count" as an (J)ARPG, because it has a heavier Western influences. Even though FF took heavily from D&D mainly with I-VI.


Statements like this seem out of touch to most people, but to me they strike as marketing speech to justify their decisions one way or the other. I don't think the higher ups are that tone deaf to what's going on in gaming, they know that the changes in combat are going to upset some people, so statements like this strike me as more badd conflict aversion that anything else.
Yep.

BG3 shouldn't have that problem.
BG3 is D&D, so it won't have that problem.

@CriticalGaming, @Dreiko, @Silvanus, and maybe @Old_Hunter_77, you might want to check out the first video. It's relevant to the conversation. I already got it time stamped.




Custom controls fix.
 

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I lent my copy to my sister's partner, who is replaying Skyrim for like the billionth time and is into WoW. She doesn't play games at all but, you know how it is, watches or is around sometimes. I very much look forward to to their opinion. I genuinely don't know what it will be (I mean usually I can guess what people I know would like or not). That says.. something.. about FF16 lol
 
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I lent my copy to my sister's partner, who is replaying Skyrim for like the billionth time and is into WoW. She doesn't play games at all but, you know how it is, watches or is around sometimes. I very much look forward to to their opinion. I genuinely don't know what it will be (I mean usually I can guess what people I know would like or not). That says.. something.. about FF16 lol
Can you recommend them DMC 5SE or Bayonetta when they are finished? I want to see their reaction more so to the second option. But the first option works great to
 

Old_Hunter_77

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Can you recommend them DMC 5SE or Bayonetta when they are finished? I want to see their reaction more so to the second option. But the first option works great to
Well we talked about it but the reason he's gonna try FF16 is because I literally handed him my physical copy of the game, I don't have that for those two. And he's just on PS5 and I never played DMC more than a few minutes. Anyway, nether are into that fast action fighting game thing the way you are or the way I want to be but suck at.
 

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Well we talked about it but the reason he's gonna try FF16 is because I literally handed him my physical copy of the game, I don't have that for those two. And he's just on PS5 and I never played DMC more than a few minutes. Anyway, nether are into that fast action fighting game thing the way you are or the way I want to be but suck at.
No worries. If they choose to or not, it's okay. Plus DMC 5SE is only on Series X and PS5, so they can get a physical copy or download it at any point to pay. There is no PS5 version of Bayonetta, but you can either get a PS4 disc or just download it from the PlayStation store and it's compatible with PS5.

In fact, just let me know what their reaction is when they get to the first Panzer Dragoon (rail shooting) section. I love to hear the details on the first opening few hours.
 

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Warning, BeeG acts like a contrarian ass in this video. It's really out of character of him. He made his displeasure of Norse God of War some of the time, but it gets outright ugly. Though he mainly goes after Souls games. FFXVI is relevant to the conversation and some of his points, but he shoots himself in the foot.

 

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So, I finally got around to playing the demo for Game of Fantasy and I'm pretty unimpresed. The hacky/slashy combat is fun. That is all the good things I have to say about it. The rest appears to be sub Game of Thrones nonsense complete with knock of Stark's and a weakly savior child.

I turned it off after weakly savior boy turned into a Phoenix and fought a rock monster for some reason and I realized that I couldn't be arsed with it any more. I know a demo doesn't show what the whole game is about, but in this case, I think its pretty close. So yeah, this will be a miss for me.
 
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More Black video game heroes shouldn’t be a fantasy
DeAngelo Epps

By DeAngelo EppsAugust 19, 2023 3:00AM
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As a Black youth back in the early 2000s, I became an avid gamer after being introduced to Sonic the Hedgehog on the Sega Genesis. From there, I fell in love with nearly every game under the sun, discovering as many as I could. But it was my uncle who would really change my life forever when he showed me my first RPG in Final Fantasy 7 and bought me Kingdom Hearts. So imagine my excitement when I got to see Black characters like Barret on-screen in a heroic RPG. Sure, I’d seen Black characters in games before thanks to the beat ’em up and fighting game genres, but I was thrilled to see them in a genre where the closest thing to people of my complexion was the Black Mage. It opened my young mind to how invisible I was in so much of gaming.


CONTENTS

Flash forward to today and you might understand why people like me were so disappointed when Final Fantasy XVI producer Naoki Yoshida argued that the RPG didn’t include Black characters for the sake of maintaining “realism” in its European-inspired setting. It felt like a poorly argued step back, though it’s not exactly an outlier in the broader industry. While video games have continued to evolve and open themselves up to new audiences through more diverse representation, many of today’s biggest games from all around the world still tend to treat white male heroes as the “default” option.

It’s a problem that’s always been at the forefront of the entertainment industry, though Yoshida’s comments reopened gaming’s wound this year. The issue lay in cases like that of Final Fantasy XVI, which isn’t too big of a problem on its own. It becomes a more pressing concern, though, when compounded with decades of examples just like it. The recurring nature of the problem is emblematic of larger representation issues in gaming — ones that are about who gets to make games rather than what fictional characters look like on screen.

The problem
Last November, IGN asked Final Fantasy 16 producer Naoki Yoshida about the lack of character diversity in the RPG. Yoshida called it a “difficult question” before giving an answer that would spark a long debate among gaming audiences. In his explanation, Yoshida claimed that having diverse characters would go against the “realism” the team wanted to present in the “isolated realm” of Valisthea — never mind that the kingdom also is home to magic crystals and mythological demons.

“It can be challenging to assign distinctive ethnicities to either antagonist or protagonist without triggering audience preconceptions, inviting unwarranted speculation, and ultimately stoking flames of controversy,” Yoshida said at the time. While Yoshida says he recognizes the growth in the fight for diversity in the entertainment medium, that belief seems at odds with his roundabout reasoning for why an invented fantasy world couldn’t include Black characters.

I want to see people in games that reflect me visually and culturally.
The issue behind this is that Final Fantasy XVI’s story isn’t exactly unique and its multinational setting seems like it would have set the stage perfectly for characters of all colors to exist. And though Final Fantasy is in the spotlight, it’s far from the only high-profile series that’s run into that problem. Long-running AAA franchises like Dragon Quest are light on Black characters, while Resident Evil tends to use them as cannon fodder. As a player of color, while I’m still a fan of these properties, it can be disheartening to feel straight-up ignored in the franchises that matter most, and that’s a thought that you can hear echoed from other Black players.

“I want to see people in games that reflect me visually and culturally,” Kahlief Adams, founder of the award-winning POC spotlight-focused gaming podcast Spawn On Me and Spawnies award show told me in a conversation about the subject. “I think that’s a conversation around diversity and inclusion and equity, right?”

Adams dedicates a ton of his work to opening the world of gaming to people of color, both reflected in the actual media and those working on it. I spoke with him about how diversity in gaming has changed, yet why it feels whiteness is still the default of it all. He believes that while diverse minds working behind the scenes have grown, the actual visual representation in the medium is still behind.

“Gaming seems like a place where things are taking the longest to come together both on the visual representation side and especially on the cultural side,” Adams says. “I don’t think there’s a lot of culturally connected stories that we see in the gaming space that reflect Blackness and reflect a lot of minority cultures.”

“When we are talking about representation, what does that actually mean for the folks who are asking for it?” he asks. “It depends on who you are. It depends on the temperature of the room and the moment. I don’t think we would have seen some of the changes we saw within gaming if the George Floyd incident didn’t happen. That’s sad to know, but it’s also honest and real. I think people care about us when the conversation leans into it. That conversation is getting better, but we’re behind the curve in terms of like what we are trying to do from a cultural perspective and an industry layer.”

Content creator, Katie “Pikachulita” Robinson-Mays has a similar perspective on the industry. Recently coming away from an issue with an Elgato partnerships overseer supporting NickMercs after he posted an anti-LGBTQ Tweet and had his Call of Duty skin removed from the game, Robinson-Mays has noticed how ingrained such narrow representation has hurt gaming as a whole for everyone else.

“It’s one of those things where there’s still a lot of work that has to be done,” Robinson-Mays tells me. “The fact is that we still see a significant lack of marginalized individuals within gaming studios, especially the larger ones. While indie studios are better about it, AAA studios still have to play catch up when it comes to that.”

No ID
We know some of the problems that contribute to a continued lack of diversity in some of gaming’s biggest franchises, but how can we get more people of color into these large studios to begin to see our culture properly reflected in the medium? The answer proposed by Adams shows that it’s not as simple as having a few people send in applications to get picked up by Microsoft.

“Whiteness is always going to be centered until people of color and people who come from marginalized spaces are in positions of power to make the decisions,” Adams says. “About what gets played, who gets to see it, who it’s marketed to, and who are the folks who are going to be brought in the room to help those conversations get pushed along.”

“But it’s a hard industry to get into,” Adams adds. “In the same way that I think that Black culture is a cosign culture, I think game development is a cosign culture. It’s a huge conversation about who you know and if someone can give you a good referral. A chicken and egg situation where it’s like, how do you get if you never had ID?”

There are people within this landscape and ecosystem that still don’t want people like me and you to exist within it.
“Pikachulita” Robin-Mays believes that the industry needs to be completely rebuilt if we’re going to see a change to the current scene and its sluggish evolution. “That’s all I’ve ever known because that’s how the gaming landscape of gaming started.”

“It’s reflected in the games where we didn’t see prominent Black characters anywhere but fighting games and beat ‘em ups until that early 2000’s era with Def Jam and Grand Theft Auto. When you don’t have marginalized identities anywhere near the forefront of your games and nothing but cis, het, typically white men a lot of the times there’s no wonder that things are the way they are. Especially when you realize the fact that these sorts of people are the ones that are a lot of times making the games and are communities that have been forged years.”

So why aren’t more companies trying to push for more representation in the gaming medium, both on-screen and off? The answer might just be apathy.

Speaking to Robinson-Mays and Adams, both creators echoed a similar thought: “Why really should they care?” Companies know who plays their games, they know their audience, and they know what works and sells. In 2021 the Entertainment Software Association’s study on diversity in gaming showed that 55% of gamers identified as male and 73% of ESA respondents identified as white. So why switch that to make a minority feel more open to jumping into their game? Specifically, in the case of Final Fantasy 16, it’s not really their problem and that’s why I can’t fully fault them for ignoring it.

Cloud and Barret in Final Fantasy 7.

“There’s an expectation for them to give back when there shouldn’t be,” Adams says. “No one said that they had to put us in anything except for the fact that it makes the case for why games are so special. You got two or three Black characters over the lineage of 30 to 40 games, but Black folks are the first ones to go run out and cosplay it. It’s a weird double-edged sword where you love people that don’t love you back. And you have an expectation for them to care about you in the same ways that you care about them. It would be more interesting to me to see Black people say, ‘I’m not playing this game because you don’t do want you said.’”

Hope for change
Despite continued tensions in some of gaming’s largest franchises, we have seen growth when it comes to diversity in gaming. Games like Forspoken and Redfall center Black characters this year, and Marvel’s Spider-Man 2will feature a playable Miles Morales. Both creators I spoke to believe that more Black and POC voices behind the scenes will further help push cultural diversity to the forefront. Doing so could push studios to let go of overused crutches like Medieval European settings, giving us more unique projects like the deep south-based Xbox exclusive South of Midnight.

Along with this, other recent games like Street Fighter 6 have pushed people of color to the forefront thanks to a richly diverse cast of fighters. Titles like that make a great effort to change our perception of what “default” looks like in a game. It’s probably no coincidence that Capcom even went to lengths to include people of different races in the development of said characters.

South of Midnight main character using electric magic.
And while that’s easier said than done, there’s a lot that can be done right from home according to Adams, namely voting with your dollar. Robinson-Mays believes it’s about better cultivating your environment and community as a creator. But both believe it starts with us.

“What we’ve been taught is this survival mechanism that makes us feel we can be the only one of our minority at the top,” Robinson-Mays states. “You can get up to the top all you want, but if you’re the only Black, queer, or woman up there what is that going to do for you? Is that true progress?”

But that isn’t fully the responsibility of marginalized players either. There are gaming fans that have the power to help push the momentum. Meanwhile, those in power — whether white, Black, and everything in between — can keep making moves to increase the visibility and towards the norm of having casts that defy a long-standing white male default standard we’re still fighting out of. We’ve seen it plenty of times now with recent games like Street Fighter 6, the Splatoon series, Forspoken, and even in God of War’s amplification of Kratos voice actor, Christopher Judge. The progress is there, but we have a lot of room to grow and everyone can lend a hand.
To add to this, Mr. Epps is not wrong, and I do not blame him. Like Sterling mentioned before him, the whole "realism" excuse is the same bullshit for why most cover shooters only allowed the player to carry two weapons at once, for the sake of "realism". Before anyone or the usual suspects goes on about artist intent, or being dismissive of one the writer's views, because they're a person of color/woman/white person with alternate or nuanced perspective: that doesn't make Square nor Yoshida immune to criticism. Second, I really don't care for the overly defensive and reductive responses that go into a loop, and not wasting time on it. You all know me by this point. Though I will say, black people actual dodged a bullet on this game, considering FFXVI doesn't do themes of racism and slavery all that well. I mentioned it before, and I have no problem mentioning it again.

I know gameplay is good and all, but I decided not to bother picking up this game at all. Not any sale nor for even free. I was looking for something I already more than have, and FFXVI won't give me much a this point, and are there too many games I am more interested in than it. I appreciate your input/review when playing the game @Old_Hunter_77, and I owe you an apology already given to you, and one to @Silvanus, to any hassle I gave you. I do apologize.

I do appreciate the name drops with Street Fighter 6 (you should have included SFIII, IV, and V as well) and Splatoon (though I am not a fan of those games), Mr. Epps. Forspoken not so much, but if you enjoy the game, more power to you. You forgot about the Streets of Rage franchise and Sheva Alomar and Josh Stone from RE5. I get RE5 had its many problems with the tribal enemies, but Sheva and Josh are actual characters with agency, and both of them survive the entire game.

That is all left I have to say on the matter.
 
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Dreiko

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To add to this, Mr. Epps is not wrong, and I do not blame him. Like Sterling mentioned before him, the whole "realism" excuse is the same bullshit for why most cover shooters only allowed the player to carry two weapons at once, for the sake of "realism". Before anyone or the usual suspects goes on about artist intent, or being dismissive of one the writer's views, because they're a person of color/woman/white person with alternate or nuanced perspective: that doesn't make Square nor Yoshida immune to criticism. Second, I really don't care for the overly defensive and reductive responses that go into a loop, and not wasting time on it. You all know me by this point. Though I will say, black people actual dodged a bullet on this game, considering FFXVI doesn't do themes of racism and slavery all that well. I mentioned it before, and I have no problem mentioning it again.

I know gameplay is good and all, but I decided not to bother picking up this game at all. Not any sale nor for even free. I was looking for something I already more than have, and FFXVI won't give me much a this point, and are there too many games I am more interested in than it. I appreciate your input/review when playing the game @Old_Hunter_77, and I owe you an apology already given to you, and one to @Silvanus, to any hassle I gave you. I do apologize.

I do appreciate the name drops with Street Fighter 6 (you should have included SFIII, IV, and V as well) and Splatoon (though I am not a fan of those games), Mr. Epps. Forspoken not so much, but if you enjoy the game, more power to you. You forgot about the Streets of Rage franchise and Sheva Alomar and Josh Stone from RE5. I get RE5 had its many problems with the tribal enemies, but Sheva and Josh are actual characters with agency, and both of them survive the entire game.

That is all left I have to say on the matter.

I don't think the sort of realism they have in mind is "how are you gonna fit 99 potions into your backpack, 6 is about right", which granted the game also does. But no, the realism they have in mind is more aptly put as "believability". Basically, the iconic thing everyone imagines when they are asked to picture an orthodox fantasy setting, and aren't purposefully being activist in their interpretation of that request by trying it to re-imagine it a preferable to them way but just imagine it honestly. That's the sort of thing they were going for. And newsflash, but that did not stop with the look of the cast. The plot itself is basically FF1 tier orthodox. If you've played any Jrpg ever before, you've likely played a more complex plot.

Also I know you said you haven't played the game but there is an entire nation of persian-type folk too, so not quite sub saharan, think more Aladin, and it's odd that people always somehow forget that an entire nation exists in their criticism lol. Maybe they were not quite dark enough or something? Though persians can be pretty pale too.