Lies of P demo impressions

Phoenixmgs

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I haven’t watched the review yet but maybe people want the QoL improvements that have been added to the genre since Dark Souls came out like 12 years ago? The big example that comes to mind is checkpoints near boss fights.
I was commenting on exactly what I quoted (not checkpoints). One of the big reasons people loved Souls so much was because it was new and they didn't know how the game worked and figuring it out was like half the fun. Souls also normally locks you into a playstyle/weapon with how the upgrade system works (and limited upgrade rocks). Bloodborne was probably the best in that regard as scaling your damage to a stat wasn't nearly as important than in previous Souls games, but then you have the issue where upgrading/leveling is less important overall and it's more so apparent that you're just leveling to keep up with enemy stats more than anything. Doing it either way inherently has issues (which is why I prefer getting skills/abilities when leveling vs just number improvements). In Dark Souls, you could literally upgrade your weapon to where it would break (crystal weapons) and couldn't repair it. I just find it odd that people are complaining about something that originally made Souls special to a lot of people.
 

Bartholen

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Just came to this thread to say that the movement of the character in this game drives me nuts in a way I've never experienced. It looks like the character is walking on ice, or freshly waxed floor, because his feet are constantly slipping back. I'm not crazy, go look at any gameplay video and go frame by frame using the comma and period keys. You'll notice that any time the character's foot hits the ground while moving it'll slip about half its length backwards while the other leg is taking the next step.
 

FakeSympathy

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Alright, it's finally here, and I played a few hours into this

The atmosphere still looks great, now with more puddles and rain. The wet surfaces reflecting lights actually looks really great, without ray tracing.

The upper and lower belt system for the item wheel is still here, and this is still leaving me scratching my head. Because you'll be constantly switching between the two to select the item you want. This is especially annoying when you are in middle of combat, and you want to pul up the healing potion and weapon repair tool, you have to go through each slots to find it. Granted, it's only three items per belt so you won't have to search for long, but when every second counts especially during boss fights would you really want to look for the items?

The weapons themselves are great, now that we have more weapons and hilts to experiment with. This game has a feature wehere you get to craft your own weapon by combining the blade and thee hilt of the weapons. The blade affects the moveset while the hilt affects the stat scaling. This means you can create something like a sabre that swings like great sword, or a saw blade that strikes like a rapier. Granted some combinations will work better, but I found this to be interesting because everyone now can come up with their unique playstyle. Each blade has their own special moves too.

P-organ system, which you don't get until you beat a few bosses, are your skill tree. And as @CriticalGaming pointed out, some feels like obvious abilities that you should have from the beginning.

Legion arms are definitely interesting. Think of them as the firearms from Bloodbornes. There's a grapple hook, mine, a flamethrower, an explosive shield, and more. As you upgrade them, you'll unlock more powerful versions of the base abilities.

Last time I complained how weapons seem to have low durability and you have to sharpen/repair them to use them effectively. Well turns out this was because the game forces you to not relay on a single mechanic; The special moves needs charges which you get from attacking enemies, legion arms can be used limited times, dodge rolls become side steps when you lock on to enemies, etc.

As for the combat itself.... I do think the both the dodge window and the parry timing have been fixed. Because it sure feels easier to do both. HOWEVER, it is clear that the game still wants you to parry, or at least block. Because if you miss parry and block instead, that's still a reduced damage and you can quickly regain your HP by hitting them back. I think the enemy stamina can be broken in two ways; By doing the parries or hitting them with heavy attacks, with parry taking more tolls on their invisible stamina bar.

I don't think anyone will ever beat fromsoftware when it comes to souls-like, but I'd say this one's pretty damn good. Or I could be a whore for a game from South Korea
 
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CriticalGaming

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I did cave and buy it, but I bought it on PC so that if the jank is too much I can just Wemod my way through it. I also need something to invest me now that BG3 is done and I can't play MK1 for too long before my blistered thumbs scream at me.
 

CriticalGaming

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I made it to the hotel safe place in the game, basically the Hub like any Souls game. I was exploring around and found a locked door, but when I pushed on it I clipped through the door and sequence broke the game because there is a guy in here that I am currently supposed to be out looking for and rescuing. Good news is I found him. Bad news is I'm stuck in here now. Please send help.

PS. The dodge is worthless still.
 

CriticalGaming

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Update to the post above. Turns out that sequence break was quite significant in that I have reached the second boss for the game. After defeating the boss the game expects me to go back to the hotel and have that cut scene I accidentally triggered an hour ago. Because the cut scene wont trigger again, I cannot progress as the cut scene unlocks a bit of progression and provides a key for the next area.

Sorry Lies of P, I'm not interested in playing through your opening two hours again. Refund please Mr. Newell.
 

FakeSympathy

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Yeah, you have to beat the first boss to access. Have you tried teleporting to another stargazer (bonfire of this game)?

I have beaten the 4th boss. And I'm starting to think that the weapon crafting isn't all that cracked up to be. First off, there can be a terrible damage debuff if you combine incompatible parts. Secondly, some weapon creations do not feel right. But the unmodded weapon designs do look amazing.

They also felt the need to add a fucking platforming section, AND enemies with projectiles that can knock you off. It's like sen's fortress, only there;s way less room to maneuver around.

As for parry system, apparently you have to hold down the block button a bit longer to get the effective stagger break
 

mirbrownbread

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I have beaten the 4th boss. And I'm starting to think that the weapon crafting isn't all that cracked up to be. First off, there can be a terrible damage debuff if you combine incompatible parts. Secondly, some weapon creations do not feel right. But the unmodded weapon designs do look amazing.
Yeah, I found little point in frankesteining two weapons into a new one, each of the original versions are always better than the outcome. The handle "decides" which move set you'll get, and the blade is tied to the scaling (at last that's how I think it works). So, when I tried to attach the axe's handle to a rapier to get that defensive weapon art, the rapier also started "behaving" like an axe, and that felt wrong on so many levels lol

They also felt the need to add a fucking platforming section, AND enemies with projectiles that can knock you off. It's like sen's fortress, only there;s way less room to maneuver around.
Yup, that sudden difficulty spike was abruptly done. Way too enemies cramped together on tight spaces with no real way to combat them without taking cheap damage or using tons of throwable items (the ranged legion arm helped me there immensely). I'm way past that point now, and have yet to run into a similarly disappointing example of "copy-pasting-enemies-to-increase-the-difficulty" again. Hope it will keep this course till the end, I feel like I only got the final 5-10% to conquer...
 
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CriticalGaming

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Yeah, you have to beat the first boss to access. Have you tried teleporting to another stargazer (bonfire of this game)?

I have beaten the 4th boss. And I'm starting to think that the weapon crafting isn't all that cracked up to be. First off, there can be a terrible damage debuff if you combine incompatible parts. Secondly, some weapon creations do not feel right. But the unmodded weapon designs do look amazing.

They also felt the need to add a fucking platforming section, AND enemies with projectiles that can knock you off. It's like sen's fortress, only there;s way less room to maneuver around.

As for parry system, apparently you have to hold down the block button a bit longer to get the effective stagger break
I beat the giant cop robot. And the game even says to go back to the hotel.

The parry system is bad for one fundamental reason. Robots dont move predictably. It is a problem that both Surge games had as well where the robots would have attacks with no windup or signal and come out with stupid speed. It makes sense because they are robots obviously, machines dont need to wind up for attacks or movements because there is no natural mechanism for movement or power like an animal or human has. As a result sometimes they have a combo that has a 3rd hit to it and sometimes they dont and there doesnt seem to be any animation difference between them.

Lies of P has that same problem people had with Seikro in that the game expects you to win fights in one particular way and anything else is you being bad. And souls likes arent fun like that. Souls games are peak when a persons playstyle is rewarded. Whether you are a parry god, a dodge master, block brickhouse, whatever, all these things should get you by. But they wont, you can upgrade the dodge but the game doesnt like it and it still isnt great from what ive seen from lets plays. So it just feels like a limited choice.

I feel like your robot arms would have been a better parry solution. Hit L2 and time your strike with that robot arm like you would use the gun in Bloodborne and that would have been fine.

Also i notice a problem with the hit boxes of attack on several enemies. Namely that the attack doesnt "hot" you until the attack is through your body. For example the clown boss from the demo has a fist smash, and you arent hit if the fist hits you, you are hit when the fist hits the ground. This fucks with parry timing as you have to parry slightly later than you think. There are also big punchy mini boss robots, when they swing you dont take damage when the fist connects with the side of your body, but when the fist swings through to the middle of your body is when damage happens. So these hit boxes are less than half a second later than you expect them to be, and that is enough to fuck up the parry timing.

Im sure it's something you can get used to, but the gameplay annoyance and the progression bug ruined it for me.
 

Old_Hunter_77

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Lies of P has that same problem people had with Seikro in that the game expects you to win fights in one particular way and anything else is you being bad. And souls likes arent fun like that. Souls games are peak when a persons playstyle is rewarded. Whether you are a parry god, a dodge master, block brickhouse, whatever, all these things should get you by. But they wont, you can upgrade the dodge but the game doesnt like it and it still isnt great from what ive seen from lets plays. So it just feels like a limited choice.
Well maybe we branch off into a new genre- Sekiro-likes?
What matters to me at least is setting up expectations and delivering. Sekiro never suggests this play your own style thing, it is, from the first moment you get the sword, telling you to fight aggressive with parrying. And the mechanics are good enough to make that fair. Bloodborne too for that matter. If Lies of P is like that, I don't see the problem- the debate I'm seeing is IF the mechanics deliver in the way that Sekiro does.

I am curious those that played both Sekiro and Lies of P, have you played Wo Long? Because that is a game that I felt was going for the Sekiro experience but the mechanics were NOT fair or good or interesting so it failed for me. But some folks like it so I dunno.
 

CriticalGaming

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I am curious those that played both Sekiro and Lies of P, have you played Wo Long? Because that is a game that I felt was going for the Sekiro experience but the mechanics were NOT fair or good or interesting so it failed for me. But some folks like it so I dunno.
Yeah I hated Wo Long for a lot of the same reason.

Something about the parry timing and the unfair numbers of enemies in Wo Long made it unfun for me. I think that is a problem that other developers seem to have is that they lack the tightness of design that FromSoft implements to make these systems work. So they copy but don't make sure it's functional and feels good.

i didn't really like Sekiro but I played, beat, and got every achievement on steam for it. So it clicked enough with me that I didn't mind the parrying or anything like that. I still really really really didn't like that parrying was the only way to victory though, especially since it is such a punishing game when you make a mistake.

Lies of P has several small problems that add up as I discussed above in terms of it's design as well as what it wants from the player. I still think i could get used to it if I played through more of the game. However I hit that sequence break issue above and I'm just wasn't willing to replay the first two hours of the game all over again, let alone go further to have some other problem with a game I was forcing myself to give a chance to begin with.

If people end up liking Lies of P, cool. Unlike Starfield I can see good elements with Lies, I can see where some of the problems can be overlooked or not even noticed by people.
 

FakeSympathy

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Whenever a game asks me to parry, my muscle memories in my fingers automatically thinks hitting the block button harder means better defense. Now I am left with sore finger and forearm, and a controller with the not-so-great LB button (it was used to play other soulslike games).

I hate how stamina regen is tied to load weight. In soulsborne this is never the issue because regen speed only decreases when you pass a certain threshold (50% in DS, 70% in DS3, etc). But here, it is directly tied. This really sucks for strength-build like I'm going with, which is made all the worse by character movement speed. You are forced to sprint to get closer to the boss, but by the time you get there the stamina is depleted and you have to wait for it to slowly recover.

That unlock for dodge after knock down is utter bs; This is a core function that every soulsborne vets uses, and you have to spent quite the number of quartz to unlock.

I also think they bombed pretty hard with the translations. I mean take a look at the following for a particular amulet (equivalent to rings in souls games):
Has a chance of none being consumed when using Pulse Cells
I had to read that several times before fully understanding what's going on; Why not something like "Has a chance of pulse cell not being consumed"? In fact, some of the wordings, descriptions, and texts are pretty bad. And Koreans are known for going hard when learning English since their education days. So I wonder what's up with that?

@CriticalGaming, I could try to give you my save file and you can put it in your save folder (assuming we're both playing this on steam), and see if you can load it up. But I am unsure if you'll like my build so foar, and you'll also miss out on a rather large chunk of the game including item discoveries, bosses, and new areas.
 

CriticalGaming

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@CriticalGaming, I could try to give you my save file and you can put it in your save folder (assuming we're both playing this on steam), and see if you can load it up. But I am unsure if you'll like my build so foar, and you'll also miss out on a rather large chunk of the game including item discoveries, bosses, and new areas.
Hey man I appreciate the offer on that, but I've already got my money back. Thanks though.
 
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FakeSympathy

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So I have finally beaten this game. Admittingly, I've decided to cheat my way around the last portion of the game, because this game becomes a gauntlet run and I just couldn't take it anymore.

The story has been actually solid. There's no ambiguity like souls borne game, but rather a narrative that one can get behind on. There are many environmental and direct storytelling, and my god, they did a brilliant job with retelling the story of Pinoccio in a twisted way (granted the original book was pretty wacky, but this is taking it up the notch). Turns out there are multiple endings, and I got the bad ending which is:

Geppetto turns you into a "real boy" by killing you, taking your heart, and implating it into another version of you. This one is designed by Geppetto to obey his command, and the puppet, now with the name Carlos (which was the name of Geppetto's actual son), kills all the friendly human NPCs at the hotel krat. They are replaced with puppets who are forever programmed to serve you.

Also, post-credits scene: They teased the sequel/next project at the end; Apparently this game is part of a much larger world, connecting to other classic novels. The next one is The Wizard of Oz

The combat I felt was a hit or miss. Even with the improved parry window, I still think it's a flawed system. I really wish the game took after Sekiro more in that regard. It was also really unfair how the enemies could stun-lock me to death with their simple attacks, but my attacks only did a little damage and rarely did any stun lock.

The weapon and costume designs were great. The soundtrack is an absolute bomber.

I really want to like this game. I really do, especially my Korean pride is screaming at me to like it. But I just don't think it has the finesse of Bloodborne

I don't think I'll be interested in ng+ anytime soon. There's no feeling of accomplishment, just exhaustion
 
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