Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates
- Thread starter dreng3
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Timeline of conflict between Israel and Palestinians in Gaza
The Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas launched its biggest assault on Israel in years early on Saturday, firing a barrage of rockets from Gaza and sending fighters across the border.
www.reuters.com
Hamas has launched one of the biggest offensive operations in ~2 years from Gaza, consisting of 2,000 rockets (as of several hours ago) and multiple border crossings of several hundred gunmen (assisted by tractors to take down the fences). Hostages have also been taken, including within Israel, as several groups of gunmen have held up in border towns. Israel reports about 40 Israeli citizens dead.
In response, the IDF has launched airstrikes on Gaza, and local medical sources say about 160 Palestinians have died. The IDF claims to be targeting only terrorist holdouts, but we know they often attack indiscriminately or target civilian areas as well.
Good. I always say what the world needs is an escalating conflict between two religiously zealous nations hellbent on controlling a mystical holy land so their version of the same God can bring about doomsday.Timeline of conflict between Israel and Palestinians in Gaza
The Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas launched its biggest assault on Israel in years early on Saturday, firing a barrage of rockets from Gaza and sending fighters across the border.
Hamas has launched one of the biggest offensive operations in ~2 years from Gaza, consisting of 2,000 rockets (as of several hours ago) and multiple border crossings of several hundred gunmen (assisted by tractors to take down the fences). Hostages have also been taken, including within Israel, as several groups of gunmen have held up in border towns. Israel reports about 40 Israeli citizens dead.
In response, the IDF has launched airstrikes on Gaza, and local medical sources say about 160 Palestinians have died. The IDF claims to be targeting only terrorist holdouts, but we know they often attack indiscriminately or target civilian areas as well.
Really good use of time. Way to go 2023, you're living up to your 2020s siblings after all.
I recall reading a novel about a decade ago, it was written by a Swedish author and was titled Madame Terror, it detailed the exploits of a Palestenian funded submarine that launched several attacks on Israel, led by a Swedish commander. What struck me most when reading the aforementioned novel was that one of the most important ideals of the leader of the mission was that the crew was never to use religion as a cause, that they were to always dress in uniform, and that they were to only target military targets.
What Hamas has done will set back the Palestinian cause by decades (Or maybe even end any possibility of compromise). These actions are reprehensible and unjustifiable. Palestine and Palestinians might have a right to defend themselves against an occupying force, but what we're hearing about is terrorism, not warfare, not defense, just straight up terrorism.
What Hamas has done will set back the Palestinian cause by decades (Or maybe even end any possibility of compromise). These actions are reprehensible and unjustifiable. Palestine and Palestinians might have a right to defend themselves against an occupying force, but what we're hearing about is terrorism, not warfare, not defense, just straight up terrorism.
I sort of get what you're saying at one level, but what do they have to lose? Much of their land has already been stolen, which they'll never get back. Even much of the land (certainly the most economically useful) the international community agrees is theirs they'll never have returned willingly, and every year their occupiers knowingly slice more and more territory off them permanently.
Palestine is just a massive prison camp. People talk this shit about political process, but there is no political process - at least in terms of the Palestinians getting any meaningful resolution. Let's face it, no-one (with meaningful influence) is remotely interested in bringing Israel to heel. The Palestinians are just expected to be nice and compliant as Israel methodically strips them of everything they have worth a damn and the international community wring their hands and spout vapid objections. The only end to the Israel - Palestine conflict on the cards currently is the genocide of the Palestinians.
So, what does anyone really expect? Yeah, they're going to go out and kill Israelis, because what the hell else do they have to do but endure slow strangulation?
I do agree, the Palestinian people have nothing left to lose, but if you're going to walk the path of violence you could, at least, do it the proper way, targeted assassinations, attacks on military bases/targets, not going on about god or religion when talking justification, and, last but not least, making it appear as military action, not individual operations by militants.
I want a free Palestine, regardless of religion, but I also acknowledge that a free Palestine must have international recognition, as such you cannot rely on terrorist actions to liberate yourselves, instead you must capitalize on the mistakes of your enemies and make it clear that you are fighting a war in accordance with the international rules of warfare.
While it is a work of fiction I'd strongly recommend *Madame Terror* to anyone as it makes a great example of how conflict is perceived and how conflict actually occurs.
Target installations that are purely military, provide swift, and logical, explanation for the attacks, and make sure that you present a positive image. That way you'll have internation opinion on your side.
One of the reasons that Russia is losing the battle in Ukraine is that they're seen as unreasonable and unjustified. Palestine has a reasonable Casus Belli and can refer back to, or even offer to accept, earlier agreements with Israel.
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But this is the place where Brian lost his sandal !!
Hamas launches surprise land, air and sea attack on Israel
Hamas claimed responsibility for the unprecedented assault, which the militants said involved 5,000 rockets and infiltration across the border.
Thank you Biden for giving Iran access to their sanctioned 6 billion dollars to give more missiles to Hamas, and Hezbollah so that American troops will eventually have to waste more money getting deployed to the Middle East for "peacekeeping ops", and protecting MBS because he doesn't know how to run an effective military.
Iran then proceeded to hold hostage more Iranian Americans to extort the US for more money.
Meanwhile...
The Palestinians under Hamas have no meaningful say over being ruled by Hamas. Hamas is not a democracy. Nor can I really argue that the Israeli occupation isn't terrorism. They just disposses, destroy and kill as they please. Seanchaidh has put enough valid posts in this thread about Israeli soldiers murdering inconvenient Palestinians without so much as a slap on the wrist.
Although many Palestinians do support Hamas. Nor do I think the average comfy, middle class Westerner has any real understanding of what it is to live in permanent oppression, with our people murdered and dispossed regularly, for four long and painful generations. We have no idea what this is like, but when I empathise it doesn't take much to realise that inclination to violent resistance is not just likely, it's pretty much an inevitability. Just in case we were under any confusion, the Israelis (who are getting vastly the better of things, with the casualty ratio roughly in the region of 1:10) are increasingly openly wishing death on the Palestinians. So what must the frustration and anger be like for the losers?
Shame to say, but the most important outcome from this will come from the impact it will have on current Israel government. Will the population rally around the governement, letting them pass their authoritarian reform, or will they blame the government for missing the massive invasion incoming? That will be more important to the future of the strip than anything Hamas could accomplish.
All right, I will defend Israel, but only in a roundabout way.
I hate that Israel is becoming a proto-democracy like Hungary, and I despise their insistence on hard-handed measures when they could literally just put cameras everywhere like everyone else is doing(UK, China, US cities, etc.), and react then respond. It's clear to me the Israeli right wing wants to ethnically cleanse the region of Palestinians.
The truth in terms of international relations is that neighbors hate neighbors unless someone stronger forces them to cooperate. Biden is too busy with China, and Russia, and people like Jake Sullivan think the Middle East is a time-sink that will lose relevance as people switch to EVs, renewables, and nuclear and soon after reusable rockets and space. Will the shipping lanes be important; yes, but that's not the point. The EU is rare, the AU is rare, and NAFTA/USMCA is rare. In most of history, it looked like my group hated your group, and that's still true in business.
The only thing the US government, my government can do at this point is lower the carnage. Every president wants to solve Israel and Palestine. It's not happening because stubbornness, and religiously run deep for both sides.
Unless atheism becomes more of a thing you and I will die and both sides will still be killing each other over holy land as has happened many times in history over said holy land.
I hate that Israel is becoming a proto-democracy like Hungary, and I despise their insistence on hard-handed measures when they could literally just put cameras everywhere like everyone else is doing(UK, China, US cities, etc.), and react then respond. It's clear to me the Israeli right wing wants to ethnically cleanse the region of Palestinians.
The truth in terms of international relations is that neighbors hate neighbors unless someone stronger forces them to cooperate. Biden is too busy with China, and Russia, and people like Jake Sullivan think the Middle East is a time-sink that will lose relevance as people switch to EVs, renewables, and nuclear and soon after reusable rockets and space. Will the shipping lanes be important; yes, but that's not the point. The EU is rare, the AU is rare, and NAFTA/USMCA is rare. In most of history, it looked like my group hated your group, and that's still true in business.
The only thing the US government, my government can do at this point is lower the carnage. Every president wants to solve Israel and Palestine. It's not happening because stubbornness, and religiously run deep for both sides.
Unless atheism becomes more of a thing you and I will die and both sides will still be killing each other over holy land as has happened many times in history over said holy land.
This isn't really true.
The USA doesn't give a shit about the Palestinians. The USA has two major concerns - firstly that it be seen to roughly adhere to the postwar international order it created (and through which it extends a huge amount of its influence) and secondly keeping a lid on volatility in a part of the world that supplies a lot of oil. We could add a sort of third, which is meeting domestic expectations in return for votes, which means supporting Israel. The Israeli PM could literally spit in the face of the US president and it would have no significant repercusssions for his country.
The US president could leverage a vast amount of influence against Israel. It will not do so, because it is not in the geopolitical interests of the USA to do so (Middle Eastern defence strategy, intelligence sharing, etc.) and furthermore risks domestic support from American voters. Thus exists the context for your statement: "every president wants to solve Israel and Palestine [...but not that much]".
If the US cared about oil, it would let Iran, and Venezuela sell their oil on the international markets. Also, war is bad for international shipping. The US is trying to get past oil in the sense that it doesn't want to be blackmailed for it. As for Palestine, it's a little more nuanced than that. Most American presidents are a bit narcissistic, and will openly go against their interests sometimes for brownie points. If Teddy Roosevelt had let Japan and Russia kill each other during the Russo-Japanese War in a grander way and weakened both of their rivals that would have been self-interested, but he did the opposite and created a peace deal. Similarly, the US could have just not signed the Iran Nuclear Deal and just weakened Iran economically while bombing the Iranian nuclear research buildings with B2 Bombers to prevent Iranian Nuclear blackmail while getting Black Market transfers of their oil to keep oil prices somewhat steady in exchange for Saudi Oil lowering oil prices at the gas station back home, but Obama signed the JCPOA which gave Iran a chance to be more powerful economically and thus militarily against US policy of keeping a hegemon down in the Middle East, Asia, and Europe. (And likely also Latin America)
Yeah that Iran deal was only 3 weeks ago. That money still hasn't been released, the US still has it(although I think the accounts are in South Korea). And even if it was freed, no way Iran laundered 6 billion to Hamas, who then turned around and used it to buy thousands of missiles, had them smuggled into Gaza all the while training up regiments of militants and getting their equipment, all in the span of three weeks.Hamas launches surprise land, air and sea attack on Israel
Hamas claimed responsibility for the unprecedented assault, which the militants said involved 5,000 rockets and infiltration across the border.www.nbcnews.com
Thank you Biden for giving Iran access to their sanctioned 6 billion dollars to give more missiles to Hamas, and Hezbollah so that American troops will eventually have to waste more money getting deployed to the Middle East for "peacekeeping ops", and protecting MBS because he doesn't know how to run an effective military.
Iran then proceeded to hold hostage more Iranian Americans to extort the US for more money.
Meanwhile...
Yeah this invasion was a mini Normandy. It was in the planning for months if not years.
But maybe the fact the documents Saudi Arabia purchased from Jared Kushner for billions of dollars was reportedly about Israel missile defenses has something to do with it.
People don't kill each other over religion, people invent religion so they have a reason to kill each others. Look at Muslim, it didn't take long for them to split into two faction over something insignificant just so they could fight each others. Even if they all became atheist they would just find some other reason to kill each others.