Well, I've never visited the region so I could not say with any degree of certainty of hospitals in Gaza specifically have these systems. All I know is they are fairly common and I did not think it outside the realm of possibility this particular hospital had it.
Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates
- Thread starter dreng3
- Start date
Yeah because it would kill more people than what Hamas did. The exact definition of an overreaction. Israel already killed more people than Hamas did to them.
This is just trying to weasel out of the extremely broad nature of the original accusation.
I didn't even say it was a 'personal attack', you added that description and kept talking about "offence" later. I just said it was an accusation which included perfectly innocent, moderate people I know. Which is undeniably true.
At no point did I ever, ever say embassy burnings were fine in any circumstances, not just "in a vacuum".
You keep trying to shift this onto "equivocation", which isn't the same thing and is highly subjective. Stop it-- either try to defend the original accusation or drop it.
All right at this point, I ate my sleeping pills so I am losing wakefulness fast, but I am just going to say this. The world is full of bad governments, and bad leaders. The standard state of man unlike what you see in Star Wars or Marvel is a gravity towards 'strong leaders' who butcher people in wars that may be defensive but oftentimes are offensive. It's biased towards dictatorships. Right now as I speak most of the world is a dictatorship, and it's only going to get worse as climate change this us hard in the near future, and the medium term, and perhaps even the long term as resources dwindled. What Hamas did was salvage, but what Israel does in response will determine what happens in the future, and will set a precedent on how much any government be it democratic or autocratic can commit mass murder. This will cascade in the future. Israel has already killed twice as many as Hamas killed, and I doubt even 10 percent of those bombed are even Hamas who are likely hiding in tunnels and basements like the hostages. Also, this isn't even the end of the beginning for the killings of Gazans.
If you want to do something about this write to your senator, and the House of Representatives congressional district rep if you are American, your MEP, and or MP if you are British. Just write to anyone who has the smallest ability to control trade with Israel, or foreign aid funding to the IDF, and if you're in a small country write to your local UN office rep for your country.
Also please vote for fewer Hawks and more doves.
All right I am too tired to write more. Peace the fuck out.
If you want to do something about this write to your senator, and the House of Representatives congressional district rep if you are American, your MEP, and or MP if you are British. Just write to anyone who has the smallest ability to control trade with Israel, or foreign aid funding to the IDF, and if you're in a small country write to your local UN office rep for your country.
Also please vote for fewer Hawks and more doves.
All right I am too tired to write more. Peace the fuck out.
The "original accusation," as you put it, described verified events. It's not an "accusation" to depict things that are true. You've spent more time being offended than actually dealing with the "accusation" as you put it. I'm not trying to "weasel out" of anything when the "original accusation" isn't something I wrote.
Right. So you were "targeted" by the accusations (your words, not mine), but it's not a "personal attack." You're engaging in a semantic difference between being "targeted" and "personally attacked" in this context. And yes, clearly you are offended, be it on your own behalf, the behalf of people you know, or both. You don't get to spend page after page being offended, and then claim I'm insisting you're offended.
And as for the accusation including people you know...sure, okay. Noah Smith was targeting your friends specifically. In an article that doesn't even mention the UK by name, which focuses entirely on events within the US and Australia (in regards to leftist reactions, and it's debatable as to whether the Opera House debacle even counts), in an article that has the requisite "not all X," you're still taking umbrage when, by your own admission, you wouldn't be as worked up if it wasn't your 'team.'
I mean, seriously, what's even the endgame here? You haven't actually disputed the events that took place, you haven't disputed that anti-semitism exists on the left, you haven't actually made a counter-argument, your entire position seems to be taking offence on your and/or other people's behalf. Saying "I'm offended" isn't an argument. If you are offended...okay, and? I'd be astonished if anyone managed to go through life and not be offended by things people write because of association.
...and using those events, went further in ascribing rabid anti-semitism to a broad group of unrelated people.
There's nothing more tiresome than endlessly insisting opponents must be "offended" because they objected to something. Its just so much blah.
Didn't say he's talking about the people I know specifically. He's obviously not. Why not try engaging with what I actually said instead?
He's not talking about these people specifically. But he described a group, which includes these people, in a generalising and inaccurate way. You see the difference there? You see how generalised statements work, and how they tar broad groups without singling individuals out? "Schoolteachers are alcoholics" doesn't single out my high school history teacher... but the statement covers her, and wrongly so.
You're literally the only person here talking about "offence".
I like how, "the IDF is lying" became crickets chirping.
Turns out the only part that was struck was a parking lot, there were not 500 casualties, it was not an IDF rocket.
To all the people here that jumped to conclusions.
That little video shows bugger all. Why would we trust that random Twitter guy over the health ministry and numerous independent reporters all corroborating?
The blast centred on the car park, yes-- but Associated Press have already provided video of the building engulfed in the resulting flames and numerous bodies. No sides nor any credible reporting disputes that the casualties are very high.
The source of the blast isn't certain yet-- perhaps i shouldn't have first reported it as a UAF attack. But its notable that the UAF has already bombed numerous hospitals, and the IDF had even shelled this one (as a "warning") beforehand.
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Not a single major newspaper has questioned that the hospital itself was hit or contradicted the claim of hundreds of dead. They didn't all confirm the latter, but if there was any proof otherwise or even serious doubt, we would hear it from every corner. If only the parking lot was hit, we would know that by now. The only thing reported were the contradicting claims about who was responsible.
I mean, do you really think that people like Biden, Scholz and Macron would demand an inquiry into the attack, when every single information agency can trivially disprove it ?
Don't go to Twitter for news.
I mean, do you really think that people like Biden, Scholz and Macron would demand an inquiry into the attack, when every single information agency can trivially disprove it ?
Don't go to Twitter for news.
You mean like this?
President Biden wraps up his visit to wartime Israel with a warning against being 'consumed' by rage
President Joe Biden swept into wartime Israel for a 7 1/2-hour visit Wednesday that offered support for the Israeli people and produced a deal to get limited humanitarian aid into Gaza from Egypt, potentially by the end of the week.
apnews.com
Or this?
IDF tells world: This is how Islamic Jihad destroyed the Gaza hospital
The chief spokesman presented actual audio recordings in which Islamic Jihad members say out loud that they are responsible for the explosion.
www.jpost.com
Holy shit guys, I picked the tweet because it has a picture.
I... don't see how you think these links dispute the severity of the attack. These are just claims about responsibility.You mean like this?
President Biden wraps up his visit to wartime Israel with a warning against being 'consumed' by rage
President Joe Biden swept into wartime Israel for a 7 1/2-hour visit Wednesday that offered support for the Israeli people and produced a deal to get limited humanitarian aid into Gaza from Egypt, potentially by the end of the week.
Or this?
IDF tells world: This is how Islamic Jihad destroyed the Gaza hospital
The chief spokesman presented actual audio recordings in which Islamic Jihad members say out loud that they are responsible for the explosion.
Holy shit guys, I picked the tweet because it has a picture.
Also, have you checked those online newspapers recently? Notice more vague wording? Also, also, I responded to a post that sourced... A tweet. Yet it only matters if I use a tweet?
Honestly, it's like I'm reading different text on the page. These browser addons are getting out of hand.
I did check online newspapers recently, yes. Last time directly before i answered because i didn't want to look like an idiot. Didn't notice more vague wording.
As for tweets
- You will find that i never post tweets as news source
- You will also find that i did not take the tweet you responded to as a fact
I generally double check news from tweet that other people post if those news are of interest for me. Always doubt them.
As for demanding inquiry :
https://www.politico.eu/article/ger...stigation-gaza-al-ahli-hospital-israel-hamas/
https://www.rfi.fr/en/international...-city-hospital-biden-s-jordan-visit-cancelled
https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-heads-middle-east-inflamed-by-gaza-hospital-blast-2023-10-18/
And yes, while Biden did eventually say that he believes the Israelian version, he still acknowledged that this was far from consensus and needs further digging. But even he did not question the death of hundreds in the attack or that the hospital itself was hit.
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I dunno, if I'm betting between:
"Hamas/Islamic Jihad launched one of the biggest rockets in their arsenal and not only did it misfire but it careened into a parking lot full of refugees causing the single largest mass casualty event caused by any Gazan rocket by over an order of magnitude"
vs
"The IDF, who told the hospital to evacuate, had already shelled the hospital as a warning, and who famously doesn't give a shit about dozens of civilian casualties as long as they got "warned" first, put a doorknocker into a parking lot that wasn't as empty as they thought and scrabbled together a rush of bad propoganda to cover it up"
I feel like the latter is a safe bet. Maybe I'm just biased after hearing weeks of IDF defenders justifying IDF bombs hitting other hospitals recently, I dunno. Like, a week and a half of people arguing why pulling Palestinian kids out of apartment block rubble is justifiable to get at Hamas doesn't engender a lot of benefit of the doubt
"Hamas/Islamic Jihad launched one of the biggest rockets in their arsenal and not only did it misfire but it careened into a parking lot full of refugees causing the single largest mass casualty event caused by any Gazan rocket by over an order of magnitude"
vs
"The IDF, who told the hospital to evacuate, had already shelled the hospital as a warning, and who famously doesn't give a shit about dozens of civilian casualties as long as they got "warned" first, put a doorknocker into a parking lot that wasn't as empty as they thought and scrabbled together a rush of bad propoganda to cover it up"
I feel like the latter is a safe bet. Maybe I'm just biased after hearing weeks of IDF defenders justifying IDF bombs hitting other hospitals recently, I dunno. Like, a week and a half of people arguing why pulling Palestinian kids out of apartment block rubble is justifiable to get at Hamas doesn't engender a lot of benefit of the doubt
Gaza hospital: What video, pictures and other evidence tell us about Al-Ahli hospital blast
BBC Verify is analysing evidence from the Al-Ahli hospital explosion amid competing claims over responsibility.
www.google.com
Did not the IDF also claim responsibility immediately afterwards, before the backlash forced them to backpedal?
You need to look at that image for yourself. The current timeline of IDF statements are
We blew up a hospital because Hamas was hiding there.
It was a misfired Hamas rocket.
We warned them to evacuate the hospital.
Here are videos of a misfired Hamas rocket.
OK, the timestamps/years are wrong. Here is the actual video of the misfired Hamas rocket.
OK, that video also has the wrong timestamp.
The death toll is exaggerated.
Here is a supposed call between two Hamas agents with perfect clarity discussing the rocket explosion in excruciating detail, including names and locations, with terms like "Israeli shrapnel."
We bombed the hospital garage, but there were no direct hits on the hospital.
Since the IDF has changed their story about once an hour, I'm not particularly inclined to believe them, especially when the counter claim, "Israel bombed our hospital" lines up really really well with what the IDF is doing in Palestine right now, which is blowing up foreign hospitals. MSF, who are a neutral third party, have already mentioned that Israel is threatening to blow them up. It's not a stretch to think that here, and Israel keeps changing their answer. Also their first answer was "we did it" before they started getting backlash.
So it seems like a backroom deal was made - Israel allows a safe corridor for humanitarian aid and support to come into Gaza, and in exchange the US puts out "intelligence" reports "proving" Hamas was behind the hospital bombing, despite the IDF claiming responsibility before the death toll was known.