Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

[Gordon_4]

Making it basically impossible for leading politicians to travel much of the world is already quite an achievement. It also makes it harder in many countries to continue supporting a government made of wanted criminals or to pretend that Israel is doing nothing wrong.

There might also be secondary rules in various organizations and companies that forbid certain interaction with wanted war criminals.

The only place Netanyahu and Gallant at this stage care about visiting is the United States - who you will note is not a signatory of the ICC - and if they need to go anywhere that is, they’ll just send their deputies in their stead: so that’s a wash. And the two guys from Hamas are likely registered as terrorists in any country that gives a shit so in their case the ICC warrant changes fuck all.

 

[Thaluikhain]

The only place Netanyahu and Gallant at this stage care about visiting is the United States - who you will note is not a signatory of the ICC - and if they need to go anywhere that is, they’ll just send their deputies in their stead: so that’s a wash.

And I'd not bet on many countries doing anything if they decided to pop by anyway.

 

[Seanchaidh]

This is true, though I suspect you know as well as I do that to request a warrant for the Israeli PM and not the perpetrators of 7th October would annihilate the Court's International standing and credibility, and along with it any hope of accomplishing its aims-- including those concerning Netanyahu and Gallant.

umm, no? Or do you mean just mean white countries by 'international standing and credibility'?

 

[Casual Shinji]

And what do they expect to achieve with this beyond making performative noises? There’s no organisation that can go into Israel or Gaza to arrest any of these people and none of them will have reason or be stupid enough to go to a foreign country that would action the warrant.

It lends official legitimacy to the claim that Israel is in fact commiting genocide, which many leaders in the West (all of them really) are still ignoring/excusing. This can now no longer be attributed to "anti-semitism" or "dumb college kids", it's the ICC that's saying this and making the "rational, democracy-loving" leaders of Europe and America look like they have the biggest egg on their face.

 

[Thaluikhain]

This can now no longer be attributed to "anti-semitism" or "dumb college kids",

People who believed that before will most likely believe that after.

 

[Casual Shinji]

People who believed that before will most likely believe that after.

Not without looking like complete hypocrites. But more importantly, it allows countries like Russia to hold America and Europe to account for supporting a warrent against Putin but not Netanyahu. Or better yet Hamas; if the ICC is wrong about Netanyahu, does that mean they're wrong about Hamas? Would America go as far as to call into question the entirety of the ICC and all of its judgements just to protect Israel? This is all exposing the utter rot of Western powers to even more people, and that's a very good thing.

Not that I'm at all on the side of Russia or Hamas, but at this point I'm kinda done in toeing the line for the West. If we have to accept a genocide to maintain the sliver of democracy that still exists then fuck that. I'd say I hope Biden loses, but then the guy barely has three more years left in him. Fuck him, fuck America, and fuck Europe.

 

[Satinavian]

But more importantly, it allows countries like Russia to hold America and Europe to account for supporting a warrent against Putin but not Netanyahu.

The US has condemned the warrant, but none of the Europeans. Not even Germany.

 

[Casual Shinji]

The US has condemned the warrant, but none of the Europeans. Not even Germany.

Yes, Europe's role in this (the genocide of Gaza) has been to just not say anything, but I'm sure they let their support known for when Putin got that warrant. The best we'll hear from Europe is 'this conflict is complicated, but Israel has a right to defend itself'.

 

[Silvanus]

And what do they expect to achieve with this beyond making performative noises? There’s no organisation that can go into Israel or Gaza to arrest any of these people and none of them will have reason or be stupid enough to go to a foreign country that would action the warrant.

The Israeli government is able to carry out atrocities like the bombing of Gaza precisely because it enjoys overwhelming material and moral support from a range of Western governments. One of the only ways to weaken or ultimately break that would be to legally isolate them.

Besides which, the warrants may not be actioned during this war, but situations change. The ICC has successfully actioned warrants against figures who were untouchable when the warrants were first issued.

 

[Silvanus]

umm, no? Or do you mean just mean white countries by 'international standing and credibility'?

I mean most ICC signatories globally. That includes parties in the global South who have been most active in holding Israel to account, such as South Africa, welcoming the warrant requests.

 

[Seanchaidh]

I mean most ICC signatories globally. That includes parties in the global South who have been most active in holding Israel to account, such as South Africa, welcoming the warrant requests.

elaborate.

 

[Silvanus]

elaborate.

Khan's move has been welcomed by South Africa, the African Union, and Lawyers for Palestinian Human Rights among others. So no, its not just "white countries".

 

[Seanchaidh]

Khan's move has been welcomed by South Africa, the African Union, and Lawyers for Palestinian Human Rights among others. So no, its not just "white countries".

And you believe that warrants for Netanyahu and Gallant by themselves would have 'destroyed the standing and credibility' of the ICC in the eyes of those countries and that group because..?

 

[Silvanus]

And you believe that warrants for Netanyahu and Gallant by themselves would have 'destroyed the standing and credibility' of the ICC in the eyes of those countries and that group because..?

Because, though you may wish it were otherwise, there was very broad international condemnation of October 7th, including amongst those governments and entities that have been keenly involved in opposing Israel's atrocities in Gaza, and opponents of the US.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Because, though you may wish it were otherwise, there was very broad international condemnation of October 7th, including amongst those governments and entities that have been keenly involved in opposing Israel's atrocities in Gaza, and opponents of the US.

That is an astonishingly weak justification for your belief.

 

[Satinavian]

And you believe that warrants for Netanyahu and Gallant by themselves would have 'destroyed the standing and credibility' of the ICC in the eyes of those countries and that group because..?

Because that would have been seen as arbitrary and partisan. That is the last thing the ICC which fully has to rely on countries to enforce anything can afford. If it is seen as a tool of any political block of nations, no one else will be caring for its decision.

Furthermore, a couple of African countries that have so far supported the ICC still have their own Islamist terrorists (even if most off the world doesn't care) and would not be happy about middle eastern terrorists getting a pass just to spite the US (which they also care not that much about. If it was to spite France, that would be a different matter for some currently)

 

[Silvanus]

That is an astonishingly weak justification for your belief.

I suspect that, as is often the case, you're substituting the belief I've actually expressed with something else. It's completely uncontroversial to say that the vast majority of governments around the world would want the perpetrators of October 7th to see some kind of reckoning. There's been next-to-nil complaint from the political world about the ICC including Hamas.

 

[Silvanus]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/panicked-gaza-hospital-staff-evacuate-patients-after-missile-strike-video-shows-2024-05-21/

Kamala Adwan hospital has been under some form of seige since last year, but was yesterday struck by 3-4 Israeli missiles.

Remember when there was wrangling back-and-forths and denials over whether the IDF attacked one hospital? Now reports of IDF strikes on populated hospitals are routine, and the denials don't even bother to materialise.

 

[XsjadoBlaydette]

Norway, Ireland, Spain to recognise Palestinian state

The three European countries will formally enact recognition on May 28 despite Israel’s warnings of the consequences.

www.aljazeera.com

Norway, Ireland, Spain to recognise Palestinian state
The three European countries will formally enact recognition on May 28 despite Israel’s warnings of the consequences.


The leaders of Norway, Ireland and Spain have said their countries will formally recognise Palestine as a state next week for the sake of “peace in the Middle East“, prompting Israel to immediately recall its envoys.

Norway’s Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Store said on Wednesday that a two-state solution was in Israel’s best interest and the recognition of Palestinian statehood would come as of May 28.


“There cannot be peace in the Middle East if there is no recognition,” he said in Oslo.

Ireland’s prime minister Simon Harris made a similar announcement in Dublin, as did Spain’s Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez in Madrid, to applause in parliament.

“In the midst of a war, with tens of thousands killed and injured [in Gaza], we must keep alive the only alternative that offers a political solution for Israelis and Palestinians alike: Two states, living side by side, in peace and security,” Gahr Store said.

“Recognition of Palestine is a means of supporting the moderate forces which have been losing ground in this protracted and brutal conflict,” he said.

Harris told a news conference: “I’m confident that further countries will join us in taking this important step in the coming weeks.”

Ireland’s foreign minister Micheal Martin said on X that the recognition will take place on May 28.

Sanchez, while announcing that Spain’s council of ministers would also recognise an independent Palestinian state on May 28, accused his Israeli counterpart Benjamin Netanyahu of putting the two-state solution in “danger” with his policy of “pain and destruction” in Gaza.

“We hope that our recognition and our reasons contribute to other Western countries to follow this path, because the more we are, the more strength we will have to impose a ceasefire,” Sanchez said.

Harris also said that Ireland was unequivocal in recognising Israel’s right to exist “securely and in peace with its neighbours”, and called for all captives in Gaza to be immediately returned.

“But let me also be clear, Hamas is not the Palestinian people … a two-state solution is the only way out of the generational cycles of violence, retaliation and resentment,” he added.

At least 35,709 people have been killed and 79,990 wounded in Israeli attacks on Gaza since October 7. The death toll in Israel from Hamas’s October 7 attack is 1,139, with dozens still held captive.



Al Jazeera’s Imran Khan, reporting from Amman, Jordan, because Israel’s government has banned Al Jazeera, said that Malta and Slovenia were also expected to make similar announcements.

“This is a momentous occasion for the Palestinians,” he said.

“It’s perhaps unsurprising that Norway has taken the lead on this because they were behind the Oslo Accords – the agreement in 1993 that really did two things: it recognised the Palestine Liberation Organization, the PLO, as the legitimate representatives of the Palestinian people,” Khan added.

Al Jazeera’s Diplomatic Editor James Bays said the move by the three countries was significant for two reasons: “momentum and timing”.

“Just look at the week that Prime Minister Netanyahu has had,” he said, referring to the International Criminal Court (ICC) prosecutor’s announcement that he was seeking an arrest warrant for the Israeli leader, among others, and the International Court of Justice (ICJ) hearings on South Africa’s request for a ruling to stop the Israeli offensive in Rafah, southern Gaza.

Saudi Arabia and Jordan welcomed the decision.

Reporting from Ramallah in the occupied West Bank, Al Jazeera’s Nida Ibrahim said it is seen as a great step, on paper, “that is very much welcomed on the street”.

“However, great diplomatic moves won’t change the reality for Palestinians on the ground” amid intensifying Israeli attacks, Ibrahim said.

“If we take Jenin, for example, in the north of the occupied West Bank, it is suffering the repercussions of a second day of an Israeli raid.”

Israeli warning
Israel immediately announced it was recalling its envoys to Ireland and Norway for “urgent consultations”.

“Today, I am sending a sharp message to Ireland and Norway: Israel will not go over this in silence,” Foreign Minister Israel Katz said in a statement, adding that he planned to do the same with the Spanish ambassador.

The Israeli foreign ministry had earlier posted a video message addressed to Ireland on X warning that “recognising a Palestinian state risks turning you into a pawn in the hands of Iran and Hamas”, adding the move would “only fuel extremism and instability”.

Israel has said plans for Palestinian recognition constitute a “prize for terrorism” that would reduce the chances of a negotiated resolution to the war in Gaza, which began on October 7 when Hamas fighters stormed into southern Israel.

Hussein al-Sheikh, the secretary-general of the executive committee of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), posted on X: “Historical moments in which the free world triumphs for truth and justice after long decades of Palestinian national struggle, suffering, pain, occupation, racism, murder, oppression, abuse and destruction to which the people of Palestine were subjected.”

Hamas called the decision by the three countries an “important step”.

Palestinian politician Mustafa Barghouti said it was a “powerful political and symbolically significant step” that moved the achievement of “freedom and justice” closer for the Palestinian people.

“This is also a blow to Netanyahu and his extreme government, and to the fascists in his government … It means the acts of fascism and extremism in the Israeli government has no future,” he told Al Jazeera.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Zionists love mistranslating things.

I suspect that, as is often the case, you're substituting the belief I've actually expressed with something else. It's completely uncontroversial to say that the vast majority of governments around the world would want the perpetrators of October 7th to see some kind of reckoning. There's been next-to-nil complaint from the political world about the ICC including Hamas.

Not being bothered is a far cry from 'destroying the standing and credibility' if the court simply doesn't do a thing.