US 2024 Presidential Election

Agema

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Well as I've gotten older I've determined that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results so while it's ultimately a futile gesture in the end, I'm going to vote for someone who isn't going to just keep giving Israel a blank check to do whatever the fuck they want to do.
Well, I dare say if Trump gets in, there might be a good chance that something different will occur: Israel will be left absolutely free to mass ethnically cleanse the Palestinians from swathes of their current territories. It's not like there aren't already people mooting expulsion of Gazans into Egypt (whether Egypt likes it or not).

Thus insanity resolved!
 

Phoenixmgs

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Funny how quickly you went from "it's not happening" to "it doesn't matter."
Clarence Thomas disagrees. And he (along with those of the same political persuasion) has a great deal more influence over it.
It's not going to go anywhere. The article cites Due Process Clause does not secure any substantive rights but that's not the only argument in Obergefell. They keep you all up in arms about this stuff so you're not up in arms about the far more important stuff.

In the US this is a matter of state law. I'm actually in one of the few states where it isn't illegal, and it's not illegal indirectly because of gay rights. We used to have a "crimes against nature" type law that rendered various sorts of otherwise unrelated taboo sexual conduct illegal. This included but was not limited to LGBTQ stuff, and in support of gay rights we repealed it. And the bit about bestiality has just never been passed again in a new law, so technically it's legal here so long as what you are doing wouldn't otherwise also count as regular old animal abuse on it's own without.



You can, it just requires finding that porn necessarily fails the Miller test and cracking down on "obscenity" because it isn't protected.



You mean that law that was passed in response to Roe being overturned specifically to try to protect gay marriage from an attack on Obergefell?

For anything in Project 2025 that you expect SCOTUS to protect from happening, recall that several justices are either connected to the same organiztion that produced Project 2025 or are at least ideologically aligned with it. So, expecting them to go against what Project 2025 sggests feels less likely than the opposite.
Porn isn't going to "pass" the Miller test.

That's the point, you can make a law if you're worried about the Supreme Court doing something you don't like. How long did both parties run on protecting/overturning Roe? The democrats could've just passed an abortion law the whole time.

Why are you so concerned with Project 2025, they've been making this document every election cycle for over 40 years. Why is it now suddenly something to be scared about?
 
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Dirty Hipsters

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It's not going to go anywhere. The article cites Due Process Clause does not secure any substantive rights but that's not the only argument in Obergefell. They keep you all up in arms about this stuff so you're not up in arms about the far more important stuff.
Which is the same thing that you kept saying about abortion before it was overturned. It's like you've learned nothing. It's the same situation all over again, with the same decision makers, who have already expressed that they feel they have the right to reexamine (read overturn) the law if they wish.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Which is the same thing that you kept saying about abortion before it was overturned. It's like you've learned nothing. It's the same situation all over again, with the same decision makers, who have already expressed that they feel they have the right to reexamine (read overturn) the law if they wish.
When did I say that? I knew Roe was argued horribly and should be overturned. Roe was something that was just a matter of time to be overturned.
 

tippy2k2

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Well, I dare say if Trump gets in, there might be a good chance that something different will occur: Israel will be left absolutely free to mass ethnically cleanse the Palestinians from swathes of their current territories. It's not like there aren't already people mooting expulsion of Gazans into Egypt (whether Egypt likes it or not).

Thus insanity resolved!
As opposed to right now where...Israel is free to mass ethnically cleanse the Palestinians from swathes of their current territories...

But it's the same Democrat song and dance except this time it includes genocide; vote for "The Lesser of Two Evils" and hope that one day they'll stop being evil. It's been their entire strategy for the last 20some years and since it keeps working, I suppose they have no reason to do anything else.
 
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Thaluikhain

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But it's the same Democrat song and dance except this time it includes genocide; vote for "The Lesser of Two Evils" and hope that one day they'll stop being evil.
Was hoping one day they'll stop being evil part of the promise? I thought it was just because there's no other choice.
 

tippy2k2

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Was hoping one day they'll stop being evil part of the promise? I thought it was just because there's no other choice.
I mean, I'd like to think Democratic voters would like the Democrats to stop being so shit but maybe they like having the Democrats toss them a few crumbs and that's all they want.

 
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Thaluikhain

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I mean, I'd like to think Democratic voters would like the Democrats to stop being so shit but maybe they like having the Democrats toss them a few crumbs and that's all they want.

Well, not a US citizen, but I support the Dems against the alternative because better things aren't going to eventuate, at least not at the moment.
 

Agema

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As opposed to right now where...Israel is free to mass ethnically cleanse the Palestinians from swathes of their current territories...
Israel has, historically, been slowed or constrained by international (specifically US) opinion and pressure. This means that - theoretically - there is something to salvage for a viable Palestinian state in the future. Eventually, a point will come where there is nothing worth salvaging: a handful of crammed, urban open-air prisons, and where a Palestinian's only realistic hope of a better future is emigration. Support for Israel is draining away, and if the dial finally shifts against it in the USA, that's when Israel might finally be forced to back down and the Palestinians get a state. But only if there's anything left to save.

I cannot be sure that Trump will let Israel rampage over the Occupied Territories. Maybe he'll kerb-stomp Netanyahu in petty revenge for his perceived betrayal in accepting Biden's 2020 win. Maybe he'll arbitrarily try to force a peace on Israel just to go down in history as the man who resolved it to feed his ego. However, given his previous administration's policies (moving the embassy to Jerusalem, attempting to persuade or induce Arab nations to normalise relations with Israel, general Islamophobia, thoughts on "shithole nations", etc.) and evident Republican enthusiasm for Israel, I think the chances are he's very bad news for the Palestinians.

The status quo is shit for the Palestinians. The Democrats are part of that, and no-one has to forgive or like them for it. But there's a very good chance that in terms of the US election the alternative to the Democrats is much, much worse, and brings the Palestinians faster to final and irrevocable loss. The good news being, as you say, at least that's going to be different.
 
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tippy2k2

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Israel has, historically, been slowed or constrained by international (specifically US) opinion and pressure. This means that - theoretically - there is something to salvage for a viable Palestinian state in the future. Eventually, a point will come where there is nothing worth salvaging: a handful of crammed, urban open-air prisons, and where a Palestinian's only realistic hope of a better future is emigration. Support for Israel is draining away, and if the dial finally shifts against it in the USA, that's when Israel might finally be forced to back down and the Palestinians get a state. But only if there's anything left to save.

I cannot be sure that Trump will let Israel rampage over the Occupied Territories. Maybe he'll kerb-stomp Netanyahu in petty revenge for his perceived betrayal in accepting Biden's 2020 win. Maybe he'll arbitrarily try to force a peace on Israel just to go down in history as the man who resolved it to feed his ego. However, given his previous administration's policies (moving the embassy to Jerusalem, attempting to persuade or induce Arab nations to normalise relations with Israel, general Islamophobia, thoughts on "shithole nations", etc.) and evident Republican enthusiasm for Israel, I think the chances are he's very bad news for the Palestinians.

The status quo is shit for the Palestinians. The Democrats are part of that, and no-one has to forgive or like them for it. But there's a very good chance that in terms of the US election the alternative to the Democrats is much, much worse, and brings the Palestinians faster to final and irrevocable loss. The good news being, as you say, at least that's going to be different.
The Democrats "We're the lesser of two Evils" argument didn't work on me in previous years, what in the hell makes you think that stupid-ass argument is going to sway me at all now that the "lesser evil" is that the Democrats will only allow a bit of genocide, as a lil treat to Israel as opposed to the Republicans who might let them...also do genocide?
 
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Agema

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The Democrats "We're the lesser of Evils" shit in previous years, what in the hell makes you think that stupid-ass argument is going to sway me at all now that the "lesser evil" is that the Democrats will only allow a bit of genocide, as a lil treat to Israel as opposed to the Republicans who might let them...also do genocide?
I don't think it will sway you at all, and I don't really care how you vote.

I'm saying that if the greater evil wins because people found the lesser evil frustrating and boycotted it, they need to take their fair share of responsibility for the greater evil.
 
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crimson5pheonix

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The Democrats "We're the lesser of two Evils" argument didn't work on me in previous years, what in the hell makes you think that stupid-ass argument is going to sway me at all now that the "lesser evil" is that the Democrats will only allow a bit of genocide, as a lil treat to Israel as opposed to the Republicans who might let them...also do genocide?
Let's also not forget that Israel used American bombs to bomb 7 Americans over 3 different strikes and this was not a good enough reason to examine support for Israel.
 
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tippy2k2

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I don't think it will sway you at all, and I don't really care how you vote.

I'm saying that if the greater evil wins because people found the lesser evil frustrating and boycotted it, they need to take their fair share of responsibility for the greater evil.
The Democrats need to convince me and people like me that it's worth voting for them by doing stuff I want them to do and not doing stuff I don't want them to do.

If they don't, that's on them. Anyone trying to make voters feel bad that The Republicans won because The Democrats are shit can fuck right off with that attitude. The Lesser Evil is still evil. If they want me to vote for them, they need to stop being evil.
 
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Eacaraxe

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Porn isn't going to "pass" the Miller test.
Porn doesn't just pass the Miller test (and consistently has since the test's inception), porn is Constitutionally-protected free speech thanks to Miller v. California and the Miller test specifically. The case was literally about porn, the whole porn, and nothing but the porn.

There's being wrong about something, there's your usual level of ambient wrong-ness, there's you being wrong about a specific topic...and then there's this.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Porn doesn't just pass the Miller test (and consistently has since the test's inception), porn is Constitutionally-protected free speech thanks to Miller v. California and the Miller test specifically. The case was literally about porn, the whole porn, and nothing but the porn.

There's being wrong about something, there's your usual level of ambient wrong-ness, there's you being wrong about a specific topic...and then there's this.
That's basically what I was saying... I'm not the one concerned porn is gonna get banned here.
 

gorfias

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Trump is among the few president who never had the support of the American population. Never did he poll above 50%, nor was he ever elected by the American public instead of the college. So the people would not suggest otherwise.

Its also not really a rebuke. Churchill for example was not awarded with a second term despite leading Britain through the war. Good governments have lost elections before.


Okay. Doesn't change the fact that its the other party trying to dismantle democracy, and already tried doing just that through a coup a few years back.
Cuz complaining about a plainly stolen election is undoing democracy? I don't think so. But going into the future, I do hope we focus on the future rather than the past. I hear the left/main stream media is today claiming Kamala was never a "border czar". Do you agree?
 

Silvanus

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Cuz complaining about a plainly stolen election is undoing democracy? I don't think so.
Absolute horseshit. They couldn't provide substantial evidence for a single damn thing. They whined to high heavens because they lost, made a series of spurious claims they didn't have a shred of evidence for, and then literally argued to get entire states' worth of voters disenfranchised. The Republicans are, without a shadow of a doubt, grotesque hypocrites if they moan about undermining democracy here.
 

Hades

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Cuz complaining about a plainly stolen election is undoing democracy?
If Trump used violence, deceit and abuse of power to crown himself as an illegitimate president despite losing the election then this would indeed be undoing democracy. Not helping your argument that the only ''proof'' the election was stolen was that....Trump really wanted it to have been stolen.
 

Thaluikhain

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If Trump used violence, deceit and abuse of power to crown himself as an illegitimate president despite losing the election then this would indeed be undoing democracy. Not helping your argument that the only ''proof'' the election was stolen was that....Trump really wanted it to have been stolen.
Not so, lots of other Republican voters really wanted it to be stolen as well. Not to mention every other election they've lost, but this time some of them were more than just talk.