Funny events in anti-woke world

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 28, 2017
11,278
5,701
118
You keep saying "womanly shape" and I still don't know what you mean.

Here's the model render from Shadow of the Tomb Raider:

View attachment 12054

Here's the upcoming Tomb Raider reboot

View attachment 12055

Bust size looks about the same, or bigger on the newer version. Hips are more prominent and waist is skinnier on the newer version.

Yet for some reason you think the first design is better because it's "more womanly" in some way.

And yes, I agree that the top design is better than the bottom design, but apparently not for the same reasons that you do.
These angles are actually really bad for showcasing these characters.

1729276712533.png

So you see the indent in her form here? the way she narrows below the ribs and widens at the hip? The silhouette of her bust is much more pronounced than the static render you showcase above as well.

1729276852970.png 1729276894260.png

It's not really fair to compare in-game render to concept drawing but since we don't have real renders of the new character we'll have to use it. Notice the roundness of Lara's face on the left, versus the sharp angles on the right. Notice the round chin versus the square "pointed" chin.

In retrospect "Manliness" is not exactly the right word, but it's the easiest way to describe this hardness and removal of feminine identifiers that these artists are using.

1729277127968.png

Here is another example, though the netflix show is difficult because her character is so fucking inconsistent between shots. But again, square chin, hard angles in the jawline.

I guess hardness is another good word if you prefer over manliness. These ladies are becoming too hard and too amorphous between them and male characters that they've lost the identities of there gender. And i was asked about the inconsistency when I pointed out the male characters, and essentially I would have the same problem if they were suddenly designing male characters to be softer, rounder, more "girly" in much the same way I dislike the harder, manlier design of the ladies.

It serves as a very weird statement in that we've demonized female characters from being "girly", or "sexy", or putting them in situations in which they can ever be in danger of losing or need saving. Which means that stories in which the female is the lead and the hero has removed the stakes. Because the roles have not simply been reversed and it's the women saving the men, it's simply the removal of the role entirely.

I would love a game or a story in which a man becomes the "damsel in distress" and a woman becomes a hero in order to save her lover, husband, partner, whatever. But they don't ever tell these stories.

None of these harder character redesigns are ever going to reach iconic levels the way the original Lara has, because those iconic traits having been removed in favor of having nothing identifiable or special about the character at all.
 

Dirty Hipsters

This is how we praise the sun!
Legacy
Feb 7, 2011
8,647
3,206
118
Country
'Merica
Gender
3 children in a trench coat
View attachment 12057 View attachment 12058

It's not really fair to compare in-game render to concept drawing but since we don't have real renders of the new character we'll have to use it. Notice the roundness of Lara's face on the left, versus the sharp angles on the right. Notice the round chin versus the square "pointed" chin.

In retrospect "Manliness" is not exactly the right word, but it's the easiest way to describe this hardness and removal of feminine identifiers that these artists are using.

View attachment 12059

Here is another example, though the netflix show is difficult because her character is so fucking inconsistent between shots. But again, square chin, hard angles in the jawline.
Counterpoint:

1729278274376.png

Same character model from Shadow of the Tomb Raider. Change the camera positioning a little and the result is what you would characterize as "man jaw."

Different angles can emphasize different things.

I don't think new reboot Lara's chin is actually significantly bigger or more square than previous reboot Lara. I think the head tilt in combination with the lighting in the render they chose just emphasizes it more than they intended, and de-emphasizes the roundness of the cheekbones, resulting in a more angular look.

In this screenshot her chin is pretty square, you can practically draw a straight line across the bottom of it:

1729278961146.png
 

laggyteabag

Scrolling through forums, instead of playing games
Legacy
Oct 25, 2009
3,357
1,052
118
UK
Gender
He/Him
I would love a game or a story in which a man becomes the "damsel in distress" and a woman becomes a hero in order to save her lover, husband, partner, whatever. But they don't ever tell these stories.
You say that, and yet we both know that if a major property did this tomorrow, that side of social media wouldn't shut up about how woke it is for at least a decade.
 

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 28, 2017
11,278
5,701
118
You say that, and yet we both know that if a major property did this tomorrow, that side of social media wouldn't shut up about how woke it is for at least a decade.
Yeah but fuck those people. I don't like woke shit myself, but not everything with progressive tendancies is woke. They go completely overboard with it.
 

Dirty Hipsters

This is how we praise the sun!
Legacy
Feb 7, 2011
8,647
3,206
118
Country
'Merica
Gender
3 children in a trench coat
I would love a game or a story in which a man becomes the "damsel in distress" and a woman becomes a hero in order to save her lover, husband, partner, whatever. But they don't ever tell these stories.
I'm pretty sure this has happened multiple times in Tomb Raider and Uncharted.

I'm pretty sure Lara Croft has saved men in every game in the new trilogy. Chloe also saves Sam in Uncharted Lost Legacy, and I'm pretty sure Elena and Chloe save Nathan and Victor multiple times throughout the series.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
20,226
5,006
118
And believe me, I would be making these same arguments if they did this shit to male characters but unfortunately male heroes are always build like Ambercrombe and Fitch Models. Always jacked always, six-pack abs, sometimes lean like Cloud Strife, sometimes a walking tank like Kratos, but never not manly.
The heck are you talking about? Just as female characters have been toned down in ridiculous measurements so have the men. You look at Nathan Drake, Joel, Cole MacGrath, Jin Sakai, Alan Wake, they all just look like regular dudes. Kratos is a relic from a different time, hence why he stands out in the new GoW games for being the only super shredded person there. More realism means less perfectly shaped hard bodies.

Also, how are modern female characters in games not womanly? Maybe it's my keen eyes, but looking at characters like MJ in Spider-Man 2 or Aloy, and I can instantly spot their womanly attributes and signifiers. Even Abby at first glance I'm like 'yep, woman'. So how are these men more manly than the women are womanly?
 

thebobmaster

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 5, 2020
2,645
2,574
118
Country
United States
Not as her love interest though, which is a different thing. Saving general people isn't as impactful as saving your partner and that's what we never see.
Have you ever seen the movie Cutthroat Island? That's almost precisely the dynamic of the leads in that movie. Yes, I know it bombed for various reasons, only some of which were related to the actual quality of the movie, but it's still a fun watch.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
12,242
6,459
118
Country
United Kingdom
I'm saying that they are trying to erase the standard for women but not for men. And keep in mind having women of different body types is fine, but when you erase femintity from existing characters then it's a stupid "problem". The Unfortunate part in regards to the men is that for all the claims of toxic masculinity, and whatnot, why is it still acceptable for the men to remain hyper perfect men in terms of body, but not okay for that to be the case with the women?

The push to erase the notion of gender really seems to only ever apply to women, why is that? Why is it not happening to the male characters. I don't want it to happen to either, but why is it only happening to one sex? Nobody seems to be reimagining Nathan Drake as a gay femboy, why not? It seems perfectly okay to make Lara gay and masculine and couple erase her old identity under the guise of "realism". Where is my lean cross-fit dick sucking Nathan Drake then?
I mean, I'd be all in favour of more non-traditionally masculine male heroes. I want equal treatment, but seemingly in the opposite direction to you, because i like variety and dislike homogeneity. I'd absolutely hate the artistic landscape you seem to want. It also seems tremendously self-centred: you seemingly only envision there being space for what you (and others who share your specific interest) want, screw anyone who likes something else.

We both know the reason it's not happening for male heroes: a bunch of people would kick off. Lots of horny straight men like muscular women and like seeing lesbians, but would hate playing as a gay or feminine man because it doesn't appeal to their penises.

Anywho. I have absolutely zero idea why you think the presence of things outside of a single standard is attempting to "erase" the norm. It's like if everything is red & yellow, and I say I'd like to also have some blues and purples sometimes, someone responding that I'm somehow trying to remove the red and yellow. No, I... just have some other things I like as well, and would like some variety. Why must we only have what you want?
 

Dirty Hipsters

This is how we praise the sun!
Legacy
Feb 7, 2011
8,647
3,206
118
Country
'Merica
Gender
3 children in a trench coat
Not as her love interest though, which is a different thing. Saving general people isn't as impactful as saving your partner and that's what we never see.
"It doesn't matter unless they fuck later" is kind of a weird take but ok.
 

thebobmaster

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 5, 2020
2,645
2,574
118
Country
United States
I mean, I'd be all in favour of more non-traditionally masculine male heroes. I want equal treatment, but seemingly in the opposite direction to you, because i like variety and dislike homogeneity. I'd absolutely hate the artistic landscape you seem to want. It also seems tremendously self-centred: you seemingly only envision there being space for what you (and others who share your specific interest) want, screw anyone who likes something else.

We both know the reason it's not happening for male heroes: a bunch of people would kick off. Lots of horny straight men like muscular women and like seeing lesbians, but would hate playing as a gay or feminine man because it doesn't appeal to their penises.

Anywho. I have absolutely zero idea why you think the presence of things outside of a single standard is attempting to "erase" the norm. It's like if everything is red & yellow, and I say I'd like to also have some blues and purples sometimes, someone responding that I'm somehow trying to remove the red and yellow. No, I... just have some other things I like as well, and would like some variety. Why must we only have what you want?
It's the Reddit/Twitter argument problem. "I like pancakes." "What the FUCK do you have against waffles?!"
 
  • Like
Reactions: Silvanus

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 28, 2017
11,278
5,701
118
Why must we only have what you want?
Why do you assume it's only me? These pieces of media are FAILING financially. The girl-boss bullshit doesn't sell when it's overblown with over masculinization of the woman, and especially when it comes to the expense of the men or even general supporting cast around them.

If you like it...that's awesome. However myself, and people like me, don't and we are complaining about it because it's all we really can do. And it's funny because whenever people complained about tropes and all these things, we supported it. Sure let's make more representative media, that's cool. But that representation has come at the expense of what me and people like me also enjoyed.

So those of you who like this stuff, you are getting what you want. And my type of entertainment has been villianized and castrated, and then you get mad at me when I complain about it.

Why can we not have both? Why can't some media be this butch-girl bossing lesbian whatever the fuck, while other stuff maintains the sexy assassin badass terminator dudebro manly shit?

Why is what I like demonized, only for people to try and force me to like this other garbage?

It's not happening, and the forcefeeding isn't working which is why nobody is watching this shit, or buying Dustborn or Concord or whatever the fuck else.
 

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 28, 2017
11,278
5,701
118
"It doesn't matter unless they fuck later" is kind of a weird take but ok.
Well a man saving a random woman also doesn't fit the damsel trope. It's specifically the love interest in that trope. And it's a trope that never happens from a woman's perspective.

Hell I would even take a family member. Where is the female version of Taken? The closest thing I can think of is Peppermint, but she was taking revenge for murdered love one's not saving them.
 

thebobmaster

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 5, 2020
2,645
2,574
118
Country
United States
We aren't trying to force you to like it. You don't have to like it. If you don't, just...watch/play other stuff.
 

Dirty Hipsters

This is how we praise the sun!
Legacy
Feb 7, 2011
8,647
3,206
118
Country
'Merica
Gender
3 children in a trench coat
Well a man saving a random woman also doesn't fit the damsel trope. It's specifically the love interest in that trope. And it's a trope that never happens from a woman's perspective.
If you're talking tropes then yes, it never happens from a woman's perspective because a man can't be a damsel by the literal definition of the word. The strict definition of damsel is a young and unmarried woman. It also doesn't have to be a love interest, it's just someone that the hero is motivated to save.

Ashley in RE4 is a damsel in distress as Leon is tasked with saving her and that is what drives the plot forward. She isn't a love interest in the game though, that would be Ada.

So, given that we've established it doesn't have to be a love interest, would Ellie trying to save Joel's life during the winter sequence in Last of US count, or Lara Croft rescuing Jacob in Rise of the Tomb Raider?
 

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 28, 2017
11,278
5,701
118
She isn't a love interest in the game though
See does offer to fuck him at the end of the game though lol.

Eliie isn't really trying to save Joel in the winter part, she's trying to survive with him while he's down, but there really isn't a journey towards it as she's not pushing towards a goal or solution. Ultimately she just ends up needing to get saved again. Though the Last of Us fits not as a love interest but as a father/daughter dynamic, it's the video game version of Taken. And family would technically be a love interest because you love your family I hope.

Jacob for Lara, not really. Though I suppose it's an attempt at trying to subvert the trope but Jacob is pretty much obviously the bad guy from the first moment you see him. So I don't think it counts.

I am pretty sure, Horizon Zero Dawn did that. And Forbidden West again.
Aloy doesn't love anybody, she saves people as part of the greater good but she's never remotely interested in anyone. At least not until the DLC for FW in which she is gay by the way.

Which I'd argue making Aloy gay is really stupid. I was fine with her being a savior unable to connect with people on an individual basis, it really made her a bit more interesting because it made her motivations sort of self-serving. Her love interest was her own curiosity and through that she learns and uses what she learns to overcome people's difficulties. Ultimately making her gay just because defeats and destroys an interesting part about her imo.
 
Last edited:

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
20,226
5,006
118
Why do you assume it's only me? These pieces of media are FAILING financially. The girl-boss bullshit doesn't sell when it's overblown with over masculinization of the woman, and especially when it comes to the expense of the men or even general supporting cast around them.

If you like it...that's awesome. However myself, and people like me, don't and we are complaining about it because it's all we really can do. And it's funny because whenever people complained about tropes and all these things, we supported it. Sure let's make more representative media, that's cool. But that representation has come at the expense of what me and people like me also enjoyed.

So those of you who like this stuff, you are getting what you want. And my type of entertainment has been villianized and castrated, and then you get mad at me when I complain about it.

Why can we not have both? Why can't some media be this butch-girl bossing lesbian whatever the fuck, while other stuff maintains the sexy assassin badass terminator dudebro manly shit?

Why is what I like demonized, only for people to try and force me to like this other garbage?

It's not happening, and the forcefeeding isn't working which is why nobody is watching this shit, or buying Dustborn or Concord or whatever the fuck else.
Can I get examples of this overblown masculinization of women at the expense of the men? I'm a little fuzzy on what is and isn't considered this. Are MJ and Aloy masculinized? I guess Abby from TLoU2 is, but at the expense of which men? Saga shares the stage with Alan Wake in AW2, is her being there coming at his expense? Jessi Faden from Control? Do these characters come at the expense of the majority of still overly sexy female game characters we're still getting every year?
 

Dirty Hipsters

This is how we praise the sun!
Legacy
Feb 7, 2011
8,647
3,206
118
Country
'Merica
Gender
3 children in a trench coat
See does offer to fuck him at the end of the game though lol.
He's a love interest to her, not the other way around.

Jacob for Lara, not really. Though I suppose it's an attempt at trying to subvert the trope but Jacob is pretty much obviously the bad guy from the first moment you see him. So I don't think it counts.
I think you're confusing some characters here. Jacob isn't the villain of Rise of the Tomb Raider.
 

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 28, 2017
11,278
5,701
118
Can I get examples of this overblown masculinization of women at the expense of the men? I'm a little fuzzy on what is and isn't considered this. Are MJ and Aloy masculinized? I guess Abby from TLoU2 is, but at the expense of which men? Saga shares the stage with Alan Wake in AW2, is her being there coming at his expense? Jessi Faden from Control? Do these characters come at the expense of the majority of still overly sexy female game characters we're still getting every year?
Well Lara Croft is an example, in which she is the only person capable of accomplishing anything.

Though I will admit this is more a problem in movies and TV shows, than it is in gaming. Because gaming has the issue where things have to be given to the player to do, as it would feel dumb for the NPC's to be able to solve their own problems.

But Rings of Power, The Accolyte, Velma, Batgirl, She-Hulk, Terminator Dark Fate, Joker 2, are some examples.

I think you're confusing some characters here. Jacob isn't the villain of Rise of the Tomb Raider.
You are right....wait who was the final boss of that game then? What the fuck am I thinking of?