Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

[Gordon_4]

There is something incredibly wretched about people who oppose the maltreatment of Palestinians keeping themselves warm at night by raging at other people who oppose the maltreatment of Palestinians.

No wonder the Zionists win, if that's their opposition.

The People's Front of Judea - so to speak - strikes again.

 

[XsjadoBlaydette]

Being Pro-Israel 'Rehabilitates the Far Right,' Says Jewish Writer Rachel Shabi

Mehdi interviews the journalist and author of the insightful new book, 'Off-White: The Truth About Antisemitism.'

zeteo.com

“The left has ceded the space on antisemitism…and the right has smartly and strategically filled that void.”

That’s one of the big takeaways from award-winning British journalist and broadcaster Rachel Shabi’s new book, Off-White: The Truth About Antisemitism.

Shabi recently sat down with Mehdi for a wide-ranging interview about her book, the conditionality of whiteness for Jewish people, and why progressives need to establish their own trustworthiness when speaking out against antisemitism. “We’re going to have to do this work despite the bad-faith actors,” Shabi said.

“We need to be building our own credibility as people who care about and fight against antisemitism when we see it, including from the right, which is getting worse,” Shabi added.

Shabi’s book also explores the “new” antisemitism, which is pushed by supporters of Israel to demonize pro-Palestinian voices.

“The effect has been not only to silence and chill speech on Palestine at this urgent moment, which is bad enough, but it’s also completely degraded the tone,” Shabi said about false claims of antisemitism.

All the media acting surprised at trumps speech really are taking the fucking the piss, he talked about it before the election and Jared Kushner even months before that talked of it at harvard! Just psychos, fucking hollow power-drunk psychos everywhere as we sleep walk into our 6th extinction fuck off all you kunts

 

[crimson5pheonix]

OK, well that's speculation. There was no statement or rhetoric that matched this until now. Biden-- even during his wretched, indefensible provision of these bombs-- said Palestinians must be allowed to live in and rule Gaza. The rhetoric has shifted.

And yet Biden was trying to expel the Palestinians from their land. Rhetoric is pointless, actions are. Kamala vowed to continue Biden's actions. It's no more speculation than the speculation that Trump was talking out his ass when he said he was going to be the peace president on the campaign trail.

I can't help but notice the posts have shifted, too. Before these statements it was, "things cannot possibly escalate further, so there's no difference". Now it's "things are escalating, but they'd have escalated anyway, so there's no difference". The framing just adapts to maintain this equivalence, even as the earlier claim that nothing could escalate further has fallen apart.

I know, you have an issue reading. It's been a theme with you.

To be clear, that crowing is really misguided. It feels like co-opting or using their suffering as petty ammunition. I don't like it-- and I feel exactly the same way about the crowing from Tippy, and the insistence on blaming Democrat voters for what the Republicans are doing.

Like this right here.

There is something incredibly wretched about people who oppose the maltreatment of Palestinians keeping themselves warm at night by raging at other people who oppose the maltreatment of Palestinians.

No wonder the Zionists win, if that's their opposition.

It must suck looking in a mirror.

 

[Silvanus]

And yet Biden was trying to expel the Palestinians from their land. Rhetoric is pointless, actions are. Kamala vowed to continue Biden's actions. It's no more speculation than the speculation that Trump was talking out his ass when he said he was going to be the peace president on the campaign trail.

Rhetoric gives us a strong indicator for where actions will lead. With Biden, his actions fit the mold of US Presidents for decades: mostly heaps of arms sales, to appease Israel's government (and lobbyists), and to make money. There's no real indication that would lead to US takeover of the land and full expulsion. It didn't for the last 80 years.

I know, you have an issue reading. It's been a theme with you.

Nope, no rewriting the record. We were distinctly told that things cannot get worse, cannot escalate further, as a reason not to warn against Trump. The framing has shifted to accommodate what is patent escalation under the new President.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Rhetoric gives us a strong indicator for where actions will lead. With Biden, his actions fit the mold of US Presidents for decades: mostly heaps of arms sales, to appease Israel's government (and lobbyists), and to make money. There's no real indication that would lead to US takeover of the land and full expulsion. It didn't for the last 80 years.

The literal map of Israel today tells you that you're wrong. I don't know what false reality you live in.

Pray tell how "things cannot escalate further" is consistent with "things are escalating further".

I dunno, that's a concoction of your mind. The discussion was always the comparison between Trump and Biden/Harris. So far, nothing of note has changed between the two.

 

[Silvanus]

The literal map of Israel today tells you that you're wrong. I don't know what false reality you live in.

I live in the reality in which about 2 million Palestinians live in Gaza and it is governed by a Palestinian group. You can claim to see no difference in Trump's vision for the region if you want. But both Hamas and Israel themselves clearly do, and made no bones about it.

I dunno, that's a concoction of your mind.

Alright, into the memory hole it goes.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Alright, into the memory hole it goes.

Along with Palestine. I know, you don't care. You live in a world where it has always been Israel and they've never annexed land and threw out Palestinians before ever. This is aaaallllll new, because it's Trump.

I'm just going to remind you every time you speak on this topic the incredibly stupid statement you just made to imply the Palestinians have not been expelled from their land in the past 80 years. Complete rewrite of history. You're an incredibly unserious person.

 

[Ezekiel]

The international community is so useless. I know United States will never correct their evil, but I'm more disappointed by the rest of the world (barring a few supporters like United Kingdom and Germany) for not being more forceful. On top of more sanctions and travel bans, could easily take care of it by combining a number of their armies and marching into Israel. United States can't fight the whole world, doesn't want to lose those trading partners. Look at Netanyahu's wide smile as Trumped talked about removing the people of Gaza.

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

Surprised it’s taken this long. It was inevitably going to be a land grab.

Israel's Occupation: 50 Years of Dispossession

Mass human rights violations during the 50-year occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip have devastated the lives of millions of Palestinians.

www.amnesty.org

Israel had security lapses and knew about plans for the October 7th attack nearly a year in advance. Given what’s transpired it doesn’t seem erroneous to suggest it sacrificed its own people to use the event as justification for a retaliation that still hasn’t ended.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Along with Palestine. I know, you don't care. You live in a world where it has always been Israel and they've never annexed land and threw out Palestinians before ever. This is aaaallllll new, because it's Trump.

I'm just going to remind you every time you speak on this topic the incredibly stupid statement you just made to imply the Palestinians have not been expelled from their land in the past 80 years. Complete rewrite of history. You're an incredibly unserious person.

That is clearly not what Silvanus is arguing, and it doesn't do your credibility any good to claim it is.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

That is clearly not what Silvanus is arguing, and it doesn't do your credibility any good to claim it is.

It's not clear to me.

There's no real indication that would lead to US takeover of the land and full expulsion. It didn't for the last 80 years.

The last 80 years has been the takeover of land and expulsion of Palestinians.

 

[Thaluikhain]

There's no real indication that would lead to US takeover of the land and full expulsion. It didn't for the last 80 years.

The last 80 years has been the takeover of land and expulsion of Palestinians.

Emphasis mine. Previous US policy (with the tacit support of most of the world) has been piecemeal takeover of land by Israel and expulsion/murder of Palestinians. Trump is talking about the entirety. As abhorrent as the US has been on the issue, that's a significant step further.

(You could argue that the difference between Israeli takeover and US takeover is negligible)

OTOH, yeah, that's arguing which genocide is worse. While that is something that can be quantified, christ.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Emphasis mine. Previous US policy (with the tacit support of most of the world) has been piecemeal takeover of land by Israel and expulsion/murder of Palestinians. Trump is talking about the entirety. As abhorrent as the US has been on the issue, that's a significant step further.

(You could argue that the difference between Israeli takeover and US takeover is negligible)

OTOH, yeah, that's arguing which genocide is worse. While that is something that can be quantified, christ.

I'm not going to buy that hinge. The full expulsion has clearly been the goal the whole time, and strictly speaking Trump is only talking about Gaza and Gaza isn't the whole of Palestine. So if we're going to zero in on words, he's wrong there too. But really, the full expulsion has been the plan for 80 years, the escalation here was demolishing Gaza city all in one go, which Trump didn't do. Going to expel the Palestinians was also something Biden tried to do. The "escalation", such as it is, is in Trump saying it out loud. And I suppose in US planting the flag on the remains, but yes, that distinction has little meaning.

 

[Seanchaidh]

OK, well that's speculation. There was no statement or rhetoric that matched this until now. Biden-- even during his wretched, indefensible provision of these bombs-- said Palestinians must be allowed to live in and rule Gaza. The rhetoric has shifted.

The rhetoric has shifted. The trajectory has not. Biden never did anything to enforce the idea that Palestinians must be allowed to live in and control Gaza, and did everything to move in the other direction. He took every opportunity to blame Hamas for what was the fault of the Zionist regime, declared 'red lines' that were blatantly violated by the Zionists and promptly disregarded, and the vaunted aid pier was used for a military operation against the Palestinians and then abandoned.

I can't help but notice the posts have shifted, too. Before these statements it was, "things cannot possibly escalate further, so there's no difference". Now it's "things are escalating, but they'd have escalated anyway, so there's no difference". The framing just adapts to maintain this equivalence, even as the earlier claim that nothing could escalate further has fallen apart.

They were doing ethnic cleansing and mass murder before. They are doing ethnic cleansing and mass murder now. The main thing that has 'changed' is that time has passed. The situation has developed in apparent consistence with both Trump and Biden policy: support 'israel' doing whatever it wants (loudly) vs. support 'israel' doing whatever it wants (but complain about it occasionally). This is a pattern that you'll see Republicans and Democrats doing on other issues too: do something bad loudly vs. do something bad quietly; for example, Biden immigration policy was contemptible trash, but the narrative is that it was open borders; now we see at least one Senate Democrat bragging that for all the publicity of the ICE raids since Trump assumed office, Biden deported more people (and a higher share of criminals, he also said that); why wasn't that high rate of deportation news at the time? It didn't suit the narratives used to divide and rule. False conflict between elements of the ruling class; your three cent titanium tax goes too far vs. your three cent titanium tax doesn't go too far enough.

No wonder the Zionists win, if that's their opposition.

I think that people who oppose Zionism should actually oppose it.

I don't believe that "don't you regret not voting for the other Zionist now that this Zionist is also doing Zionist things" constitutes opposing Zionism. Does Hades oppose Zionism? Seems more like Hades just wants a cudgel against people who Hades thinks are responsible for 'electing Trump' by not voting for Harris. It's 2016 brainrot a full eight and a bit years later, now aimed at people who voted for no genocide instead of blue genocide or red genocide (or, indeed, those who voted for an at the time theoretical red genocide so as not to vote to reelect the actual blue genocide which I don't think describes anyone who has posted on this forum but does have a logic to it).

I don't think Hades has come to this organically; Democratic Party mouthpieces have been pushing that line, so Hades probably adopted it from them. If not directly, Hades adopted the mindset that leads to such thinking from them. The counterintuitive 'you must vote for this genocide to avoid basically the same genocide' is way more popular than the quality of the idea itself suggests it should be: it is reasoning backwards from the 'you should have voted Harris' conclusion.

It is little wonder that Zionists win when a significant portion of their 'opposition' is captured by political parties that support Zionism, especially when those who 'oppose Zionism' prioritize the party over their opposition to Zionism.

 

[Seanchaidh]

 

[Seanchaidh]

edit: show more says

For all the "I told you so" people regarding Trump on Palestine, you still don't get it. This was the plan all along. Any other administration would just be packaging it differently. If you don't want to look into the historical evidence supporting this, fine. But you never cared about Gaza, because if you did, you wouldn't be saying this, or belittling the people who actually do. So I'm choosing to tune you out, just like you did the genocide.

 

[Thaluikhain]

The rhetoric has shifted. The trajectory has not. Biden never did anything to enforce the idea that Palestinians must be allowed to live in and control Gaza, and did everything to move in the other direction. He took every opportunity to blame Hamas for what was the fault of the Zionist regime, declared 'red lines' that were blatantly violated by the Zionists and promptly disregarded, and the vaunted aid pier was used for a military operation against the Palestinians and then abandoned.



They were doing ethnic cleansing and mass murder before. They are doing ethnic cleansing and mass murder now. The main thing that has 'changed' is that time has passed. The situation has developed in apparent consistence with both Trump and Biden policy: support 'israel' doing whatever it wants (loudly) vs. support 'israel' doing whatever it wants (but complain about it occasionally). This is a pattern that you'll see Republicans and Democrats doing on other issues too: do something bad loudly vs. do something bad quietly; for example, Biden immigration policy was contemptible trash, but the narrative is that it was open borders; now we see at least one Senate Democrat bragging that for all the publicity of the ICE raids since Trump assumed office, Biden deported more people (and a higher share of criminals, he also said that); why wasn't that high rate of deportation news at the time? It didn't suit the narratives used to divide and rule. False conflict between elements of the ruling class; your three cent titanium tax goes too far vs. your three cent titanium tax doesn't go too far enough.



I think that people who oppose Zionism should actually oppose it.

I don't believe that "don't you regret not voting for the other Zionist now that this Zionist is also doing Zionist things" constitutes opposing Zionism. Does Hades oppose Zionism? Seems more like Hades just wants a cudgel against people who Hades thinks are responsible for 'electing Trump' by not voting for Harris. It's 2016 brainrot a full eight and a bit years later, now aimed at people who voted for no genocide instead of blue genocide or red genocide (or, indeed, those who voted for an at the time theoretical red genocide so as not to vote to reelect the actual blue genocide which I don't think describes anyone who has posted on this forum but does have a logic to it).

I don't think Hades has come to this organically; Democratic Party mouthpieces have been pushing that line, so Hades probably adopted it from them. If not directly, Hades adopted the mindset that leads to such thinking from them. The counterintuitive 'you must vote for this genocide to avoid basically the same genocide' is way more popular than the quality of the idea itself suggests it should be: it is reasoning backwards from the 'you should have voted Harris' conclusion.

It is little wonder that Zionists win when a significant portion of their 'opposition' is captured by political parties that support Zionism, especially when those who 'oppose Zionism' prioritize the party over their opposition to Zionism.

Ok, even if you don't believe there's be (somewhat) less genocide under Harris, surely you can accept that others genuinely believe that, and given that premise, see her as PotUS as being desirable over Trump?

Having said that, if she won, if 4 years time there'd be another election and nothing would have significantly improved in the meanwhile.