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Phoenixmgs

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I got almost $1,000 sitting in my rewards on my credit card and I'll get a free $750 from Chase for opening a checking account (which I'll just close shortly after) when I meet in a month when my CD matures. You all act like saving money is so difficult.

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Trunkage

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That's literally the opposite of what I said in multiple ways. I said that not everyone who isn't saving is poor. I said that people who are poor are likely there for more reasons than just capitalism being rigged against them. I said many things opposite to this summary.
I want to be clear. There are people like you claim. They are just an incredibly small portion of the people that are being punished by these policies. Because the policies are not targeting those people you are worried about.

It's like when Trump pushed to get rid of DEI. Most of the people who got hurt were vets because Trump lied to you about what DEI meant
It's like how Trump is trying to get rid of SNAP to target welfare queens. That's a lie. It's targeting mainly children and retirees
It's like how all this nonsense ICE is doing is meant to target illegal immigrants when most of the actual targets are here legally

There are a few people who act like you claim and you use this as a justification to hurt millions of people that definitely are not doing what you claim. Either you're stupid or lying. Dealers choice
 
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Trunkage

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I got almost $1,000 sitting in my rewards on my credit card and I'll get a free $750 from Chase for opening a checking account (which I'll just close shortly after) when I meet in a month when my CD matures. You all act like saving money is so difficult.

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Are you a minimum wage earner?

Edit: Just to be clear, the type of money you are talking about is a whole months pay, before tax
 

Phoenixmgs

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Are you a minimum wage earner?

Edit: Just to be clear, the type of money you are talking about is a whole months pay, before tax
I was never talking about minimum wage earners (there's very few of them anyways). I don't think there's literally a place (even McDonalds) in my area that pays people minimum wage. I was talking about if you make just $40K and don't have a housing payment (say live with your parents), how can't you easily save $1K/month?
 

Silvanus

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I was never talking about minimum wage earners (there's very few of them anyways). I don't think there's literally a place (even McDonalds) in my area that pays people minimum wage. I was talking about if you make just $40K and don't have a housing payment (say live with your parents), how can't you easily save $1K/month?
Why are you talking only about those without a housing payment?

About a third of lived-in properties are rented in the US, with the average rent being well over 1k per month. And among those who don't rent, ~60% have mortgage repayments. Those who have no housing payments to make constitute a relatively small, generally affluent group. Of course they'll generally be able to save more easily.
 

tstorm823

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But what is education, if not empowerment? What is healthcare, if not empowerment (because people are no longer too sick to do stuff)? Disability support should empower disabled people to do more, and childcare empower parents to do more. You can view unemployment benefit as empowerment - you don't have to be shackled to that dead-end job that exhausts you else you'll run out of food and home, you can quit and plan something better. What are food stamps if not empowerment, because you surely have no freedom when you've starved to death.

In many cases, arguably the distinction for some is not essential to the welfare, it's a practical aspect of how people use them. Some people will be happy to live off welfare rather than work, in which case welfare could be viewed as parasitic. For other people the same welfare is a vital safety net that gives them an ability to thrive.
I agree on all points here.
When socialists said "from each according to his ability", the idea was that people actually work. Preferable in a job they are good at and enjoy, and get respected for. The idea has never been that everyone just gets given stuff, at least not until some futuristic superabundance.
I would argue that the systems that have formed in the capitalist west do a better job reaching that ideal than planned economies do, with the single caveat that some people get much more than they need on top.
Should we be surprised that a right winger would think privatised welfare better than socialised welfare?
I wouldn't say private vs public was the big distinction I was going for there, rather just the old "beggars can't be choosers". Whoever is doing the supporting in whatever capacity aside, I think there is dignity in accepting whatever is being given with gratitude, at least as much if not more than the perceived dignity of being in charge of what you get.
 

Agema

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I wouldn't say private vs public was the big distinction I was going for there, rather just the old "beggars can't be choosers". Whoever is doing the supporting in whatever capacity aside, I think there is dignity in accepting whatever is being given with gratitude, at least as much if not more than the perceived dignity of being in charge of what you get.
The state is at least largely faceless. There can be a sense of resentment going to other people and begging them for support, because it forces the recipient to accept their inferiority. As you say, beggars can't be choosers - but no-one likes being a beggar.

Charity is also potentially a form of power. Through ability to pick and choose, a donor potentially has the right to demand loyalty, or obligations of the recipient. Similarly, this also tends to cause imbalances in distribution of support. Children's hospitals and cancer research tend to have plenty to spare. Men's mental health charities or support for rehabilitating ex-convicts are generally desperate for any pennies they can get.

I would argue that the systems that have formed in the capitalist west do a better job reaching that ideal than planned economies do, with the single caveat that some people get much more than they need on top.
Debating planned economies is a straw man: virtually no-one wants a planned economy.

The vast majority of leftists are democratic socialists, which would retain a strong element of free market. Mostly, what people want is a more equitable distribution of wealth and resources. Marx was absolutely right when he said that capitalism is based on exploitation of the workers, and a lot of people want a society where the fundamental rule of economic organisation is not exploitation of the workers and more and more of the national pie dropping into the pockets of fewer and fewer people. Everytime you see some businessman or policy wonk say "deregulation", what this actually means is a right for companies to exploit others: workers, customers, business partners, the state, the environment. And companies have done nothing if not prove they will relish that exploitation. No wonder everyone hates them, and "the elites" who run them.
 

tstorm823

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"how many children are homeless in the USA -ai"

Why is it the first Google result? In a new private window, no less?

Anyway, here's a more recent and higher number: https://www.ncsl.org/human-services/youth-homelessness-overview
It's just too easy to disassemble these. If you follow the chain of information, that stat comes from this:

Once again, a highly broad definition of homelessness, to explicitly call out couch surfing on many occasions. Additionally, their age range goes to 25, of that 4.2 million estimated homeless people, 3.5 million of them are adults. The youth portion is 700,000. So again, even going with very broad definitions of homelessness, things that include fully sheltered people just without a fixed residence at the time, your first number was at least double reality.

Why is it the first result? Cause lies get more clicks, duh.
As you say, beggars can't be choosers - but no-one likes being a beggar.
That's a cultural failing. We've treated pride as a virtue rather than a vice for too long.
 

Seanchaidh

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It's just too easy to disassemble these. If you follow the chain of information, that stat comes from this:

Once again, a highly broad definition of homelessness, to explicitly call out couch surfing on many occasions. Additionally, their age range goes to 25, of that 4.2 million estimated homeless people, 3.5 million of them are adults. The youth portion is 700,000. So again, even going with very broad definitions of homelessness, things that include fully sheltered people just without a fixed residence at the time, your first number was at least double reality.
So you acknowledge that "reality" is that youth homelessness is seventy times more than your number.
 

Agema

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That's a cultural failing. We've treated pride as a virtue rather than a vice for too long.
Pride is a virtue - at least in moderation.

You want agency, and you want empowerment, well then pride is part of what gives people get up and go to perform. You talked about dignity in work, and pride relates to that dignity: that people should be secure in their worth and identity. That's why the LGBTQ+ movement are called "Pride", because they deserve to feel security and worthy in their own identity. They spent centuries being shamed, belittled and ostracised (if not imprisoned and killed), having to hide or deny who they were and how they felt. They shouldn't have to feel that way, and that is having pride in themselves.

The people who will always have pride are the powerful, and well they might demean the poor having pride, all the better for ensuring that the peasantry keep up their fawning, forelock-tugging servility and know their place at the boosts of their betters.

After all, pride as sin in much of history is about people not knowing their place, whether before god (think 'hubris') or their social superiors. Although of course in many cases that was much the same thing: many ancient autocrats deified themselves and their families, and "divine right of kings" ran in the Christian world to a few centuries ago. Islam means "submission" (before Allah). Humility is an important attitude to be instilled in people who are intended to obey.
 
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tstorm823

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So you acknowledge that "reality" is that youth homelessness is seventy times more than your number.
In a number that includes people with adequate access to shelter. Their definition of homeless includes being in shelters, being fostered temporarily, sleeping on a friends couch... The other source broke down sheltered vs unsheltered, that is the number that is 1/70 of what you said.
Pride is a virtue - at least in moderation.

You want agency, and you want empowerment, well then pride is part of what gives people get up and go to perform. You talked about dignity in work, and pride relates to that dignity: that people should be secure in their worth and identity. That's why the LGBTQ+ movement are called "Pride", because they deserve to feel security and worthy in their own identity.
All of this is wrong. Security in your worth should not be at all related to your identity. Your worth is intrinsic to your humanity, and nothing more specific than that, nothing you are or do, will ever make you worth more or less than anyone else. Things like the Pride movement tie people's self-worth to some aspect of themselves just as much as persecuting them for it does, it's all heinous.
 

Agema

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All of this is wrong. Security in your worth should not be at all related to your identity. Your worth is intrinsic to your humanity, and nothing more specific than that, nothing you are or do, will ever make you worth more or less than anyone else.
Yes, and unicorns and rainbows and cute, little puppies. It's more useful to consider how people actually are than some notional and impossible ideal.

Not least because any psychologist worth their salt could explain to you the risks of holding yourself to unrealistic standards and thus always falling short - because you might take that sense of lack of worth as part of your identity. (There are all sorts of jokes about Catholic guilt.)

You have an identity. I have an identity. We all have a internal sense of who we are. Do you feel American? Well then, that's part of your identity. So is your skin colour, your sexuality, your religion. There's societal inculcation involved (you would probably feel Canadian had you been raised in Canada), but irrespective of how anyone chooses to define you, you have your sense of self-identity.

Do you get annoyed when Europeans criticise America? That's almost certainly because you identify as American, and so it is annoying when people have a go at what you identify with. And maybe, even subconsciously such that you don't even quite realise, it feels like they are attacking *you*, because of your identity. That's why it hurts and you get angry. Oh you absolutely do feel this way on something, even if not on this specific example. We all do, it is how humans think. And so it is if we attack and erode people's sense of identity, it hurts. Think then of what it is like if your deeply held beliefs and needs are assaulted by society. For instance if much as any human you feel and want to express love, but society aggressively teaches you to believe that your love is evil, disgusting, forbidden. Imagine then the incredible dissonance and pain it can cause a person to have been indoctrinated into believing that such a deep and fundamental part of themselves is evil.

Telling gay people not to identify by their sexuality is piffle and nonsense. They are going to, to at least some extent. If you genuinely want to minimise this identity, then I suggest you need to completely normalise their sexuality. You might want, for instance, to not demand they are unsuitable to serve in the military, or adopt children. You might not want to paint them expressing their love as inherently sinful, consider their relationships to be second-class. Every time you point at them, pick them out and say they are different, you help make that identity.

And let's face it, all that identity your side of the fence is ascribing to them is negative. They are more sinful than straight people. They deserve less than straight people. They can't do things that straight people can. How on earth can you think that won't affect their sense of worth? You are belittling them.

Their answer is to have a celebratory day with parades to tell you back: yes, we are as worthy in ourselves as you. And good for them.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Why are you talking only about those without a housing payment?

About a third of lived-in properties are rented in the US, with the average rent being well over 1k per month. And among those who don't rent, ~60% have mortgage repayments. Those who have no housing payments to make constitute a relatively small, generally affluent group. Of course they'll generally be able to save more easily.
Because I gave an anecdote of 3 friends that don't have a housing payment (2 live at home still, 1 lives in his passed away parents' house that is paid off), and none of them ever have money. I asked how don't you have money in that situation? You should be able to save like $1k/month easily in that situation. The response from people here is "Yes yes, everyone else is just bad at life." There's tons of people that are just bad with money.
 

Silvanus

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Because I gave an anecdote of 3 friends that don't have a housing payment (2 live at home still, 1 lives in his passed away parents' house that is paid off), and none of them ever have money. I asked how don't you have money in that situation? You should be able to save like $1k/month easily in that situation. The response from people here is "Yes yes, everyone else is just bad at life." There's tons of people that are just bad with money.
Right, but this discussion isn't fundamentally about your three friends. Nobody here knows their individual circumstances except you. We're broadly discussing how easy/difficult it is to save in America.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Right, but this discussion isn't fundamentally about your three friends. Nobody here knows their individual circumstances except you. We're broadly discussing how easy/difficult it is to save in America.
I was responding to the following that isn't true at all. You don't have to be a straight or white or male or make 7 figures to have a pretty easy life in America, it's really not that hard.

"Yeah, America is great as long as you're a cis white guy making 7+ figures with no moral qualms about all the shit the people in charge of us are doing lol"
 

tstorm823

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Their answer is to have a celebratory day with parades to tell you back: yes, we are as worthy in ourselves as you. And good for them.
That's not the message though. Holding gay Mardi Gras in every major city is not "we are as worthy". It's the same as regular Mardi Gras, it's a self-aware celebration of pure indulgence. If you forget that, if you lose the self-awareness, you fall into the trap of thinking one groups worst impulses are the equivalent of the other's normalcy.

Gay people are not Pride all the time, and the few who act that way are exactly as terrible as the straight perverts and drunks who act like every day is Mardis Gras.
 

Agema

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That's not the message though. Holding gay Mardi Gras in every major city is not "we are as worthy". It's the same as regular Mardi Gras, it's a self-aware celebration of pure indulgence. If you forget that, if you lose the self-awareness, you fall into the trap of thinking one groups worst impulses are the equivalent of the other's normalcy.

Gay people are not Pride all the time, and the few who act that way are exactly as terrible as the straight perverts and drunks who act like every day is Mardis Gras.
Dude, it's a once-a-year festival. How do you think these things work?

You may as well be criticising Thanksgiving Day as indulgence because Americans are stuffing their faces with a massive meal, or Christmas as being unrepresentative of what Christians do for the other 364 days of the year, or St. Patrick's Day because Irishness is more than a kitsch parade of green, leprechauns and Guinness.
 
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