National Guard called into Minneapolis

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Dwarvenhobble

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I have a very specific question about this. For me, being asked to wait in the waiting bay is very normal. Like half my interaction. So... I don’t get the concern food. And I understand it’s mainly she’s stressed. But the whole interaction is a normal as McDonald’s gets..
A few points.

The officer said she'd come off shift and due to everything going on that was likely a close to 12 hour shift or longer.

She said she'd not eaten in a while so that likely will impact your mood too.

The concern is because yesterday there was a report of three police officers getting poisoned and ending up in hospital after getting milkshakes. It turned out not to have been deliberate and staff had merely failed to clear out all the cleaning fluid from the machine (and yes poisoned is the right word even if it wasn't deliberate).

The reaction to the above news before being revealed to have been an accident was from certain parts of the internet emphatic celebration and saying how "I wish more people would do that" and "The people who did this are heros"or "I'll have to try this if a cop comes in when I'm serving". Which yeh not very reassuring.

So you've got a Police woman whose come off a long shift, not eaten much during it, have likely had a stressful few weeks and went onto shift hearing that three police had been poisoned and to watch out plus likely a few weeks of people hating on her just for being a police officer and so it was all too much and she was scared the delay was them doing something to her food as apparently she's not used to their being a delay when she orders in advance through the phone app.

Just one thing. So, to pay more staff, the only way to accomplish this is to reduce the pay of minimum wage workers.

Sounds like wealth redistribution to me
It is pretty much just moving the same money round it's because CEOs want to maximise profit to please share holders and failure to please them could result in them trying to throw the CEO out of his position to replace them with some-one who will be more willing to generate profit first and foremost. Shareholders demand perpetual growth in profits to to manage that requires them to not actually help staff and keep staffing costs roughly the same if possible while getting more stuff sold thus less staff less hours and yet more work for all said remainning staff to do for the slightly better wage.
Welcome to why the system is broken.
 

Hawki

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If this movement were called "Police Reform Now" instead of "Black Lives Matter", we would probably have significantly fewer numbers of people thinking that this is about race, and instead, directing their energies on the "real enemy"

Am I alone in thinking that this will only lead to more racism?
So, when I talk about BLM here, I'm specifically talking about the US chapter when I say this, but...

Okay, here's the thing. BLM, I feel, potentially shot itself in the foot when it chose the name. Because on one hand, BLM has a point, that blacks in the US are disproportinately affected by the police. More likely to be shot, more likely to be arrested, more likely to receive harsher sentences for similar crimes. Here's the thing though. US police, even accounting for the US having a larger population, are far more likely to use force than other countries, period. Like, double digit times more likely compared to similar countries. But before I get to that, I'm going to share another statistic.

Inside the US, blacks commit more homicides with guns than whites, per capita. However, whites commit more mass shootings per capita, and it's mass shootings that get the media attention. For better or worse, it's mass shootings that have spurred every major movement for gun reform that I've seen. But when people marched in the streets, it wasn't a "Stop White Mass Shootings" movement (SWMS?), it was a broader movement to stop gun violence. It didn't work, granted, but it at least operated under the premise that gun violence is a universal problem.

Now, you may be saying at this point that BLM chose the name, because as I've already stated, blacks are disproportinately affected by police. Again, I agree. Question is, did the name choice help or hinder the cause? Because there's been a lot of time debating the idea of "All Lives Matter" and "Blue Lives Matter," and on the fringes, "White Lives Matter." One statistic that shocked me was that if the US released every POC from prison today, leaving only PWCs (apparently that's a term now) incarcerated, the country would still imprison more of its citizens per capita than any other country on Earth. From where I'm standing, everyone in the country has a vested interest in preventing over-incarceration and police violence, but BLM strikes me as both intersectional and anti-intersectional, with some of the former reaching.

BLM has highlighted a problem, correctly, but that problem is focused through a racial lens. BLM will boo a mayor for not defunding police, while also meeting with Nicholas Maduro, despite Venezuala's police violence being even worse than the US. BLM extends its mandate to black LGBT folks, but also have Palestinian flags at their rallies because that's somehow related, and gays are treated better in Israel than Palestine. BLM will recount the names of George Floyd and Trayvon Martin, and Tamir Rice, but not the names of Daniel Schafer, Andrew Thomas, or Dylan Noble. BLM, to shift to the UK a bit, will rightly point out that Black British are over-represented in arrests, while simultaniously yelling "hands up, don't shoot," despite the fact that UK police don't carry firearms, and deaths at the hands of police in the UK come to around three a year. BLM, in the US, will point out, correctly, that blacks are over-represented in police shootings/violence and whites are underrepresented, but much less is said on Amerindians (also over-represented) or Latinos and Asians (under-represented). It's why you'll get into a debate about whether the police are racially biased or blacks commit more crimes. Far less is the acknowledgement that both statements can be true.

A refrain I've heard is that if BLM's demands are met, then the reforms that follow through will benefit everyone. And to this, I agree. But that isn't the point here. The point I'm curious about, and maybe we won't know the answer for decades, when we look back at this in a similar manner to the Civil Rights movement, is whether the racial name and focus helped or hindered the cause. But on the question of the name, I can't help but wonder if the movement might have had more success if it made its focus on police brutality all-encompassing, because again, looking at the stats, over-incarceration and police brutality are universal problems, even if some groups suffer from it more than others.

I dunno, I guess how you feel about the movement's name and nature will depend as to whether you look up to Martin Luther King or Malcolm X more.
 
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Revnak

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What? Who? Nazis? Oh, sorry, I was just looking at the video.
I thought trying to dig into people's pasts in order to discredit them, like with George Floyd and his multiple stints in jail, was wrong?
Uh, the problem is the guy is a Nazi and isn’t even in America. There’s no source on that video. It could be months old dude.
Edit: Ok, so first thing I’ve found is this is at least two weeks old, based on a YouTube recording I’ve found. Still looking into it because most of what I’ve seen is RW contextless reposts from today.
Edit2: Finally found an older tweet, at least back on the 31st
Edit3: An actual news article. Doubt this guy is happy to be told he’s part of a race war, as he says the people fighting him were reacting the same way he was to the women he believed were attacking the cyclist.
Edit4: so yeah, he was not dragged out of his car by a mob, he got in a fight (possibly justified, I can’t tell) with some women, some men reacted by disarming him, at some point he lost his wallet, there was damage to his truck. This... this isn’t even as big a deal as one of the nightly protest crackdowns in Portland.
 
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Houseman

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Edit4: so yeah, he was not dragged out of his car by a mob, he got in a fight (possibly justified, I can’t tell) with some women, some men reacted by disarming him, at some point he lost his wallet, there was damage to his truck. This... this isn’t even as big a deal as one of the nightly protest crackdowns in Portland.
Yeah, you're right. Thanks for doing that detective work! I'll be better about fact-checking myself and not spreading misleading information in the future.
 
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Revnak

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Yeah, you're right. Thanks for doing that detective work! I'll be better about fact-checking myself and not spreading misleading information in the future.
It’s fine, we all mess up. It’s kinda why I try to stick to people who I feel can back things up or local journalists, but even then we can make mistakes.
Edit: like, I doubt you actually follow an Irish Nazi, so you probably just found it retweeted at random like anyone else. Shit happens.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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A new Zone is coming into existence

PKaz

A 6 block area around the home of the Mayor of Potland. They're saying they won't leave until their demands are met.


Also claims that they plan to lock down the area with a no-one allow into the Zone policy from 10PM until 6Am every night.
 

Silvanus

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and if they want their message out their and to change national policy the best move is to ignore them. They're no more likely to change national policy than bees, taps or toasters.
Ignoring problems has a terrible track record as an approach. And they've been successful in changing national policy in various developed western countries.

If you think "it could never happen here", you're not paying very close attention.

So why does it keep working then?
...it doesn't work. That's literally what I just described. I've seen it fail to work first-hand. It doesn't work.

But because they have a leadership structure you can't just claim any random person claiming to be one speaks for the organisation or can represent views within it
They don't have an overall leadership structure, as I've now pointed out three or four times to the point of tedium.

The reason any random person can't claim to speak for the organisation is because that's fucking nonsense. A random person couldn't legitimately speak for the organisation or represent views within it whether or not it had a leadership structure.

Wouldn't be hard to invite people and obscure the details a bit and rely on them not checking the details themselves.
How obvious do you think it would have been, after they'd turned up and seen the sea of swastika flags, KKK flags, confederate flags? Heard the anti-Semitic chants? It wasn't secret that it was a far-right rally. It was blindingly obvious.

I really do not understand the attempt to gloss over the nature of the event. Is this solely so you can portray Trump's "very fine people" comment in a better light?
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Ignoring problems has a terrible track record as an approach. And they've been successful in changing national policy in various developed western countries.

If you think "it could never happen here", you're not paying very close attention.
Thing is most influence wasn't done via marches etc.
They do those for attention and recruitment and giving them attention is helping their cause.
Blowing them up as some huge threat and not a bunch of sad pathetic individuals is giving them more credit and helping them.

The solution isn't yelling at them and trying to fight them.

Daryl Davis has done a hell of a lot to steer people away from such groups just by trying to understand them and show them there are other ways and they are misguided.


...it doesn't work. That's literally what I just described. I've seen it fail to work first-hand. It doesn't work.
yet it does work people retreated.


They don't have an overall leadership structure, as I've now pointed out three or four times to the point of tedium.
No but there are leaders of groups that can be pointed to

The reason any random person can't claim to speak for the organisation is because that's fucking nonsense. A random person couldn't legitimately speak for the organisation or represent views within it whether or not it had a leadership structure.
But when no-one is head to represent the organisation then anyone can be said to represent it's views unless the rest strongly reject said view.


How obvious do you think it would have been, after they'd turned up and seen the sea of swastika flags, KKK flags, confederate flags? Heard the anti-Semitic chants? It wasn't secret that it was a far-right rally. It was blindingly obvious.
Depends where they set up most likely.

I really do not understand the attempt to gloss over the nature of the event. Is this solely so you can portray Trump's "very fine people" comment in a better light?
Because the sum of a person may not be just certain highly problematic view they hold due to ignorance or being misguided and if that is how people view others then it says there is no chance for change. No option but war of some kind. Which when said individuals argue stuff like people wanting to wipe them out and you're saying there is no hope to change them and people are so against them then the only solution is to then make them believe they are right and you do want to wipe them out not just wipe out their misguided awful ideology of hate.
 

Revnak

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Amazing
Ok, I do want to say that based on the other identical ads with different pictures it is possible this was coincidental and made by an intern who just looked up clip art of street signs. The effect is the same (dudes definitely still know what this means) but it’s possibly just a horrifying gaffe.
 

CaitSeith

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Ok, I do want to say that based on the other identical ads with different pictures it is possible this was coincidental and made by an intern who just looked up clip art of street signs. The effect is the same (dudes definitely still know what this means) but it’s possibly just a horrifying gaffe.
The administration has thrown far too many "coincidental" far-right dogwhistles to give them the benefit of the doubt tbh.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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The administration has thrown far too many "coincidental" far-right dogwhistles to give them the benefit of the doubt tbh.
Or is it people more aware of them or looking for them because they already believe the administration to be racist?

I mean people know some of them like the Swastika but (and I'm checking the ADL database to tell you these ones because I only remember a few of them)

The Life (also Elhaz or Algis) rune
The othala rune
Red or White Laced Boots
The Bowlcut flag
The Celtic Cross
((( ))) aka the echo sign
Moon Man
the mathematical sign "≠"
100%
12
13
14
18
28
38
43
83
9%
ACAB

That's some of the more obscure ones.

I mean people were freaking out over the OK hand sign before but Obama and Hillary have both made the OK hand sign at various points.

Hell PETA claimed drinking milk and eating meat was a sign of being a white supremacist at one point.
 

Eacaraxe

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Wild ass world. Wonder at what point they’ll start using the stronger grenade launchers that cam embed tear gas in skulls.
Frankly I'm not convinced these barriers, checkpoints, staging areas, and materiel buildups we're only seeing now, are actually about this wave of protests which have subsided for the most part. Give it about a month or two before the second wave of 'rona hits, unemployment extensions and living expense moratoriums end, and the impending foreclosure crisis hits full swing with Congress having done nothing but extend its customary thoughts and prayers.
 

Sneed's SeednFeed

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Or is it people more aware of them or looking for them because they already believe the administration to be racist?

I mean people know some of them like the Swastika but (and I'm checking the ADL database to tell you these ones because I only remember a few of them)

The Life (also Elhaz or Algis) rune
The othala rune
Red or White Laced Boots
The Bowlcut flag
The Celtic Cross
((( ))) aka the echo sign
Moon Man
the mathematical sign "≠"
100%
12
13
14
18
28
38
43
83
9%
ACAB

That's some of the more obscure ones.

I mean people were freaking out over the OK hand sign before but Obama and Hillary have both made the OK hand sign at various points.

Hell PETA claimed drinking milk and eating meat was a sign of being a white supremacist at one point.

Yeah it's definitely people just looking for them, dogwhistling doesn't exist.

 

Buyetyen

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Okay, here's the thing. BLM, I feel, potentially shot itself in the foot when it chose the name. Because on one hand, BLM has a point, that blacks in the US are disproportinately affected by the police. More likely to be shot, more likely to be arrested, more likely to receive harsher sentences for similar crimes. Here's the thing though. US police, even accounting for the US having a larger population, are far more likely to use force than other countries, period. Like, double digit times more likely compared to similar countries. But before I get to that, I'm going to share another statistic.
If someone is going to decide they're pro-police brutality because their fee-fees hurt because black people didn't think of white people egos first, that person was already pro-police brutality.
 

Sneed's SeednFeed

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If someone is going to decide they're pro-police brutality because their fee-fees hurt because black people didn't think of white people egos first, that person was already pro-police brutality.
Somebody wrote a book about that sense of exasperation (well, multiple books on similar topics, but there's one that's part of a blogpost which I've linked here).

 
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Revnak

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If someone is going to decide they're pro-police brutality because their fee-fees hurt because black people didn't think of white people egos first, that person was already pro-police brutality.
I someone thinks “Black Lives Matter” is an intimidating slogan it’s possibly because they don’t care about black lives.
 
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Houseman

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If someone is going to decide they're pro-police brutality
That's the thing about polarizing, black-and-white, narratives. Disagreement is seen as opposition. You can't criticize groups like "black lives matter" and "antifa" without someone jumping to conclusions and saying "OH SO YOU DON'T THINK THAT BLACK LIVES MATTER? YOU LOOOVE POLICE BRUTALITY??!" "You'rE a NAZI!?" "RaCiSt!"

He didn't say anything about "pro police-brutality", yet you got there anyway. How did that happen?

And that's not a bug, it's a feature.
Seems like some people out there want to divide us, instead of uniting us.
 
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lil devils x

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Terminal Blue

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Hell PETA claimed drinking milk and eating meat was a sign of being a white supremacist at one point.
I mean, it's PETA.

However, milk was/is a white supremacist meme. Historically, Europeans consumed a lot of dairy and thus people of European ancestry are far less likely than other populations to be lactose intolerant. This resulted in a funny joke where white supremacists would make memes and posts about being "lactose tolerant". Plus, milk is white. Do you get it? It's white, like white people are white. Very funny. 10/10.

Generally, when people talk about Trump dog whistling to white supremacists, they don't mean these kind of overt memes or references. I mean, wake me up when Trump starts talking about giving protesters free helicopter rides, because that feels like any day now. What they mean is that Trump says things which racist people like, but which less racist people can still deny or pretend aren't about race. Things like the border wall can be framed as issues of national security or crime reduction, but ultimately the message which is received is that brown people are bad and we need to keep them out.

Generally, racists aren't going to come out and tell you what they believe. They won't say things like "white people are the superior race and we need to keep minorities down for the good of society', instead they say things which, if true, would lead to that conclusion. For example, posting a tweet claiming (falsely) that that 81% of white murder victims are killed by black people, with a picture of a scary looking black man with a gun. Donald Trump says these things, and that's why racists like him because whether he actually believes whites are the superior race or that black people are dangerous subhumans (and spoiler: he almost certainly does) he acts like it is true.
 
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