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Houseman

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Because it’s branded itself the official twitter account of CHOP/CHAZ, which, as I just said, probably doesn’t and won’t exist. I used that other argument because I doubted you or Dwarf would believe CHOP/CHAZ wouldn’t have an official twitter.
So it's not the official CHOP account because CHOP isn't organized enough to have an official account, so therefore, any accounts claiming to be the official account must be joke accounts? And then the other argument was thrown on as supporting evidence?

Okay.

The way I see it, there could be two different conclusions:

#1: CHOP isn't organized so whoever claims to be the official account is a joke account
#2: CHOP isn't organized so everyone who claims to speak for CHOP is equally valid

I find #2 more likely than #1. #1 kind of assumes maliciousness, when the reality could be that they're just as valid as anyone else claiming to speak for CHOP.

How do we determine what is CHOP fake news, and what isn't? Either it's all true or none of it is. We have no way of telling, do we? It's not like "reliable news outlets" are sending journalists in to sit in on council meetings.
 

Revnak

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So it's not the official CHOP account because CHOP isn't organized enough to have an official account, so therefore, any accounts claiming to be the official account must be joke accounts? And then the other argument was thrown on as supporting evidence?

Okay.

The way I see it, there could be two different conclusions:

#1: CHOP isn't organized so whoever claims to be the official account is a joke account
#2: CHOP isn't organized so everyone who claims to speak for CHOP is equally valid

I find #2 more likely than #1. #1 kind of assumes maliciousness, when the reality could be that they're just as valid as anyone else claiming to speak for CHOP.
Well, some people are malicious, and it’s reasonable to assume as much when they claim to speak for an entire body that is not organized to come to such a consensus. If anyone is just as valid than the hundreds of 4chan troll accounts claiming to speak for all of CHAZ ought to be taken at their word, meaning we should assume their aim is to kill every straight white male so we ought to get ready for the race war.
How do we determine what is CHOP fake news, and what isn't? Either it's all true or none of it is. We have no way of telling, do we? It's not like "reliable news outlets" are sending journalists in to sit in on council meetings.
Local Seattle reporters are going there all the time dude. If you don’t trust individuals who have far left leanings, you can still look up the local Seattle reporting. There’s a good deal of it.
Edit: Oh, you’re thinking there’s private council meetings or something. Yeah, probably not, given that if they’re secretly coming up with the general platform or something they have zero way to enforce it. The armed guards are volunteers who probably don’t know who is on the council.
 
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Terminal Blue

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It's the OK sign. It's been used by many people over the years.
Correct.

It's not a specific political symbol.
Incorrect.

Again, during the run up to the 2016 election it was popularised by Trump supporting media personalities as a way of indicating political support for Donald Trump (again, let's just ignore the racial undertones and pretend it was an entirely neutral pro-Trump thing at that point).

A load of trolls from 4chan claimed it was then pointed to examples of people using it alongside republicans and pointed out some White supremacist saying "OK" to Trump essentially showing their endorsement to Trump.
Okay, so you acknowledge that it was used as a pro-Trump symbol prior to 4chan's campaign. Great, it sounds like we're getting somewhere.

However, Journalists were already pointing out various alt-right media personalities use of the sign before 4chan's campaign. At best, a bunch of Trump supporters on 4chan signal boosted these claims that were already being made by journalists in order to discredit those journalists by association.

The trolls could have just as easily claimed it was a sign of the democrat party showing democrat and people meeting them making the sign.
No, they couldn't. Because journalists had not already pointed out a connection between the okay hand sign and the democratic party.

Again, and this is very important, 4chan didn't actually create this story.

Or they're just trolls
Why should anyone care if they are?

No it wasn't happening already or already a major movement enough to be noticed.
February 13, 2017: Jim Hoft and Lucian Wintric tweet a picture of themselves making the sign in the White House press briefing room. Literally the same day, liberal media watchdog Media Matters publish an article describing it as a hate symbol. Here is the article, note the date: https://www.mediamatters.org/gateway-pundit/dangerous-troll-now-reporting-white-house

Februry 27 2017: The Operation O-KKK thread is opened.

Again, it was already a thing.

I know it's comforting to believe, but you can't really change the world by making a few sock puppet accounts. By the time Cernovich and Fairbanks did the okay sign in the white house in April, all the articles published were already mentioning the 4chan hoax as part of the story. I can't find a single piece of evidence of anyone actually being deceived by this. Either they were already responding to something else, or they knew about the hoax and just didn't care because it wasn't a very important part of the story.

Every few months, I hear from a few antifascists on my network about 4chan trying to start up a false flag hashtag. You know what comes of all those hashtags? Literally nothing. Who remembers or cares about #droptheb or #endfathersday. Who even saw or reacted to these things, other than sock puppets and a few people who came in to laugh at how transparent and lazy it was. Honestly, the TERFs over on mumsnet are better at false flag social media campaigns that 4chan.
 
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Palindromemordnilap

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Plenty do still have identification on them if you look
Just want to note that at this point you’re arguing that statues are perfect monuments for learning history because some of them have names sometimes. Methinks in your haste to shout “nun-uh!” you’ve forgotten what it is you’re trying to be arguing for again


You chose the statue Boudica and her supporters pulled down lol.
Which is an irrelevant fact to the point I’m making. The statue could have been destroyed by Prasutagus, Caractacus or even old Cogidubnus and my argument remains the same. An argument that you clearly don’t have decent response to given your repeated attempts to divert from it


Well quote a bit of history does get lost or erased or just forgotten about except in old dusty tomes.
It sure does, thus demonstrating that it’s books and not statues that do the teaching. Thanks for disproving your own point for me

If history is not lost then why would it need to be revised unless more new information were found again?
Because we look at what we have in a new light. We reassess sources or get a fresh look at something via new technology.





And relying on pop culture alone to inform you of the past is actually something people have argued against. Hence why Gone with the Wind is being pulled to add a something to point out about inaccurate portrayals etc.

According to Shakespeare Richard the 3rd was a deformed hunchback and evil. According to history he likely didn't have a hunchback at all and wasn't some evil monster.
People who say we can’t learn from pop culture don’t understand that’s basically what history is. Hell, I wrote my masters dissertation on all the insight into Greek culture their mythology gives us, I know what I’m talking about here. You may not be able to take it as an exact replication of history but it shows you how people thought. Richard III did in fact have a twisted spine, for example. Not a hunchback but a very bad case of scoliosis. Which means Shakespeare’s exaggerated villainous example was in fact more accurate (physically at any rate) than the scholars who dismissed that version out of hand. And if you’re worried that exaggerated versions are still too biased to serve as history...what exactly do you think statues are if not exaggerated?


Because it's not a victory. It solves nothing. It's a stupid symbolic act that in this case means nothing. Also they've been going after any statue regardless of history lol.

They've been targeting statues of abolitionists and others too lol.
It doesn’t mean nothing to them. To them it means a man who made his money from selling people like them into slavery is no longer glorified for all the money he made selling people like them into slavery. How would you feel if a statue was made of someone who bullied you at school just because he funded a community garden with all the lunch money he took from you?

Yet do we not now only know of those people's look and other stuff or that they were prominent due to finding the statues that survived due to various reason?
I’m sorry is your grand justification for why statues are the pinnacle of historical knowledge really going to be because it lets us see the one suit the subject wore?
 
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Revnak

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Based on the most recent broadcast I honestly can’t say I’ve much hope for CHOP. Regardless of who’s showing up to do the shootings, police aren’t likely to release any leads until they get the precinct back, and there isn’t exactly any clear video evidence of how the shooting occurred. At this point their options are to keep people out at night, requiring an absurdly unethical use of force to maintain that, or start to cave. Doesn’t honestly matter if White Nationalists or Boogs did the shootings since it can’t readily be shown they did. I guess they could try to conduct an independent investigation, but that’s probably not gonna get far enough fast enough.
Edit: Escapist broke the link https://m.twitch.tv/ videos/657978639 just remove the space
 

Agema

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So, then, on what basis can you say that this account is a fake/joke account? Because they've expressed a viewpoint that you don't think that a member of CHOP should have?
On what basis should anyone assume any Twitter account is genuine without verification?

It's like asserting you know something to be a fact on the basis that some random guy in a pub told you it.
 

Terminal Blue

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The forum is judging me for long posts, apparently, so part 2.

No the joke is getting people to believe that it is a symbol of white supremacy and be so firm in that belief they'll attack others over using the symbol.
Let's do a thought experiment.

Let's say that that I look at all these pictures of white supremacists and alt-right people doing the okay sign, and I assume that literally everyone who makes that hand gesture is a white supremacist, regardless of context and disregarding any obvious political intent. So let's say I see someone, let's call them Bob, making the sign in what is clearly a totally innocent context, and because of that I decide that Bob is a white supremacist.

Now, let's say I harass Bob online, I get all my friends to send him abuse, I message Bob's employer to try and get him fired, I send abusive messages to Bob's family. All these horrible things you claim are happening to innocent people yet can provide no evidence of. Bob has to quit social media. Maybe he gets fired. Maybe his family disowns him and refuses to speak to him.

So, let's say that you confront me and ask me why I'm doing these things, and I turn around and say "Well, it's a joke."

So you say "How can this be a joke, you're ruining this man's life!"

And I say "Well, Bob is a white supremacist, and watching him react to his life falling apart is funny to me. Therefore, it's a joke."

Do you see the problem?

When a joke is not required to have any trace of irony to it, but is solely based on provoking a reaction from someone regardless of whether that reaction is justified or based in reality, then almost anything can be a joke provided it makes people react. Again, if you "trick" people into thinking that white supremacists are using the okay sign, and then white supremacists start using the okay sign, then that's no longer a joke. There's no longer any irony. You're just pretending that people are idiots for reacting to something which is actually happening.

I realise that we're dealing with people for whom "free helicopter rides" is the height of humour, but come on. You're not this dumb, I refuse to believe it.

Were the POPE, OBAMA, Hillary and Bill and AOC all signalling to their secret white supremacist supporters too?
No, and noone ever said that they were, so why is it relevant.

The joke is people falling for it and their reaction to it.
But they're not falling for anything.

They are seeing something which is accurate. White supremacists do use the okay sign. It was added to the ADL database because white supremacists use it unironically. You can't fool people into believing something which is actually true. Making people believe something which is true is called education. You should try it.

White supremacists also exist in the same world we do with much of the same cultural symbols. If they started doing bunny ears behind one anothers heads in photos would bunny ears be a sign of white supremacy?
Firstly, it's not bunny ears, it's the horns of the cuckold.

The meaning of that symbol is already pejorative. It's a traditional insult implying that the person making the symbol has slept with the spouse of the victim, so white supremacists doing it wouldn't really be distinguishable from its preexisting use.

But if a lot of white supremacists started doing it all at once to mean something a little different from its traditional meaning, then yes, it would become a sign of white supremacy. Of course, that wouldn't mean that everyone who did it, or has ever done it, would be a white supremacist. Only you think that is what it would mean, because you have no understanding of context (except when it suits you). Most people do, because most people are not as dumb as you are pretending to be.

So Scuba divers don't exist above water?
Above water, we call them humans. They are very similar, but they don't wear scuba gear and can communicate through vocalisations from their mouths instead of their hands.

Just humans doing human things.

I'd think you'd therefore get how much it puts you at odds with a certain political position assuming you faced it due to right wing people
Marginalization doesn't make people racist.

If someone calls you a racist on the internet, and your response is to become a racist, then whoever called you a racist should be congratulated for seeing through you.

If someone calls you a racist, and your response is to look back at the things you have done that might cause a person to think that way, to look honestly at the reasons why you did those things and to take responsibility for your actions while distancing yourself from racist intent, then it's very unlikely that you will not find forgiveness.

I've been called out for being racist in the past. I wasn't born with perfect politics and noone is. However, unless someone is actually trolling you (in which case, lol cool trolls man its like the joker) then responding to accusations of racism just means accepting that you have hurt people and managing their feelings. People do it successfully every day.

At best it's a silly tokenistic gesture
Wow, fascinating.

Tell me more of your opinions on periods.

I misread that bit but the point is 4chan goes after anyone
4chan is an internet message board..

It's an internet message board with a lot of white supremacists on it.

The fact that 4chan "goes after anyone" will not change the latter.

Hell in this case it likely wasn't an attack but some dumb meme propaganda thing about "Disabled people 4 Trump, they see me rollin they hatin" or something.

The Attacks against her the actual attacks came from people who despise Trump and attacked her out of belief she supported Trump
You realise, we're literally watching you make up imaginary facts about this incident in real time.

Except 4chan only cares for causing chaos and getting people to fall for jokes for the most part or cause people to get mad.
Ah yes. White supremacists and incels are extremely well known for not getting mad about anything.
 

Silvanus

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And what impact does he have outside of Bristol really?
That's build on the back of his acts in places
Are you kidding? How about the impact on the west coast of Africa, of abducting and enslaving 84,000 people?

Well if people are calling him racist when he acknowledged his views were wrong later it isn't caring about his full actual history just one part of it and using that part to condemn or call for his statues removal. Thus any slip up condemns a person for live and even after it. Also the famine argument the Historians the BBC had on said it wasn't likely intentional actions on his part but an unfortunate effect of trying to work supply lines to the front at the time.
Why is it not "caring about his full actual history"? Is it impossible to recognise racism in a person, and also recognise that they did other things?

On the other side of the coin: if we refuse to call him a racist because he changed his mind at some point, surely that's not "caring about his full actual history", too-- it's just scrubbing out the bad parts instead.

Just an FYI I've started a new thread for all the J.K. Rowling stuff as it's more of a separate topic I feel.


If you want I can address this post of yours there.
That's fair enough.
 

Agema

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Are you kidding? How about the impact on the west coast of Africa, of abducting and enslaving 84,000 people?
Let's not forget his kindness to sealife, when about 20% of those died en route and were dumped off the boats into the water, thus providing food for the fishes.
 
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tstorm823

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Doesn’t honestly matter if White Nationalists or Boogs did the shootings since it can’t readily be shown they did.
It wouldn't matter if you did prove it was White Nationalists. If the autonomous zone is supposed to be peaceful and keep people safe from racism and fascism, and then white supremacists go around shooting people unimpeded, it's still not a good sign for the experiment.
 
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Agema

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It wouldn't matter if you did prove it was White Nationalists. If the autonomous zone is supposed to be peaceful and keep people safe from racism and fascism, and then white supremacists go around shooting people unimpeded, it's still not a good sign for the experiment.
My experiences of anarchists over the years is that they absolutely believe in communal defence. They don't look for trouble because other people's business is not their concern, but if trouble comes looking for them with guns, the anarchists doing it properly are ready with their own guns.

I suspect the CHAZ/CHOP/whatever is a probably a lot more impractical and "hippyish" than the anarchists I knew.
 

tstorm823

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My experiences of anarchists over the years is that they absolutely believe in communal defence. They don't look for trouble because other people's business is not their concern, but if trouble comes looking for them with guns, the anarchists doing it properly are ready with their own guns.

I suspect the CHAZ/CHOP/whatever is a probably a lot more impractical and "hippyish" than the anarchists I knew.
Perhaps they aren't anarchists, they're communists.
 
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Eacaraxe

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Perhaps they aren't anarchists, they're communists.
"Communism" is a theory and prescriptive methodology for the achievement of an anarchist state. Good God, if you're going to yammer about "communism" at least try to have the first clue what it is.
 

Revnak

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"Communism" is a theory and prescriptive methodology for the achievement of an anarchist state. Good God, if you're going to yammer about "communism" at least try to have the first clue what it is.
No, he actually got at something. Anarchists and Marxists are actually different, he just has zero understanding of how or why.
 
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Agema

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Just no. Communism and Anarchism have very different end states. The former is collectivist and envisions a society in which workers unite around the means of production to collectively decide how to use them for the good of everyone. Anarchism is individualist and wants to see a society in which no person is beholden to any other and is free to do as they wish. Despite both occupying the extreme left of the traditional political spectrum they have never gotten along, which can easily be explained by how communism is Leftist-Authoritarian while Anarchism is Leftist-Libertarian (if using the political compass as a reference). The difference is so vast that the communists and anarchists couldn't even co-operate during the Spanish Civil War, despite having their biggest mutual enemy, fascism, on the other side.

If you want to knock on others for not understanding what communism is, it behooves you to at least understand it yourself.
Socialist libertarianism still has a society, and thus still needs societal organisation and co-operation, and ways of making decisions, with the means of production also owned communally. In practice, collective activity is almost certainly going to have be agreement by individuals based on democratic process. Anarchists don't believe in hierarchy, so an individual does not actually have to obey the decision-making process... but this is likely to have very negative ramifications, because the rest of the community can decline to co-operate with them.

Communism in the sense you suggest does not make sense, because if "the community" can set orders and make someone obey, then the state still exists.
 
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