First, she’s a local representative, not necessarily a protest leader. Second, she ain’t even black. I don’t see how this is relevant.
National Guard called into Minneapolis
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Why does she have to be black? Is the movement so discriminatory that only black people can be a part of the movement, and no other voices (of color) matter?
Would you like me to type #BlackLivesMatter and #ACA5 into the twitter search bar to give you examples of black people supporting discrimination, if her voice doesn't count?
Who are the #BLM protest leaders? Is there a list somewhere I can reference? If those leaders don't tweet it or if it isn't on their official website, does that mean it's not officially supported by the movement?
People are using the #BLM hashtag to elevate and support #ACA5, regardless of whether it's officially supported by the 'leaders'. #BLM, judging by their actions, is pro-discrimination. Maybe if the leaders don't like it, they should denounce it.
See, this is why naming is important. If the movement were called "All Lives Matter" or "Police Reform NOW!" or something, I think you'd have a much harder time mentally connecting that with VOTING TO REPEAL ANTI-DISCRIMINATION LAWS.
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This whole thread is basically, "White people determined to prove BLM right." That's where we are at this point.
I feel like our attempts of communication are soon coming to a close. I was determined for a while to stick it out, but then you said that part about points you made in post 1548 and 1583, yet you continually only respond to what you want to. Examples? You betcha. My post 1541, where I was responding to Schadrach's post? When Schadrach said that there are other groups that are harmed by the police, I said that the point is fix the policing system so all citizens do not have to fear them. I said that the rest of the populous allows this by intentionally ignoring the situation. I said that I as a black man wouldn't be happy if things went before me, but not for others. That I want more people to step up and decry the police tactics. I stated that the police should arrest the right person, and put the appriopate amount of effort to do so. Not brutalize people and hide behind the Blue Shield.
How many of those points did you respond to? One.
In the direct quote that I'm responding to now, You didn't touch on how I pointed out that Minorities have been dealing with racial incensing names forever, and we never were spurned to violence over it. Yet we're supposed to Kowtow the second that a few people do not like a name we pick? You did not address my point about the people will be bound and determined to ignore the facts for their own 'side'.
Is it possible in a thread of 81 pages, people just might not have seen it? That doesn't mean you have an ironclad argument. It's a flimsy one. I support Fighting Games and VR first person shooters. I support meat eaters and vegans. I support BLM and honest police officers. People are capable of supporting Black Lives Matter, Hispanic Lives Matter, any lives that matter (which are all of them, by the way) simultaneously. And those groups are able to support each other so we speak as one voice.
There. Your points are contested with the points that we as regular human beings give our support freely to many different causes without issue, and this would be another one.
And this another reason why our conversations are coming to an end. The petty thing is to intentionally miss the movement because you want to make a big deal about the name. And I'm not using the general application of 'you'. I'm specifically addressing you, Houseman, when I say that. The movement itself is grand and it is actually making strides to change. The point is millions of people understand that blacks are being treated unfairly, by a police force empowered by gross amounts of powers afforded to them.
More over, it is you who advised me to allow my rights to be violated and possibly body be violated by officers if it comes to that. To hope that I get lucky that if I'm stopped by an officer, that it would be one of the good ones. Or let it happen and fight it in court which might net me some coin, but rarely actually brings change to the police as a whole.
In fact, most of your suggestions seem to be always the submission of us for the ease of a situation. To 'not give others excuses'. Where was that mindset when the police brutalized the minority community for decades? Where were the calls from the Majority to say to the police, "Hey, lay off a bit. You can see how bad this looks, right?". Where senseless murder, brutalization, the violation of rights by untold number of black America happened every day, I don't recall many voices of the majority saying that we shouldn't give Black America a reason to act out. Even though that would have been wise to do to ease off pressure, more importantly it would have been the Human Thing To Do.
So I and others reject that. Now and forever. Waiting for social change at the hands of a benevolent majority has lead to exactly this moment. One voice, millions of people in chorus, has been birthed by the inaction of the majority. Which yielded the very notion of acceptance that Police and Government officials have ran with for Decades.
And the answer? "Hey, can you make it easier for me to deal with? That'll be great, thanks."
Because it constantly is used by bigots as a symbol of counterprotest against BLM. It already has been used as a major argument of opposition and condemnation to the movement.
It's amazing what a little Global Unity Can Do. It seems like a lot of things that would have been left buried see the light of day when people stand as one and say we won't accept this any more
It's not a satisfying answer. But the real one. Like this instance, where several officers reacted strongly when their fellow officer shoved the head of a kneeling protester.
Entire departments can be bad. I'll never argue with you there. And we have Blue for Black Lives Matter.
This doesn't erase the poor gentleman who was pushed on the ground and stepped over like trash. It doesn't excuse the actions of those officers who just went on clubbing. It doesn't excuse my example that I just posted. It stresses that the gamble that everyone takes when they are dealing with police officers, heady with the need for power and authority. But not every cop. It's as simple as that.
That doesn't erase my fear for cops, mind you. Every stop is a figurative Russian Roulette for someone like me.
I'm not a fan, but it's a healthy reminder than even in our selected bubbles we immerse ourselves in, there will be people who oppose your ideals. In no way can we allow their actions to speak for all white people.
Because once again, we don't even know if they are white. And even if they are, They are individuals. Like we constantly remind others that black people are as well. And try to say that police officers are. The police in this country DEFINTELY need a overhaul, but we know for a fact that there are cops out there fighting the good fight.
*Warning, Acts of Violence*
Not there.
It's not a satisfying answer. But the real one. Like this instance, where several officers reacted strongly when their fellow officer shoved the head of a kneeling protester.
Entire departments can be bad. I'll never argue with you there. And we have Blue for Black Lives Matter.
This doesn't erase the poor gentleman who was pushed on the ground and stepped over like trash. It doesn't excuse the actions of those officers who just went on clubbing. It doesn't excuse my example that I just posted. It stresses that the gamble that everyone takes when they are dealing with police officers, heady with the need for power and authority. But not every cop. It's as simple as that.
That doesn't erase my fear for cops, mind you. Every stop is a figurative Russian Roulette for someone like me.
Listen, there are maybe... three people here that are putting up some questionable arguments about Black Lives Matter. And we don't even know the race of them.
I'm not a fan, but it's a healthy reminder than even in our selected bubbles we immerse ourselves in, there will be people who oppose your ideals. In no way can we allow their actions to speak for all white people.
Because once again, we don't even know if they are white. And even if they are, They are individuals. Like we constantly remind others that black people are as well. And try to say that police officers are. The police in this country DEFINTELY need a overhaul, but we know for a fact that there are cops out there fighting the good fight.
USA
It isn't supposed to be racially neutral and to suggest such would take away from what it actually means. " Black lives matter" doesn't need improvement, it gets directly to the point. Currently, all lives matter more than black lives ALREADY. Stating "Black lives matter". Period, not "in addition to" as an afterthought diminishes the message. They have been left out long enough. We should be able to state this and it finally be okay to do so without people taking offense. We should be able to finally expect the world to see black lives as being equally important, because the reality is society does not. The name does not need improvement as stating anything else would again attempt to diminish the message to take away the meaning here and expect it not to stand on it's own merit. Suggesting it even needs improvement means you do not see the value and weight in the actual message that needs to sink in here. When the meaning of the message finally sinks in, you will get why it is perfect just the way it is.
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Oh, okay, so you just missed it? Why didn't you just say that at first?
Why try to paint me as a hypocrite by saying "You didn't respond to X, Y, and Z, so don't call me out on not responding to this!" when you could have just said "Oops, sorry, let me go respond to that right now".
If you've ever made a point that you want me to respond to, either repeat it or point back to it, like I did.
I'm not going to do a line-by-line breakdown for everything you post, so please don't expect that. I'll highlight and respond to what I see as crucial points of disagreement. I'm trying to get at the heart of the matter, and there's a lot of fluff that I have to move out of the way to do that. I'm not ignoring what you write, I'm just responding to what I see as the most important parts.
Like I said, if there's a part you see as more important, feel free to point it out and ask that I address it. I will be happy to do so. It's hard for me to know what you want me to address, because your responses are more free-flowing and less pointed than mine, so I apologize for that.
You're supposed to choose a better name, for your own sake, and for the sake of the movement. Because your current name creates more, worse problems than it solves.
Not until the seven questions I asked in 1,548 have been answered.
Whenever I said anything about "the submission of us for the ease of a situation", I never said that doing so would fix all the problems. I never said that would bring about police reform. I've only ever spoken for the individual. The individual may survive the situation and 'go home happy' by complying (being submissive to) with the police.
You're saying "being submissive doesn't solve all the problems", and I agree with you. I never said otherwise.
I never suggested that you should 'wait for social change at the hands of a benevolent majority'. I think you forgot what we were talking about and got carried away by your own inspiring speech.
The slogan is bad, was my point. Remember when we were talking about that?
"Black Lives Matter" does not suggest 'equality'. It suggests a focus on one group of people. "Black". You said it yourself, it's not racially neutral.
Although levels of discrimination exist for other minorities, including Hispanics, the statement" Hispanic lives matter" would not have the same message weight or meaning as it has already been shown that Hispanic lives already matter more than black lives. In fact, our actual studies have shown that people are even more sympathetic to robots and even PURPLE skinned people in pain than they are to Blacks, even among Blacks themselves due to social conditioning. It is seriously that disturbing at this point.
Racial bias weakens our ability to feel someone else’s pain
Racial bias weakens our ability to feel someone else’s pain
www.discovermagazine.com
How Physicians and nurses treat patients and determine whether or not they are in pain, how officers treat people, how judges determine sentences, how juries determine guilt are all impacted by this. Often, most are not even aware of this, thus why these studies are so important. We have to address this issue specifically, as it is unique and not the same throughout the different ethnicities. Keeping in mind that even I see this, coming from a group that was almost entirely ethnically exterminated from this earth. Even I see that people are more wiling to empathize with my pain and death than they are to Blacks, and that it is a severe issue that we must change and address due to how skewed this actually is. You cannot universally apply the need to state " Black lives matter" to all ethnicities as it does not need to be stated for the other ethnicities. That is the entire point. Literally even purple peoples lives matter more than Blacks. That is why this specific message is so important and needs to be said in the first place.
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This is the first time I categorically refuse something you said. There is no one better. No one. We are both men. We have the capability of doing great things and bad things in equal measure. We have the same goal, my friend. Equality.
... Ok, Idris Elba is a better man than me. And if I had my way, Lenny Kravitz would be focused to wear a mask in public so I can feel ok about myself, but those are personal exceptions.
It's a hypothetical. The way to engage with a hypothetical is to accept, for the sake of argument, that the premises are true and then roll with it.
None of this is hypothetical. All the scientific evidence we have all tells us the same thing here. The data doesn't lie. The ONLY reason why " Black lives matter" HAS to be said is because according to all the data we have, they appear to be the only ethnicity that does not seem to matter as much as everyone else. People literally even care about robots MORE than darker skinned humans. This is the F'd up reality we are dealing with. If that were the case for any other ethnicity, which it is not, we would need to say that as well, but since it is not, there is no actual need to say it. The weight and actual meaning of the message is the only reason the message exists in the first place.
Alright. Then you are a more patient and restrained man than I am. I don't deny, my passions burn hot. Sometimes to my detriment. I haven't reached the level of moral clarity that you have. Someday.
...I really think you're missing the point. You know what hypotheticals are, right? What hypotheticals are made to do, right? Because bringing in real-world data into hypotheticals is something that's just not done because that DEFEATS THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THE HYPOTHETICAL!
Okay, how about this. Take my hypothetical that you quoted, and replace "Hispanic" with "Asari" and "Black" with "Quarian". Y'know, from Mass Effect.
There. Now your statistics and data don't matter.
So feel free to engage with the hypothetical with these replacements in mind.
That dismisses the entire meaning of the message in the first place. The message only exists at all due to the existence of the empathy disparity. If the empathy disparity did not exist, the message would not exist in the first place. Attempting to place it any other context removes the meaning of the actual message and would serve no purpose.
No it doesn't. It's my hypothetical. I made it. I know what it means. I know that the meaning doesn't change whether you replace Black and Hispanic with Asari and Quarian or Flurple and Blorange or any other real, fantasy, or made-up term.
At this point I'm convinced that you don't know what hypotheticals are. Please do some research. I won't be responding to you any further on this subject.
Yea, it is pretty blatantly apparent at this point that you do not actually view the gravity of this subject of the lives currently being lost here as being a serious issue that should be addressed as such and would rather dismiss the actual meaning here and instead it being more important to you to discuss non existent irrelevant alien hypothetical scenarios so yea, you might actually be doing me a favor by not continuing with this line of thought in regards to the topic at hand. I bid you Good day then.
Maybe, but only if you ignore completely their arguments and actions, and focus solely on the slogan.
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