Another Incident in Portland

lil devils x

🐐More Lego Goats Please!🐐
Legacy
May 1, 2020
3,330
1,045
118
Country
🐐USA🐐
Gender
♀
You also get US police murdering people on camera and getting away with it. OTOH, if they are recording themselves, it's not a civilian doing the filming who coincidentally gets locked up for something else and has rat poison in their food for some reason.
It is much harder for them to get away with it when they are being filmed. Look at how people responded to seeing George Floyd murdered like that. If police know that they could be the next Derek Chauvin on all the news networks, they may rethink how they are treating the person in their custody, they may rethink being so quick to draw, hell those who WANT to do these things just may quit so we don't have to deal with them at all. Then we will be able to start actual meaningful reform.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
5,282
3,105
118
Country
United States of America
It is much harder for them to get away with it when they are being filmed. Look at how people responded to seeing George Floyd murdered like that. If police know that they could be the next Derek Chauvin on all the news networks, they may rethink how they are treating the person in their custody, they may rethink being so quick to draw, hell those who WANT to do these things just may quit so we don't have to deal with them at all. Then we will be able to start actual meaningful reform.
Unless you're going to make turning off a bodycam or keeping the subject of your aggression off screen mandatorily punished by life in prison (or whatever), this is all insufficient.
 
  • Like
Reactions: crimson5pheonix

lil devils x

🐐More Lego Goats Please!🐐
Legacy
May 1, 2020
3,330
1,045
118
Country
🐐USA🐐
Gender
♀
Unless you're going to make turning off a bodycam or keeping the subject of your aggression off screen mandatorily punished by life in prison (or whatever), this is all insufficient.
They should be fired for turning off body cams regardless of if someone was murdered. The point is dealing with those officers before it comes to that. In addition, they would have to have ALL officers involved have their body cameras off because usually they have back up involved as well. They would be charged accordingly to their crimes. assault would be charged as assault and they would kicked off the force. Hopefully weeding out the officers before they build up to murder. Letting officers get away with all the shit they did before they murdered someone is allowing it to be taken that far in many cases when those " loose cannon" officers should have been long gone before that when you look at their records. We want to change the murders, but we want to stop the bad cops before they CAN murder as well so we can actually save lives. Once someone is dead, we can't bring them back, we can't change that. They are gone forever, so we have to focus on prevention as well as accountability.
 

Dwarvenhobble

Is on the Gin
May 26, 2020
5,936
651
118
Unless you're going to make turning off a bodycam or keeping the subject of your aggression off screen mandatorily punished by life in prison (or whatever), this is all insufficient.
1) Maybe making it so turning the camera off before an arrest or incident could be an offence but not being allowed to turn it off at all would be an issue. E.G. what happens when Police have to answer the call of nature, surely filming should be allowed to be stopped when going to the bathroom etc.

2) They're body camera on the Police not professional camera men holding the cameras so keeping the subject on screen at all times would be pretty difficult short of changing them to helmet mounted cameras as that would show the direction a person is looking in at least. As is if there is a scuffle or things happen then the subject will not be in view the whole time that's the nature of how it goes sometimes.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
5,282
3,105
118
Country
United States of America
They should be fired for turning off body cams regardless of if someone was murdered. The point is dealing with those officers before it comes to that. In addition, they would have to have ALL officers involved have their body cameras off because usually they have back up involved as well. They would be charged accordingly to their crimes. assault would be charged as assault and they would kicked off the force. Hopefully weeding out the officers before they build up to murder. Letting officers get away with all the shit they did before they murdered someone is allowing it to be taken that far in many cases when those " loose cannon" officers should have been long gone before that when you look at their records. We want to change the murders, but we want to stop the bad cops before they CAN murder as well so we can actually save lives. Once someone is dead, we can't bring them back, we can't change that. They are gone forever, so we have to focus on prevention as well as accountability.
What is typical is that police forces and prosecutors err on the side of ignoring or covering up any malfeasance by their officers, which as it turns out is pretty easy to do when you're the ones enforcing the laws. It looks like police abolition is necessary at the very least as a transitional step to accomplishing what you're talking about.
 
  • Like
Reactions: crimson5pheonix

lil devils x

🐐More Lego Goats Please!🐐
Legacy
May 1, 2020
3,330
1,045
118
Country
🐐USA🐐
Gender
♀
What is typical is that police forces and prosecutors err on the side of ignoring or covering up any malfeasance by their officers, which as it turns out is pretty easy to do when you're the ones enforcing the laws. It looks like police abolition is necessary at the very least as a transitional step to accomplishing what you're talking about.
That is why we have to have a separate outside agency involved that is not controlled on the local level so buddies can't cover for their friends anymore. The good ol' boys have been scratchin' each others back forever. the only way you stop that is bringing in outside agencies and prevent people with conflicts of interest from being able to review any of the cases.

Police abolition is a joke. It isn't going to happen and you are wasting your time even thinking such. Besides, that would just give them MORE power over everyone when their Milita/gang/ cartel only answers to themselves. Who is going to stop them when there is no police? You just wind up with the same reason the Zetas, who were made up of military and police btw, gained control over 11 states in Mexico so fast. You don't get rid of them, the police will just become your overlords instead. That is how this works in reality when you abolish police or the police have no power. They join the "use of force" group that does.
 
Last edited:

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
5,282
3,105
118
Country
United States of America
That is why we have to have a separate outside agency involved that is not controlled on the local level so buddies can't cover for their friends anymore. The good ol' boys have been scratchin' each others back forever. the only way you stop that is bringing in outside agencies and prevent people with conflicts of interest from being able to review any of the cases.
And who would staff these outside agencies? Will police and prison guard unions have an opinion on that question? Will businesses weigh in? If after all that they manage to be of some use, will prosecutors and judges honor their decisions? Will police departments cooperate with them in providing all the relevant evidence? And will police departments enforce their judgments?
 
  • Like
Reactions: crimson5pheonix

Eacaraxe

Elite Member
Legacy
May 28, 2020
1,592
1,233
118
Country
United States
You and I will never reach agreement on this. I don't believe we can have a functioning society without an institution dedicated to policing, albeit the current incarnation is corrupt and in need of reform. Entirely removing the police will necessitate an alternative group and the only ones that would be even semi capable of overseeing such a massive undertaking is the military, and I want the military in charge of policing even less than I do the current incarnations of various US police departments.
Yes yes, I get it, you want to see peace in our time with the police.

Me, I'll just be over here looking at for-profit and broken windows policing, mass incarceration and the prison industrial complex, and the complex, arcane, and obscure network of fines, fees, and penalties that make the CJ system inordinately expensive and prohibitive to defend yourself in a court of law, and realizing the biggest correlative to and predictor for violent crime is Gini coefficient. Because cops' job is to protect property and enforce the social status quo, not actually serve the public interest.

Which is why despite ten million arrests a year, the clearance rate of all reported felony offenses is 22% and only 4% end in conviction, while the clearance rate for violent crime is 45%. Amazing, that for such a critical and existentially-important societal task to fulfill upon which apparently all western civilization hinges, police manage to do a stunningly poor job (except in cases in which black and brown men and women can be pushed into neoslavery or summarily executed, at least) yet society keeps right on tickin'.
 
  • Like
Reactions: crimson5pheonix

dreng3

Elite Member
Aug 23, 2011
679
326
68
Country
Denmark
Me, I'll just be over here looking at for-profit and broken windows policing, mass incarceration and the prison industrial complex, and the complex, arcane, and obscure network of fines, fees, and penalties that make the CJ system inordinately expensive and prohibitive to defend yourself in a court of law, and realizing the biggest correlative to and predictor for violent crime is Gini coefficient. Because cops' job is to protect property and enforce the social status quo, not actually serve the public interest.
The main divergence in our views seem to be fairly fundamental. You believe that the police is constructed in order to "protect property and enforce the social status quo", whereas I believe the police was corrupted into that role. I do not disagree that there was an earlier incarnation of police that did indeed deal in the business you described, we are all too familiar with union busting and slave catching, but there was also a point at which police was organized and rules were laid down, where another purpose was stated.
By now the system has been corrupted, but I do believe that it can be corrected. We have seen, time and time again, how society will adapt and change in accordance to the will of the people. We are no longer executing people in the town square with legal consent, we are not allowing authorities to make a spectacle of punishment. We have, overall, improved throughout the ages, and we can improve further, but it does require vigilance.

You paint a brutal picture of the system of prison and punishment but, having recently been reading Discipline and Punish I think the known alternative is also quite frightening. Perhaps swing from torture and punishment as a spectacle was too hard and landed us in another mess, but it proves that change is possible.
 

lil devils x

🐐More Lego Goats Please!🐐
Legacy
May 1, 2020
3,330
1,045
118
Country
🐐USA🐐
Gender
♀
And who would staff these outside agencies? Will police and prison guard unions have an opinion on that question? Will businesses weigh in? If after all that they manage to be of some use, will prosecutors and judges honor their decisions? Will police departments cooperate with them in providing all the relevant evidence? And will police departments enforce their judgments?
Do police and prison guards unions have say in federal investigations of department misconduct as it is? No they do not. The same would apply here. It would need to be on a federal level so it cannot be as easily influenced by local politics. They would bring in federal judges and prosecutors. If police departments fail to cooperate in federal investigations they would be guilty of obstruction of justice and that is also a crime they can be charged with. It would be enforced the same way that federal agents enforce judgments now. We just need to make sure it is actually investigated and enforced and that this agency, along with all of the federal agencies we also need to have protections put in to keep them from being as politicized as they currently are now where people like Trump can come in and tell them to drop investigations or to stop enforcing at will. That is something in dire need of remedy. We need to be ale to make sure these agencies can keep going doing their job appropriately regardless of who we have in office. As we have seen with many agencies right now, we did not have near enough protections in place to prevent that from being dismantled from the inside. We have to change that.

These things are happening already, we just need to add things to the list, change how it is done and ensure better enforcement in order to obtain better compliance:


Not enough of this is happening. What should be prosecuted, the frequency it is done and the penalties for these offenses are all things we need to address here as well.
 

lil devils x

🐐More Lego Goats Please!🐐
Legacy
May 1, 2020
3,330
1,045
118
Country
🐐USA🐐
Gender
♀
Yes yes, I get it, you want to see peace in our time with the police.

Me, I'll just be over here looking at for-profit and broken windows policing, mass incarceration and the prison industrial complex, and the complex, arcane, and obscure network of fines, fees, and penalties that make the CJ system inordinately expensive and prohibitive to defend yourself in a court of law, and realizing the biggest correlative to and predictor for violent crime is Gini coefficient. Because cops' job is to protect property and enforce the social status quo, not actually serve the public interest.

Which is why despite ten million arrests a year, the clearance rate of all reported felony offenses is 22% and only 4% end in conviction, while the clearance rate for violent crime is 45%. Amazing, that for such a critical and existentially-important societal task to fulfill upon which apparently all western civilization hinges, police manage to do a stunningly poor job (except in cases in which black and brown men and women can be pushed into neoslavery or summarily executed, at least) yet society keeps right on tickin'.
When you look at the Netherlands system, they didn't do away with the police all together, they instead reformed it and have a low re offending rate because they provide actual help to their people rather than use them as slave labor. You act like these things cannot be reformed or changed for a better system, they can and everyone would be better off if we actually did so instead of trying to promote insane things like have NO police at all. there are better ways to do this, we just need to actually put forth the effort to do it.

.
 

lil devils x

🐐More Lego Goats Please!🐐
Legacy
May 1, 2020
3,330
1,045
118
Country
🐐USA🐐
Gender
♀
The main divergence in our views seem to be fairly fundamental. You believe that the police is constructed in order to "protect property and enforce the social status quo", whereas I believe the police was corrupted into that role. I do not disagree that there was an earlier incarnation of police that did indeed deal in the business you described, we are all too familiar with union busting and slave catching, but there was also a point at which police was organized and rules were laid down, where another purpose was stated.
By now the system has been corrupted, but I do believe that it can be corrected. We have seen, time and time again, how society will adapt and change in accordance to the will of the people. We are no longer executing people in the town square with legal consent, we are not allowing authorities to make a spectacle of punishment. We have, overall, improved throughout the ages, and we can improve further, but it does require vigilance.

You paint a brutal picture of the system of prison and punishment but, having recently been reading Discipline and Punish I think the known alternative is also quite frightening. Perhaps swing from torture and punishment as a spectacle was too hard and landed us in another mess, but it proves that change is possible.
I believe that even if it was designed "protect property and enforce the social status quo" ( I am not saying it was or was not as I have not researched that enough to know either way) that is irrelevant to what we want to retrain, educate and reform the police to be now. What matters is now that we shape what they are and their role to our present needs rather than dismissing change all together. Just like we retrain and adapt every job and position in our society, this too must be changed and adapted to meet our current demands. The past only is used as a learning reference to better help us understand the problems we need to address, not that we should continue any bad practices.
We have seen that other systems have been reformed in other nations and that can happen here as well. We just have to properly design the new one and then shift the current one over to the new one like we have every other field and position that exists. It is like how we had to take the people working on mainframes and retrain them to be able to build, operate and repair modern computers. I see this as no different. We just have to put forth the effort to do so.

We wouldn't just say "get rid of all the mainframe operators", instead we adapt them, retrain them and change their roles to meet the current demands instead.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Specter Von Baren

Revnak

We must imagine Sisyphus horny
Legacy
May 25, 2020
2,944
3,099
118
Country
USA
1) Maybe making it so turning the camera off before an arrest or incident could be an offence but not being allowed to turn it off at all would be an issue. E.G. what happens when Police have to answer the call of nature, surely filming should be allowed to be stopped when going to the bathroom etc.
Maybe when they stop killing people.
2) They're body camera on the Police not professional camera men holding the cameras so keeping the subject on screen at all times would be pretty difficult short of changing them to helmet mounted cameras as that would show the direction a person is looking in at least. As is if there is a scuffle or things happen then the subject will not be in view the whole time that's the nature of how it goes sometimes.
Maybe they shouldn’t kill people then.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
5,282
3,105
118
Country
United States of America
Do police and prison guards unions have say in federal investigations of department misconduct as it is? No they do not.
That is arguable. They do not have formal input.

It would need to be on a federal level so it cannot be as easily influenced by local politics
Nor would it be answerable to local communities, and it would be subject to Congressional lobbying. If the federal response to a murder committed by a cop is the equivalent of Obama going to Flint and pretending to drink the water, that's not helpful.

They would bring in federal judges and prosecutors. If police departments fail to cooperate in federal investigations they would be guilty of obstruction of justice and that is also a crime they can be charged with. It would be enforced the same way that federal agents enforce judgments now. We just need to make sure it is actually investigated and enforced and that this agency, along with all of the federal agencies we also need to have protections put in to keep them from being as politicized as they currently are now where people like Trump can come in and tell them to drop investigations or to stop enforcing at will. That is something in dire need of remedy. We need to be ale to make sure these agencies can keep going doing their job appropriately regardless of who we have in office. As we have seen with many agencies right now, we did not have near enough protections in place to prevent that from being dismantled from the inside. We have to change that.

These things are happening already, we just need to add things to the list, change how it is done and ensure better enforcement in order to obtain better compliance:
All of this would be very much easier if police department budgets were massively reduced and most officers laid off. Very little of what the police do nowadays is useful. Much of it is simply harmful. And the cultures of police departments are toxic. Shrink them as institutions and strictly limit their contact with the public.
 
  • Like
Reactions: crimson5pheonix

lil devils x

🐐More Lego Goats Please!🐐
Legacy
May 1, 2020
3,330
1,045
118
Country
🐐USA🐐
Gender
♀
I wasn't talking about Obama drinking water responses, I was talking about putting local police, sheriff in jail, thus why I linked the articles doing exactly that as examples. I would like to see congressional oversight via committee, thus making it more difficult to influence all the members rather than having it in the control of local or even state officials. You would have people from different states and party affiliation providing more obstacles to prevent having any one politician in their pocket. There is no " perfect" system, the best we can do however is put as many obstacles as we can to prevent corruption and actively work to improve it and maintain it.

I think reducing police budgets and numbers of officers would actually make it MUCH worse, not better. Before you jump on that hear me out... Less pay and less people to spread the work out always equates to overworking the few and paying them less which directly results in less quality of employees, more stress for each person and increases the likelihood of mistakes. Part of the problem with the police department as it is, is due to it being a horrible job with horrendous pay, they are not able to recruit and keep good officers instead they only attract people who want the job for it's " perks". The " perks" that are attracting these sort of people is to be able to use violence on others without going to jail, the adrenaline rush of the violent confrontations and the shoot outs when they bust down someone's door. Due to the current low pay, the job as it is designed now is attracting the very people we never want to be cops at all. In order to change this we actually have to INCREASE pay and benefits and make the job safer by increasing the number of officers AND reducing the way they handle and/ or exposed to violent situations. You attract better officers who are better equipped for deescalation training rather than adrenaline junkies getting off on escalating violence as we have now. Attracting officers who want to take care of their families and come home at the end of the day will have more motivation to deescalate violence than come in guns ablazing for the high of it all.

By increasing our training of officers, and increasing their pay and benefits, we are making a larger investment in the individual officers themselves and we want to keep GOOD quality officers both alive longer and on the force longer allowing them to take better care of their families and the officers themselves then too will have an investment in their community and their job. Currently, far too many good officers leave because they cannot support their families on the crap pay and they worry due to the current policing culture is making it too dangerous to them and their families. They don't want to leave their kids without a parent and they do not want their families targeted due to something someone in their department did to make the people angry with them. For good quality officers, that is too much to risk, so they understandably leave the force. THOSE are the ones we actually want to keep. We need to make their shifts shorter and less stressful and more family oriented so they can be there for their families and increase their pay for the time they are there. Having officers who are there as a part of the community are the ones we really need, and we need to drive the adrenaline junkies out all together. If we take away the adrenaline junkies ability to feed their violence addiction they will either get caught and get kicked and/or prosecuted or leave on their own bored. That should be our goal for dealing with both trying to attract well trained high quality officers who care about their families and their community and do not wish to harm either and get rid of the current officers who want to get off on abusing people.

We don't want to limit their contact with the public, we want them to be a part of it, be proud of it and see those they are interacting with as their own family and treat them as such, not further isolating them. Instead, we want to change how their job and role is designed with the primary focus on deescalating situations and directing people to the help they need via social workers and psychiatrists and keeping people safe by changing how they even approach or arrest people all together. I really liked how some nations use the " many officers" with shields and defensive approaches and what not to contain a suspect rather than one guy chasing them with a gun like they do in the US. We need to however, have them trained defensively and deescalation rather than offensively, increase their numbers so they work less hours and under less stress so they make fewer mistakes , for higher pay so we keep the good ones, prosecute the bad ones to get them out of here and redefine their role entirely. That would be a massive improvement to what we have now.

I see cutting pay, hiding them away and cutting numbers just makes them worse quality officers , over worked means more stressed=more mistakes and hiding them away from the public means they are not there when you need them, the community is more suspicious of them making it harder to do their job and more dangerous to them because people will more likely see them as a threat rather than someone there to help. That makes it worse on every level.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Specter Von Baren

Elijin

Elite Muppet
Legacy
Feb 15, 2009
2,067
1,028
118
I'm for police needing bodycams, and stringent regulations on them, but most of the tech just isn't at a point where you could enforce serious punishments on non-recording.
Apart from the need to be able to offer privacy in certain situations (for the officers or civilians), the tech is easy to manipulate.
I worked in a job with "full coverage" cameras. It was alarmingly easy to force a tech fault which would desync recording, and be basically impossible to prove as intentional. A tech fault which happened on it's own frequently enough that it could go unnoticed if you were busy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lil devils x

lil devils x

🐐More Lego Goats Please!🐐
Legacy
May 1, 2020
3,330
1,045
118
Country
🐐USA🐐
Gender
♀
I'm for police needing bodycams, and stringent regulations on them, but most of the tech just isn't at a point where you could enforce serious punishments on non-recording. Apart from the need to be able to offer privacy in certain situations (for the officers or civilians), the tech is easy to manipulate. I worked in a job with "full coverage" cameras. It was alarmingly easy to force a tech fault which would desync recording, and be basically impossible to prove as intentional. A tech fault which happened on it's own frequently enough that it could go unnoticed if you were busy.
Yea but it would still be difficult to explain why all officers on the scene would have all the body cams malfunctioning at the same time so there should be footage of every incident. If one officer had repeat problems with his cam after using many different cams, that would be a problem that would need to be addressed. We would expect there to be technical issues here and there that could be explained, but a pattern of it is what we would have to address. IF we already have body cams that can be controlled by dispatch, we would be able to have that footage reviewed by a independent agency. Just requiring the cam be on while on call,s making stops or arrests. It would not be on for the officers own private time and I don't think they should be taking a leak while responding to a call.

 

Elijin

Elite Muppet
Legacy
Feb 15, 2009
2,067
1,028
118
For context, the cameras fed to a unit in the car which both recorded locally and broadcasted the footage to a server.
The units had a power supply, but were also wired into the car, drawing power from the running motor.
While turning over the ignition, the system could give a power surge/interruption from over turning the key, or if the engine didnt have a smooth start.
At this point the devices were desynced, and a full reboot was necessary, but as attention was often on driving, it could go unnoticed for extended durations.
So it happened frequently in a way which wasnt obviously user manipulation.

Essentially things like remote streaming and control by dispatch add MORE error points, not less.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lil devils x

lil devils x

🐐More Lego Goats Please!🐐
Legacy
May 1, 2020
3,330
1,045
118
Country
🐐USA🐐
Gender
♀
For context, the cameras fed to a unit in the car which both recorded locally and broadcasted the footage to a server.
The units had a power supply, but were also wired into the car, drawing power from the running motor.
While turning over the ignition, the system could give a power surge/interruption from over turning the key, or if the engine didnt have a smooth start.
At this point the devices were desynced, and a full reboot was necessary, but as attention was often on driving, it could go unnoticed for extended durations.
So it happened frequently in a way which wasnt obviously user manipulation.

Essentially things like remote streaming and control by dispatch add MORE error points, not less.
That is usually how it works.. the more tech you put in the more chances for it to go wrong. Of course they could possibly add an alarm that alerts them to this, or find a work around now that they have found the problem.
 

Schadrach

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 20, 2010
1,989
354
88
Country
US
You thought Bush-Gore Florida was bad? Imagine that x1000, across several states in the US.
No matter who wins at first, this is going to happen anywhere the vote is even close. Hopefully Biden is ready to move literally the day after the election because he's only got about a month to get any questions resolved.

It reminds me of that one video where some celebrity (I want to say it was Shia Le Bouf) had put on a flag of some sort and was streaming it defiantly to virtue signal against hate for some reason on a 24/7 setup. 4chan used the position of the stars to triangulate its position and then one of them would drive around the general vicinity honking and people on stream would listen for the honk to figure out if he's getting closer to the flag being streamed. They ended up finding it and taking it down too.
It was to protest Trump being president, titled "He Will Not Divide Us." He switched to the flag after his original plan involving a public webcam wasn't going as intended.

They did this several times. Shia inadvertently created the world's best game of CTF.

Is that Aaron name somehow significant? Is it some kinda secret nazi code or something?
*EVERYTHING* is secret Nazi code for something. I could quote a random sentence from a random text and someone out there could tell me how it's secret Nazi code. Once upon a time in a previous thread I wrote (and then decided not to post) a response where I just picked four random numeric hate symbols according to the ADL in the 1-100 range, looked those numbers up on the 5e Sorcerer Wild Magic table and demonstrated that one could thusly interpret the 5e Wild Magic table as secret Nazi code. I probably still have that lying around somewhere, though my favorite was that the 23 from 23/16 (aka WP aka White Power) changed the user's skin color which could be reverted by Remove Curse (thus clearly implying that "colored" skin is a curse).

Of course, I still think 4chan should be working very very hard to get 4 or 5 of the white supremacists with the biggest social media profiles to sit down monthly and agree to just excessively use a specific emoji, word, meme or hand signal until the next meeting until literally everything is secret white supremacist code.