Aurora Police Defend ‘Stand Down’ Orders; Twice Walked Away From Arresting Man Who Terrorized Apartment Residents

[Silvanus]

From the comments I saw on the Tulsa video, yes they do. People think that the mere use of force by police to enforce the law is wrong in and of itself.

Well, I suppose if this is directed towards Eacaraxe & Kae. Suffice it to say they're not faintly representative of the general left-wing opinion on this board. I very much doubt Houseman's OP was directed specifically at those two or three people, but who can fathom.

 

[dreng3]

I mean, that's what happens now, right? What's the difference?

It seems that the only difference between the ideal scenario you submit, and today's reality (not counting this example where they just left) , is that you don't think the officers are acting in good faith. When they kill someone, investigate, and declare themselves innocent, citizens riot.

Terminal Blue's idea of citizen oversight should fix this problem

Yeah, I don't believe police is acting in good faith, and I believe that both Breonna Taylor and George Floyd demonstrates that fairly well, in one case the police got a warrant for the wrong apartment, seemingly on purpose, did a no knock raid and killed someone. In the case of Floyd the officers needed to handcuff a man pushed to the ground, not kneel on him for nearly a dozen minutes.
The police didn't even act in good faith in the case where they just left, they decided not to do their job because they created some twisted binary in which nothing was done or someone was killed. That is acting in bad faith.

And yet we're only now hearing of a grand jury being convened in the case of Taylor, and while we got to it sooner with Floyd that was only after massive public outcry.
So no, what I describe isn't what is happening, because investigation is squared away within the police departments, and even when someone is fired they can move to a different department and get a job as an officer.

Investigations need to begin sooner, they should not be performed by police, and resulting measures should not be circumventable.

 

[Samtemdo8]

I'm an anarchist dude, I think that the whole system is inherently corrupt and flawed and that the only solution is to tear it down completely and establiish a new one from the ground up, that is to say revolution, I think you're all too naive by thinking that the problem can be solved peacefully even though it has been demonstrated time and time again that it won't, because the system as is currently benefits the people in power far too much for them to accept the change, hate to break it to you housey but I'm not moderate at all, I'm pretty much as radical as one can be, I've openly endorsed a separatist army, which by the way has no police in their state and have practically non-existent problems with organised crime under an Anarchosocialist regime.

Just make sure your revolutionary ideals doesn't get spoiled by someone who has dreams of power.

That they are fighting only because they are on the wrong side of the tyranny, and not that there is a tyranny at all.

 

[Kae]

Just make sure your revolutionary ideals doesn't get spoiled by someone who has dreams of power.

That they are fighting only because they are on the wrong side of the tyranny, and not that there is a tyranny at all.

Or that the righteous anger of the revolutionary front isn't used by filthy disgusting capitalists to achieve their own ends and then get discarded by a much bigger army, AKA the story of México.

Unfortunately revolutions are a very fragile thing, so despite being the only way to dispose of the old corrupt society they're also incredibly hard to get right, that's why we want to focus on educating people, so that they can think critically, unfortunately most people aren't really willing to do so and just want to listen to a charismatic leader tell them what to do, which is how we end up with dictatorships out of genuinely noble movements.

 

[Samtemdo8]

Or that the righteous anger of the revolutionary front isn't used by filthy disgusting capitalists to achieve their own ends and then get discarded by a much bigger army, AKA the story of México.

Unfortunately revolutions are a very fragile thing, so despite being the only way to dispose of the old corrupt society they're also incredibly hard to get right, that's why we want to focus on educating people, so that they can think critically, unfortunately most people aren't really willing to do so and just want to listen to a charismatic leader tell them what to do, which is how we end up with dictatorships out of genuinely noble movements.

That's my beef with Revolutions in history, and why I somewhat think the US Revolution was the most relatively successful one.

Like whatever bad things the Founding Fathers did is small compared to the Great Terror in France. Russia's Revolution resulted in Stalin.

And I have to just take your word for it about Mexico's list of Revolutions.

 

[Buyetyen]

If I am left with two options, cops who kill or no cops, I will choose no cops.

You ever notice how the people who set up the binary always seem to assume that the rest of us would be okay with living in a totalitarian police state?

People think that the mere use of force by police to enforce the law is wrong in and of itself.

I really don't want to be given a ticket for failing to signal a turn at the end of a baton.

 

[Revnak]

That's my beef with Revolutions in history, and why I somewhat think the US Revolution was the most relatively successful one.

Like whatever bad things the Founding Fathers did is small compared to the Great Terror in France. Russia's Revolution resulted in Stalin.

And I have to just take your word for it about Mexico's list of Revolutions.

Haiti literally freed their slaves in their revolution just after ours and we ruined their country for centuries because of it. Our revolution was “successful” because white capital was comfortable with it.

 

[Buyetyen]

Like whatever bad things the Founding Fathers did is small compared to the Great Terror in France. Russia's Revolution resulted in Stalin.

You mean like genocide of the Native Americans? Wiping out entire indigenous cultures with their associated languages, music, stories, food, customs and rituals...

 

[dreng3]

You ever notice how the people who set up the binary always seem to assume that the rest of us would be okay with living in a totalitarian police state?

That hardly seems like a good faith statement, you'll notice that there are people on both sides of that sick binary in this thread, in fact the entire thread seems predicated on interpreting the relevant case as being a binary choice between police being allowed to kill and letting criminals go free.

 

[Revnak]

Well, I suppose if this is directed towards Eacaraxe & Kae. Suffice it to say they're not faintly representative of the general left-wing opinion on this board. I very much doubt Houseman's OP was directed specifically at those two or three people, but who can fathom.

I think it’s entirely possible Houseman made this thread exclusively for us, yes. Quite likely even. I find it very funny.

 

[Houseman]

Ohana means family and family means no user gets left behind.

 

[Trunkage]

Yeah, I don't believe police is acting in good faith, and I believe that both Breonna Taylor and George Floyd demonstrates that fairly well, in one case the police got a warrant for the wrong apartment, seemingly on purpose, did a no knock raid and killed someone. In the case of Floyd the officers needed to handcuff a man pushed to the ground, not kneel on him for nearly a dozen minutes.
The police didn't even act in good faith in the case where they just left, they decided not to do their job because they created some twisted binary in which nothing was done or someone was killed. That is acting in bad faith.

And yet we're only now hearing of a grand jury being convened in the case of Taylor, and while we got to it sooner with Floyd that was only after massive public outcry.
So no, what I describe isn't what is happening, because investigation is squared away within the police departments, and even when someone is fired they can move to a different department and get a job as an officer.

Investigations need to begin sooner, they should not be performed by police, and resulting measures should not be circumventable.

Just want to point out that they WEREN’T given a no knock raid. (Well, the got one that was rescinded before the raid.) The police pretended they did the raid by the book and said that Breanna got no injuries from the raid... Despite her death. That's why the city is paying out so much money

Similar with Floyd. The incident report stated he died due to him, not a police officer holding him down. And many people still believe that is true despite the video evidence. In fact, a whole bunch of people think that it corroborated the police’s story which is just astounding to me. But then there are people who believe that only 9000 people have died of COVID. I haven't yet seen a good explanation as to why they shouldn't be counted as most of these related cases probably wouldn't have died this year if COVID didn't exist. But hey, it's 2020. Facts don't matter anymore

I don't know if I have enough info on this case to say anything yet, I've been busy at work. But thinking a police report is truthful is a step too far for more

 

[Mister Mumbler]

...Okay, straight up, this is going to take a lot of effort to reply while keeping cool, so bear with me:

Of course. I don't see this as a bad thing. Everyone should be free to chime in on whether or not:
- they think the officers acted correctly or incorrectly
- whether or not this is what certain people want out of the police when they protest or say "reform" or "defund" or "abolish"
- whether or not the outcome of such desires are good or bad.

Obviously the officers here acted incorrectly, as someone who both went to (one) protest earlier this year and wants to defund/reform, no obviously not, and that last part I will answer with a counter-question: since your desire is "police are fine and need no reform whatsoever", is the outcome of the Daniel Shaver killing good or bad?

I meant, do you think the cops were using excessive force?

Obviously not, because for that 7 minute bit of ineffective tug of war, another cop smothered another unarmed man to death...


Can you guys get some imaginations please? Because this whole "cops can't do their job if they aren't allowed to dump a magazine into you if you move too quickly" is both insulting to police and sounds like something the "police are jackbooted thugs" crowd would say.

EDIT:

Just want to point out that they WEREN’T given a no knock raid. (Well, the got one that was rescinded before the raid.) The police pretended they did the raid by the book and said that Breanna got no injuries from the raid... Despite her death. That's why the city is paying out so much money

As horrible as her death was, I still think the most haunting thing about it is the fact that they were trying to shoot her boyfriend (who lived).

 

[Kwak]

That's my beef with Revolutions in history, and why I somewhat think the US Revolution was the most relatively successful one.

Like whatever bad things the Founding Fathers did is small compared to the Great Terror in France. Russia's Revolution resulted in Stalin.

It's given the world Trump, your argument is invalid.

 

[Baffle]

US police dogs are often killed by their handlers because they're in such a hurry to set their dog on someone AND shoot someone that they get confused and shoot the dog.

They also often shoot other people's dogs just because they're incompetent cowards (https://www.criminallegalnews.org/n...ice-shooting-family-dogs-has-become-epidemic/)

 

[Silvanus]

I think it’s entirely possible Houseman made this thread exclusively for us, yes. Quite likely even. I find it very funny.

You're also of the opinion that there should be no police whatsoever (or that the police should have no recourse to the use of force in any circumstances)?

 

[bluegate]

US police dogs are often killed by their handlers because they're in such a hurry to set their dog on someone AND shoot someone that they get confused and shoot the dog.

Any stories or sources to back that up? Not that I don't believe you, I just want to read up on that a bit more.

I mean... police dogs' main function is to restrain a person and keep them busy until officers can move in and do that actual detaining, so why send a dog in if you're going to just shoot moments later...

 

[Baffle]

Any stories or sources to back that up? Not that I don't believe you, I just want to read up on that a bit more.

Just look up the K9 deaths on the Officer Down website -- plenty of '(Gunfire, inadvertent)' causes of death (where inadvertent doesn't actually mean accidental, just that it was the police who did the shooting).

I disagree with using dogs in this fashion. Drug sniffing, rescue, etc., fine. Dogs are great at those things. Training a dog to hunt down and attack a person, knowing you're honing an instinct that, when that dog turns it on you, you'll shoot it for is disgusting. Like, chase the suspect yourself you lazy bastard - you've only got to get close enough to shoot him in the back anyway.

That said, a lot of the deaths are heat exhaustion because the stupid bastards just left the dog to bake in a car, so I guess we can see how valued they are.

 

[Revnak]

You're also of the opinion that there should be no police whatsoever (or that the police should have no recourse to the use of force in any circumstances)?

Any force I’d approve of would be hard to call cops given the at best passing resemblance. Civilian oversight, sparse authority to arrest, some degree of prison abolition, few arms, etc. So long as there are laws there will obviously be some sort of law enforcement, and I’d prefer they not be hired guns, but the current system of American policing is unsalvagable.

 

[Samtemdo8]

It's given the world Trump, your argument is invalid.

I was thinking the period in US history when the Founding Fathers were still around.

I am aware that the the US has changed completely into something else then what the Fathers envisioned.