Biden v. Trump Election Mega Thread

[lil devils x]

1) It was in Wuhan a lot of the work or the areas round there.

2) It COULD have just been a localised source of the illness. It's China who knows maybe a poisoned lot of rice or some cult doing a series of attacks on people using some unknown virus.


At the time some scientists were definitely saying to be on alert and prepare and such but WHO and others were saying to wasn't a threat at the time (this was mostly due to them getting a lot of criticism for the perceived over reaction to Bird Flu which turned out to be extremely mild.

The Us Pandemic team is supposed to be mobilizing BEFORE it is declared a pandemic by WHO so that they are prepared for when it is determined to be a pandemic by WHO. It is their job to be ahead of the virus not playing catchup because Oh yea.. we didn't even have a dedicated pandemic team anymore due to Trump in the first place.

‘Blinking Red’: A Running Timeline of How the Trump Administration Ignored Warnings, Misled the Public, and Made the Coronavirus Crisis Worse

This interactive timeline presents the important details about what Trump and his administration have and haven’t done about the coronavirus pandemic—every ignored warning; every needless, wasteful fight; and every tragic misstep they try to spin into success.

www.americanprogress.org

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

What are you talking about? Even the medical and scientific community in the US did not think the risk was low in December, how do you claim to have known this? Instead, people were become increasingly concerned from what they were hearing coming from the medical community in China IN December. You do realize The US has physicians and scientists IN China too don't you? People were talking about this in the medical community in December. That was why Germany started stockpiling PPE before anyone else did. They have physicians and scientists in China as well. This was not " unknown" to the medical and scientific community in December. Sure conservative media attempted to downplay it, that isn't what anyone else was doing. People have some seriously weird understandings on how things work with China. We have medical conferences there with Physicians and scientists from all over the world..

If The US had a dedicated Pandemic Response team like Germany had, they too would have been aware as well.

Hobbits... People act like the global scientific and medical community is somehow shut off from China. They are not. LOL

There's a difference between those considered to be scientific advisers to people in authority and Scientists.

Yes Scientists were worried. Those higher up advising seemed not to be. Again the WHO didn't even say it could spread person to person until part way into January. It wasn't until in February they declare the Public health emergency.

Part of this was criticism over an over-reaction and overstocking in relation to Avian Flu which turned out far more mild.

 

[lil devils x]

There's a difference between those considered to be scientific advisers to people in authority and Scientists.

Yes Scientists were worried. Those higher up advising seemed not to be. Again the WHO didn't even say it could spread person to person until part way into January. It wasn't until in February they declare the Public health emergency.

Part of this was criticism over an over-reaction and overstocking in relation to Avian Flu which turned out far more mild.

The US pandemic response team was originally made up of Scientists, as it should be. That team was disbanded and they put a couple of the people from the former Pandemic team on the Counterproliferation and Biodefense on the National Security Council instead merging them with a minor role but primarily focused on Biological and Chemical warfare instead of having a dedicated Pandemic response looking out for exactly this situation.

Scroll down to November 2019 in that timeline linked above and start reading from there... US intelligence knew about it in November. The government's job is to know about it before the media does. Trump ignored multiple warnings and didn't even make a Pandemic response team until after the fact, and he ignorantly didn't put scientists in control over it.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Right, so it's enough for one's predecessors to be competent at some point. The model of meritocracy!

No but Apple is seemingly falling out of favour.

I've not been a fan of it from the start but you hear much more criticism of it now and people turning from it.

The Us Pandemic team is supposed to be mobilizing BEFORE it is declared a pandemic by WHO so that they are prepared for when it is determined to be a pandemic by WHO. It is their job to be ahead of the virus not playing catchup because Oh yea.. we didn't even have a dedicated pandemic team anymore due to Trump in the first place.

‘Blinking Red’: A Running Timeline of How the Trump Administration Ignored Warnings, Misled the Public, and Made the Coronavirus Crisis Worse

This interactive timeline presents the important details about what Trump and his administration have and haven’t done about the coronavirus pandemic—every ignored warning; every needless, wasteful fight; and every tragic misstep they try to spin into success.

www.americanprogress.org

And again it wasn't until mid January people even knew it spread from person to person

 

[lil devils x]

No but Apple is seemingly falling out of favour.

I've not been a fan of it from the start but you hear much more criticism of it now and people turning from it.




And again it wasn't until mid January people even knew it spread from person to person

Again READ THE TIMELINE. They knew it could spread from person to person in the early reports.. Read the links provided in the timeline.
National Center for Medical Intelligence notified them of this in November. You know what the definition of a contagion is right?

 

[Kae]

Of course, national defence is usually considered part of the role of the government. So failing to defend against outside interference could be said to be a failure of the system in itself.

Indeed a fundamental flaw of the Anarchist movement is that it's contempt for authoritarianism and violence leads to very weak military, which makes it rather vulnerable to invaders, it's part of the reason why we speak in terms of global Anarchy, because the truth is that if a applied on a national level it's relatively easy to destroy, it's part of the reason why I'm interested in the EZLN that does have a military force, which while not great, has been able to fend off the Mexican military in numerous occasions and been able to protect it's sovereignty, that being said, even if global Anarchy was achieved it's stands to reason that people wouldn't feel safe if there's not enough structural protection of possible insurgent movements, so while we try to get around this by recommending the people to be armed and be ready to form a militia I can understand if most people find this unsatisfactory and think of it as an inherent weakness of Anarchy.

The EZLN incorporates elements of anarchic theory but does not run an anarchic society. They would reject that description themselves.

While it is true that Zapatistas & Neozapatistas don't like the term Anarchy and their philosophy is a bit different, their society applies too many elements of Anarchic theory for us not to recognise it, besides part of the reason why it doesn't share a name is because it's a theory that originated from uneducated farmers and as such the founders of it had no knowledge of Anarchic theory, yet they still arrived to enough of the same conclusions to be considered at least Anarchy adjacent.

 

[Agema]

No Polls tend to come under social science and it's easy to bias them if you know what you're doing or just do them incompetently.

This is different from science how...?

The Polls for Trump vs Hillary weren't even in the margin for error allowing for a Trump win last time...

Johnson will only get a small majority government at best.

Remain will win the Brexit vote

You realise all the data is still up there on the internet for scrutiny, recorded for posterity, right? Why bother lying to us like that?

 

[dreng3]

This is different from science how...?



You realise all the data is still up there on the internet for scrutiny, recorded for posterity, right? Why bother lying to us like that?

Who're you gonna believe, Dwarf or your own lying eyes?
At this point so much of the debate has been reduced to certain parties constantly gaslighting and openly lying.

 

[Buyetyen]

Who're you gonna believe, Dwarf or your own lying eyes?
At this point so much of the debate has been reduced to certain parties constantly gaslighting and openly lying.

Can't lose if you never play by the rules.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

This is different from science how...?

Standards of proof.

A 30% response is considered enough to do a study with.

A 0.3 correlation is considered enough to deem something a significant finding worthy of note and further investigation though not conclusive proof.

So those polls could be based on just 30% who bothered to respond and ignore 70% of people who couldn't be bothered or just didn't get contacted etc.

You realise all the data is still up there on the internet for scrutiny, recorded for posterity, right? Why bother lying to us like that?

And I pointed out before in one area Clinton was 20+ points ahead......... are you trying to ignore that I did find the link in the end?

Again READ THE TIMELINE. They knew it could spread from person to person in the early reports.. Read the links provided in the timeline.
National Center for Medical Intelligence notified them of this in November. You know what the definition of a contagion is right?

14th of Jan


22nd of Jan

First known person-to-person transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) in the USA

Person-to-person transmission of SARS-CoV-2 occurred between two people with prolonged, unprotected exposure while Patient 1 was symptomatic. Despite active symptom monitoring and testing of symptomatic and some asymptomatic contacts, no further transmission was detected.

www.thelancet.com

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Who're you gonna believe, Dwarf or your own lying eyes?
At this point so much of the debate has been reduced to certain parties constantly gaslighting and openly lying.

Again at this point they weren't

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/

29% chance of Trump winning.


10% chance

Clinton has 90 percent chance of winning: Reuters/Ipsos States of the Nation

With hours to go before Americans vote, Democrat Hillary Clinton has about a 90 percent chance of defeating Republican Donald Trump in the race for the White House, according to the final Reuters/Ipsos States of the Nation project.

www.reuters.com

There's more.

Relying on Polling numbers is a fools game

 

[Trunkage]

1) It was in Wuhan a lot of the work or the areas round there.

2) It COULD have just been a localised source of the illness. It's China who knows maybe a poisoned lot of rice or some cult doing a series of attacks on people using some unknown virus.


At the time some scientists were definitely saying to be on alert and prepare and such but WHO and others were saying to wasn't a threat at the time (this was mostly due to them getting a lot of criticism for the perceived over reaction to Bird Flu which turned out to be extremely mild.

Here’s your problem:

WHO believed China too much. When they got new data, they change their advice. All true. They admitted to it

So what do we do? Say yeah, screwed up bro. But I understand and I hope we do better or:
Every single time WHO talks bringing up a mistake in January, invalidating anything they say.

Just to be clear, I’ve stopped calling Trump out on masks because he’s starting wearing them (at least sometimes. It’s still a big step for him). Like, you were complaining about WHO insisting on it not transmitting person to person in mid-Jan. the CCP only made it public on the 31st December. That’s like two or three weeks to get better information. That’s pretty quick

Like, when I call out Trump on his response, I don’t blame him for 200k. He couldn’t stop the virus coming in with the info in January. I’d say more like half of the deaths are on his hands, with one particular governor doing a really bad job at the start as well. But he could have got some preparation in January just in case something bad did happen. Like, PPE doesn’t expire and could have been stockpiled just in case

The idea that an ‘overreaction’ to the Bird Flu should justify Trump response (from let’s say April as I can understand him making mistakes for the first couple of months with poor information) is bad. Mainly because it’s better to be over prepared than under. Wasting a few million dollars of unneeded medicine is better than letting thousands die and having to shut down the economy. Like, my whole critique of Trump is: ‘what if the information is bad? Why don’t you do some extra preparations instead of less. Just in case.’ Because he did the opposite: ‘the info is bad. Let’s do less.’

 

[lil devils x]

Mhmm

What part of National Center for Medical Intelligence = WHO? It was US intelligence that informed Trump' admin of the CONTAGION in November. That is why I said READ THE TIMELINE. It is like you ignore it over and over and over again no matter how many times it is made perfectly clear no one is talking about WHO at all here.
What Is the definition of Contagion?
con·ta·gion
noun
the communication of disease from one person to another by close contact.

What does that definition say? What does the timeline say happened in November?


As far back as late November, U.S. intelligence officials were warning that a contagion was sweeping through China’s Wuhan region, changing the patterns of life and business and posing a threat to the population, according to four sources briefed on the secret reporting.

Concerns about what is now known to be the novel coronavirus pandemic were detailed in a November intelligence report by the military's National Center for Medical Intelligence (NCMI), according to two officials familiar with the document’s contents.

The report was the result of analysis of wire and computer intercepts, coupled with satellite images. It raised alarms because an out-of-control disease would pose a serious threat to U.S. forces in Asia -- forces that depend on the NCMI’s work. And it paints a picture of an American government that could have ramped up mitigation and containment efforts far earlier to prepare for a crisis poised to come home.

"Analysts concluded it could be a cataclysmic event," one of the sources said of the NCMI’s report. "It was then briefed multiple times to" the Defense Intelligence Agency, the Pentagon’s Joint Staff and the White House. Wednesday night, the Pentagon issued a statement denying the "product/assessment" existed.

"From that warning in November, the sources described repeated briefings through December for policy-makers and decision-makers across the federal government as well as the National Security Council at the White House. All of that culminated with a detailed explanation of the problem that appeared in the President’s Daily Brief of intelligence matters in early January, the sources said. For something to have appeared in the PDB, it would have had to go through weeks of vetting and analysis, according to people who have worked on presidential briefings in both Republican and Democratic administrations.

"The timeline of the intel side of this may be further back than we’re discussing," the source said of preliminary reports from Wuhan. "But this was definitely being briefed beginning at the end of November as something the military needed to take a posture on."
"

‘Blinking Red’: A Running Timeline of How the Trump Administration Ignored Warnings, Misled the Public, and Made the Coronavirus Crisis Worse

This interactive timeline presents the important details about what Trump and his administration have and haven’t done about the coronavirus pandemic—every ignored warning; every needless, wasteful fight; and every tragic misstep they try to spin into success.

www.americanprogress.org

It really isn't that hard. No one is talking about WHO, we are talking about US intelligence, who is supposed to be ahead of WHO in the first place. US intelligence informed them of a disease that could be spread from person to person back in November.

"It was then briefed multiple times to" the Defense Intelligence Agency, the Pentagon’s Joint Staff and the White House.

Trump just ignored it and claimed they didn't tell him, although they had proof they did. Trump just doesn't read anything and wants to talk about whatever else is on his mind instead. You're not doing much better when told to read the timeline in regards to US intelligence for November and then you post irrelevant nonsense about WHO.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Here’s your problem:

WHO believed China too much. When they got new data, they change their advice. All true. They admitted to it

So what do we do? Say yeah, screwed up bro. But I understand and I hope we do better or:
Every single time WHO talks bringing up a mistake in January, invalidating anything they say.

Just to be clear, I’ve stopped calling Trump out on masks because he’s starting wearing them (at least sometimes. It’s still a big step for him). Like, you were complaining about WHO insisting on it not transmitting person to person in mid-Jan. the CCP only made it public on the 31st December. That’s like two or three weeks to get better information. That’s pretty quick

Like, when I call out Trump on his response, I don’t blame him for 200k. He couldn’t stop the virus coming in with the info in January. I’d say more like half of the deaths are on his hands, with one particular governor doing a really bad job at the start as well. But he could have got some preparation in January just in case something bad did happen. Like, PPE doesn’t expire and could have been stockpiled just in case

The idea that an ‘overreaction’ to the Bird Flu should justify Trump response (from let’s say April as I can understand him making mistakes for the first couple of months with poor information) is bad. Mainly because it’s better to be over prepared than under. Wasting a few million dollars of unneeded medicine is better than letting thousands die and having to shut down the economy. Like, my whole critique of Trump is: ‘what if the information is bad? Why don’t you do some extra preparations instead of less. Just in case.’ Because he did the opposite: ‘the info is bad. Let’s do less.’

Yes it is that time to get better info the issue is other scientists in other regions were saying it was spreading already but were being ignored often by people in authority meant to be passing info on.

Some people were worried this would lead to over-reaction again like Avian Flu and as was being pointed out by others in this thread actions Trump et al wanted to take were being criticised and deemed not necessary based on the advice of WHO and others.

Trump may be president but he only has so much power over states etc.

Blame him and his administration for spending relief fund money on military stuff that's fair but the virus was always going to go global and unless you're a tiny Island nation who isn't a transport hub or stop over point for a lot of flights then you're one of the few who can really fight and control it fully.

Part of the other issue after info came out was issues over supplies of PPE. I know the UK had to send back multiple orders because they just weren't up to standard. Some places had PPE stock in rented storage........ IN CHINA who guess what, weren't too keen to give it back when they found out what the companies had been storing. There was for a while a PPE shortage essentially globally.

What part of National Center for Medical Intelligence = WHO? It was US intelligence that informed Trump' admin of the CONTAGION in November. That is why I said READ THE TIMELINE. It is like you ignore it over and over and over again no matter how many times it is made perfectly clear no one is talking about WHO at all here.
What Is the definition of Contagion?
con·ta·gion
noun
the communication of disease from one person to another by close contact.

What does that definition say? What does the timeline say happened in November?

And by informed about it it was likely that one person had come down sick and it was being investigated. I'm sure there's plenty of weird new things people fall ill with that we don't know about quite often.

To quote a lecturer I had who was a senior virologist.

If you want to name something name a virus or bacteria. It's easy, pick up an hand full of dirt and spend a few months looking, keep doing it for a few years and you'll find at least 1 if not more pathogen not yet named or researched by virologists because there's so much out there most of it unknown but it's the ones that make a number of people sick that get noticed.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

As far back as late November, U.S. intelligence officials were warning that a contagion was sweeping through China’s Wuhan region, changing the patterns of life and business and posing a threat to the population, according to four sources briefed on the secret reporting.

Concerns about what is now known to be the novel coronavirus pandemic were detailed in a November intelligence report by the military's National Center for Medical Intelligence (NCMI), according to two officials familiar with the document’s contents.

The report was the result of analysis of wire and computer intercepts, coupled with satellite images. It raised alarms because an out-of-control disease would pose a serious threat to U.S. forces in Asia -- forces that depend on the NCMI’s work. And it paints a picture of an American government that could have ramped up mitigation and containment efforts far earlier to prepare for a crisis poised to come home.

"Analysts concluded it could be a cataclysmic event," one of the sources said of the NCMI’s report. "It was then briefed multiple times to" the Defense Intelligence Agency, the Pentagon’s Joint Staff and the White House. Wednesday night, the Pentagon issued a statement denying the "product/assessment" existed.

Which unfortunately is also what was initially being said about Avian Flu early on. That it could be terrible. Yes Trump could have acted and arguably should but the reluctance to act was due mostly to what happened with Avian flu and likely and adviser or two bringing just that up.

"From that warning in November, the sources described repeated briefings through December for policy-makers and decision-makers across the federal government as well as the National Security Council at the White House. All of that culminated with a detailed explanation of the problem that appeared in the President’s Daily Brief of intelligence matters in early January, the sources said. For something to have appeared in the PDB, it would have had to go through weeks of vetting and analysis, according to people who have worked on presidential briefings in both Republican and Democratic administrations.

"The timeline of the intel side of this may be further back than we’re discussing," the source said of preliminary reports from Wuhan. "But this was definitely being briefed beginning at the end of November as something the military needed to take a posture on."
"

‘Blinking Red’: A Running Timeline of How the Trump Administration Ignored Warnings, Misled the Public, and Made the Coronavirus Crisis Worse

This interactive timeline presents the important details about what Trump and his administration have and haven’t done about the coronavirus pandemic—every ignored warning; every needless, wasteful fight; and every tragic misstep they try to spin into success.

www.americanprogress.org

It really isn't that hard. No one is talking about WHO, we are talking about US intelligence, who is supposed to be ahead of WHO in the first place. US intelligence informed them of a disease that could be spread from person to person back in November.

"It was then briefed multiple times to" the Defense Intelligence Agency, the Pentagon’s Joint Staff and the White House.

Trump just ignored it and claimed they didn't tell him, although they had proof they did. Trump just doesn't read anything and wants to talk about whatever else is on his mind instead. You're not doing much better when told to read the timeline in regards to US intelligence for November and then you post irrelevant nonsense about WHO.

US intelligence like WMD's in Iraq?

 

[Avnger]

US intelligence like WMD's in Iraq?

US intelligence actually said Saddam likely did not have WMDs. The Bush administration suppressed those reports and made their own "alternative facts" to act as justification instead. Funnily reminiscent of the Trump administration's actions regarding intelligence reports on Russia actually...

 

[lil devils x]

And by informed about it it was likely that one person had come down sick and it was being investigated. I'm sure there's plenty of weird new things people fall ill with that we don't know about quite often.

To quote a lecturer I had who was a senior virologist.

"changing the patterns of life and business and posing a threat to the population, according to four sources briefed on the secret reporting."
That Doesn't sound like one person. ~That was what they said was happening in Wuhan.
I am starting to wonder about your reading comprehension. One person being sick doesn't change patterns of life and business that is even being noticed on satellite images and "wire and computer intercepts ". That is much more than one person sick for that to be happening.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

US intelligence actually said Saddam likely did not have WMDs. The Bush administration suppressed those reports and made their own "alternative facts" to act as justification instead. Funnily reminiscent of the Trump administration's actions regarding intelligence reports on Russia actually...

Yet very little has really come out of the Russia think other than apparently day to day Russia being Russia.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

"changing the patterns of life and business and posing a threat to the population, according to four sources briefed on the secret reporting."
That Doesn't sound like one person. ~That was what they said was happening in Wuhan.
I am starting to wonder about your reading comprehension. One person being sick doesn't change patterns of life and business that is even being noticed on satellite images and "wire and computer intercepts ". That is much more than one person sick for that to be happening.

Again it could depend on a lot of factor there.

Changing patterns could just mean obviously people avoiding certain areas. Like say certain areas near certain wet markets etc which could well look pretty obvious given activity in said areas from footage etc shown.