The Perfect Apolitical/Politics Free Video.

BrawlMan

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It's kinda hard for an author to make something with a message and not be pushing it. An author makes a piece of art revolving around a message because they think it's important to tell and share with lots of people. How does one accomplish that without "pushing" the message? If you want people to experience your art with a message, you're pushing a message. Or else you'd write a book and burn it after reading it yourself. Or a graffiti artist would find a spot that no one sees.

Pretty much everyone knows a major component of propaganda is the use of misinformation (in some kinda form). Over half the words in that definition are dedicated to that very fact. And there's definitions for the word without the "may"s in it.
This. While there can be a thin line or murky area between art with a message and actual propaganda, they are not always one in the same. Propaganda usually relies on intentional misinformation and omission of truth and facts. You can have art with bad messages and unfortunate implications due to an unintentional slip ups and lack of research on the creators, writers, or whoever's part in the project. Or because of messed up values of said creators or them not giving a fuck about the quality of their work. Laziness is also another factor. Copying other and doing the job worse.

Look, if you want to discuss this with me, you're first going to have to prove to me that you understand what I'm saying, because this whole exchange has just been me correcting your misunderstandings over and over again.
Once again, you make the mistake and misuse words of their actual meaning or definition. And use the stupid of you want to discuss this with me phrase.

Is Sonic the Hedgehog environmentalist propaganda? How do we distinguish the two?
Test it by this criteria:
- Did you feel that the gameplay took a backseat to the message?
- Is the message "crammed in" so that it comes off as out of place or poorly written?
- Do you get a "both sides" look at things or are otherwise encouraged to think critically, or is there only "one right answer"?
No. Sonic has a pro-environmentalist message or green aesop. It works best and hand in hand in the classic games. Mainly Sonic's 1-3, and Sonic CD. With CD being the best of all four games in that regard, because it ties in with the gameplay. In Sonic games, there is always the beauty of nature and whatever Robotnik is involved destroys nature in planets, animals life cycles, and biosphere. His final levels, when not in space stations are polluted cities, factories, and industrial areas with heavy pollution.

Sonic CD embodies this with Little Planet. A planet that bends the laws of time and space making time travel trivial for some with a high intellect or who can go at a speed of Mach 1. Whenever Sonic travels in the past of each Zone, you see the stage in its primitive state before Robotnik interfered. Sonic goes in to the past to destroy the roboticizer from making a bad future, or by collecting the 7 time stones. The present version of each stage is mostly normal, but with robots and certain hazards laid out. If you fail to destroy the roboticizers or collect all the times, you get a bad future. The stages are littered with pollution, smog rust, and dried out water, depending on the stage your playing. Things are so bad that the music gets warped and bastardized and Robotnik's own creations are miserable. When succeeding and getting the good future, the stages are clean, angelic, and free of Robotnik's creations. Whatever machinery or technology is lying around is either helping nature or making things run properly without harming the planet. Showing machines and nature can work in harmony.

What's great about this message is that it's subtle and ties in with the gameplay. It does not villainize/demonize technology (in the good futures) and does not talk down to, nor insults its audience like most pro-environmentalist works. Especially from those of the 1990s. It respect the player and audience. Sonic rarely ever got preachy with its messages. Whenever it did, it mainly boiled down to stories not involving the games. Sometimes from the Archie brand comics they could go overboard depending on the writer. The games on the other hand; did not suffer from this.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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Of no, somebody pointed out that corporation exist solely to make money at all costs and that's maybe bad.
Where did she demand a Comic Code authority style restriction? I missed that. Maybe do a pull quote, because all I saw was this:
"“There’s no formula for building a ‘good’ female character. A female character that can only be described as ‘strong’ isn’t a good character, either. They should be honest, meaningful, multi-dimensional characters, not just placeholders for the sake of ‘diversity,’” she explained."
You know every time people pull that one.
They also ignore the examples of games pointed out with content that would end up restricted.
Can some-one tell me what was so egregious about those titles mentioned as examples of games with content she'd want?
The comics Code authority was in it's most basic form a Morality code, same with the Hays Code. Those were industry wide morality codes put into media.

Based on previous works by said person her ideas of what good female characters are, well it's a lot narrower than mine lol
 

TheMysteriousGX

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You know every time people pull that one.
They also ignore the examples of games pointed out with content that would end up restricted.
Can some-one tell me what was so egregious about those titles mentioned as examples of games with content she'd want?
The comics Code authority was in it's most basic form a Morality code, same with the Hays Code. Those were industry wide morality codes put into media.

Based on previous works by said person her ideas of what good female characters are, well it's a lot narrower than mine lol
Man, y'all really got to start reading your own sources.
Restricted by...what? So she wishes corporations were forced to be more moral. *I* wish corporations were forced to be more moral. Key example, gambling mechanics in $60 kids games.

What you've completely failed at proving at any point was her saying she wanted a hayes code. In you own source.
 

BrawlMan

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We are in agreement. Sonic the Hedgehog is not environmentalist propaganda. It is a good example of "game first, message second"
You clearly did not read that completely clearly. Propaganda no. Game with a good message that is art, yes. The game and message tie into each other. While the gameplay is important, neither supersede the other. Not to mention as much as I like Sonic CD, game play is weak (and not that good) compared to 2 & 3. Considering CD is basically Sonic 1.5, that makes sense. Also, this was one of the first Sonic games to really try delve in to a slower paced exploration, and it does average enough, but better Sonic games were able to tackle that better. But I am getting off topic. I am of the camp that games are art. Art as always is subjective, but CD handled doing what it did well for the most part. It's important to care and treat our environment and nature with care and respect. That is the truth. There is no lying or intentional misinformation. A piece of art with a positive message.
 

Houseman

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You clearly did not read that completely clearly. Propaganda no. Game with a good message that is art, yes.
I didn't say that a "game with a good message" is propaganda. I said "art to push a message". This is now the fourth time I've had to repeat that.

How is it that multiple people here are confusing the words "with" and "to"? Do I need to break out a dictionary?

in possession of : HAVING
used as a function word to indicate purpose, intention, tendency, result, or end
 

Dwarvenhobble

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It's kinda hard for an author to make something with a message and not be pushing it. An author makes a piece of art revolving around a message because they think it's important to tell and share with lots of people. How does one accomplish that without "pushing" the message? If you want people to experience your art with a message, you're pushing a message. Or else you'd write a book and burn it after reading it yourself. Or a graffiti artist would find a spot that no one sees.

Pretty much everyone knows a major component of propaganda is the use of misinformation (in some kinda form). Over half the words in that definition are dedicated to that very fact. And there's definitions for the word without the "may"s in it.
Well generally you use allegory to do messages well and distil things down to the core of the issue.

You create a situation where people aren't weighed down by normal prejudices.

E.g.


The difference between a message and closer to propaganda can be pointed out by looking at one creator who basically drew the line. The playwright Bertolt Brecht only instead of writing something good and then employing techniques to alienate the audience you just write something the audience mostly can't get into and the only piece they bother putting effort into is the message parts
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Man, y'all really got to start reading your own sources.
Restricted by...what? So she wishes corporations were forced to be more moral. *I* wish corporations were forced to be more moral. Key example, gambling mechanics in $60 kids games.

What you've completely failed at proving at any point was her saying she wanted a hayes code. In you own source.

She then dove into a multitude of examples of games or movies wherein female characters are used only as devices to show how depraved a male character is, citing specifically Assassin’s Creed: Brotherhood and the Grand Theft Auto series.
Because clearly that was her objecting to the companies acting in an immoral way not content she found immoral in the games lol Sarcasm if you couldn't tell because she was quite clearly objecting to content in games

Yeh no she really isn't objecting to lootboxes or gambling mechanics but story, world or lore related content.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Because clearly that was her objecting to the companies acting in an immoral way not content she found immoral in the games lol Sarcasm if you couldn't tell because she was quite clearly objecting to content in games

Yeh no she really isn't objecting to lootboxes or gambling mechanics but story, world or lore related content.
God forbid somebody not like something about a video game regarding story, world, or lore related content.

Unless it's too woke, in which case go nuts

The absolute hilarious thing about this argument is that her statement regarding how to properly create a diverse character could've easily been lifted from you or Houseman or any one of the anti-woke people on this forum, but because Anita Sarkeesian said it she still has to be wrong
 

BrawlMan

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I didn't say that a "game with a good message" is propaganda.
I did not accuse you of thatm nor imply it. But just because something lacks propaganda does not mean it can't have politics in the subject. I am not accusing of that either, but I wanted to throw that out their

I said "art to push a message"
Okay then.

How is it that multiple people here are confusing the words "with" and "to"? Do I need to break out a dictionary?
No on the dictionary and no need for the attitude. If you're bad mood, my apologies, but I want to keep this place civil.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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God forbid somebody not like something about a video game regarding story, world, or lore related content.
Yet she wanted inudstry wide moral standard to restrict said content lol

Unless it's too woke, in which case go nuts
I've never said don't make woke stuff. I've said it will fail, if you only focus on it then it will damage the industry and many such properties fail because I and apparently enough others have no interest in it.

You want to make the most woke show ever? Do it just know the kind of audience you will get, the size of it and don't get mad because you expected some massive audience to show up and stay because you put on the superficial trappings of something they normally engage with.

It's not the fault of "Gamers" that the game about being a house cleaner in a country on the verge of civil war didn't succeed.

fuck gamers.jpg

They made most of their game with arts council funding grants and then they made one without such a grant acting as a safety net and they had to compete and failed.

Based on people who played it the game was pretty boring and basic at best

 

BrawlMan

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The absolute hilarious thing about this argument is that her statement regarding how to properly create a diverse character could've easily been lifted from you or Houseman or any one of the anti-woke people on this forum, but because Anita Sarkeesian said it she still has to be wrong
I never liked Sarkeesian (the death and rape threats aimed at here were highly disgusting and unnecessary.), but whatever points she did have would be under minded byinsulting others or shooting her arguments in the foot. She's also a schemer that admits she does not like playing video games at one major point. Why Sarkeesian stuck around for that long is beyond me. Real answer is money, but she there were plenty of times her arguements went in to huge leaps in logic or she did not back her evidence. It's why I never tuned in to her videos. Hell, around 2016-2017, even most of her follows dropped like a hot potato. Most young people don't even know she exist at this point.
 
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Houseman

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But hey you had moments too on this thread and the gaming journalist thread.
Take a screenshot of one of my posts with a warning on them, then, or else this is just another baseless accusation.
No, really, if I've gotten a warning, please take a screenshot and show me, because maybe the notifications still aren't working properly, and I'd want to know.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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The absolute hilarious thing about this argument is that her statement regarding how to properly create a diverse character could've easily been lifted from you or Houseman or any one of the anti-woke people on this forum, but because Anita Sarkeesian said it she still has to be wrong
Actually it couldn't because I have no issue with femininity or much of what Anita considers negative traits in female characters lol

 

BrawlMan

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Take a screenshot of one of my posts with a warning on them, then, or else this is just another baseless accusation.
No, really, if I've gotten a warning, please take a screenshot and show me, because maybe the notifications still aren't working properly, and I'd want to know.
You did not get warning, but you know what you did. Don't need to and I do not care.
 

Houseman

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You did not get warning
So, therefore, as decided by our impartial mod-observers, you're the only one that ever broke civility, and you have no evidence to support your claim that I ever did.
 

BrawlMan

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So, therefore, as decided by our impartial mod-observers, you're the only one that ever broke civility, and you have no evidence to support your claim that I ever did.
We've done this back forth dance already, it's old. Either get back in topic or don't bother saying anything else. Whatever makes you sleep in your bed at night. Because I don't give a shit.
 
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