New Call of Duty game let's players be Non-binary

[Ezekiel]

What's the community longevity of Call of Duty games like these days? Does last year's game become a ghost town after the new one comes out? I only ever played 4 substantially online.

 

[Houseman]

So, do you not think it's weird that I, as a person who prefers they/them pronouns, am literally telling you not to worry so much about pronouns, and your response is that cis people only worry about pronouns because people like me make "demands".

Well, what should we be doing?
"This person insisted that I use the pronouns "xe/xir" and was very upset when I didn't, so I make certain to ask for everyone's pronouns!"
"This person finds it offensive to even be asked for their pronouns?"

You and others are making contradictory demands that makes it a minefield for anyone to traverse. Nobody can keep this straight.
Have some empathy. Sure, you know what you want, and you have your demands. But everybody else has different demands. How do you reasonably expect anyone to keep it all straight?

Maybe having personalized demands is just a bad thing to do for anyone.

 

[Terminal Blue]

"This person insisted that I use the pronouns "xe/xir" and was very upset when I didn't, so I make certain to ask for everyone's pronouns!"

Does that follow?

Again, there seems to be an obvious solution here. If someone tells you what pronouns they prefer to be addressed by, just use those pronouns. If you forget and get it wrong, apologise and correct yourself. Does that really translate into you needing to go around asking everyone's pronouns? Is that something you're doing to make that person feel affirmed, or is it something you're doing to avoid what you see as a potential embarrassment of having someone correct you?

Again. I don't get why cis people pretend this is difficult, or that non-binary people are somehow making unreasonable demands on them. Just do what you normally do, and occasionally someone will correct you. Stop interpreting people correcting you as an attack, or a slight on your cisgender honour, or as them getting "hysterical". Because if you actually care about being trans inclusive, if you actually care about making sure non-binary people feel comfortable around you, then your efforts should not be conditional on them going out of their way to make it as easy for you as possible.

There's a quote by Leslie Feinberg, who wrote about and used gender neutral pronouns long before the concept of being non-binary had entered public discussion, and which I think sums up my feelings on this pretty well.

I care which pronoun is used, but people have been respectful to me with the wrong pronoun and disrespectful with the right one. It matters whether someone is using the pronoun as a bigot, or if they are trying to demonstrate respect

Just be a good person to the best of your ability. Don't deliberately misgender someone. Apologise and correct yourself if you accidentally do misgender someone. It's not about whether you can beat the high score in the game of trans allyship or assert woke dominance over other cis people, it's about treating with respect people who aren't normally considered deserving of respect.

"This person finds it offensive to even be asked for their pronouns?"

I don't think I've actually said that. What I've said is that having strangers come up to you and ask for your pronouns, or having a group of cis people unilaterally decide that you're all going to disclose your pronouns, doesn't register to me personally as inclusive. Again, the key question is whether what you're doing actually comes across as respectful, or whether you're just using it to cover the fact you don't know how to treat trans and non-binary people like human beings.

You and others are making contradictory demands that makes it a minefield for anyone to traverse. Nobody can keep this straight.

A minefield? Really?

So in this metaphor, what are the mines? Are your legs going to fly off if someone corrects you on their pronouns?

 

[Terminal Blue]

What's normally thought about Person B is that they are impolite and they are usually looked down on. Society is full of titles, honoraries, and the like that people desire to be addressed as. Trans people are asking for nothing more than what anyone asks of anyone else. "Call me by this name" "It's Miss, Not Mrs." "It's Doctor ____, please"

I mean, that's kind of what I'm saying. Of course, if we want to get the metaphor accurate in this case, it would be more likely to go something like this:

Person A: "Hi, I'm Richard Kopf. I'm here for my appointment"
Person B: "Good to meet you Dick, we're running a little behind."
Person A: "Thanks. Oh, by the way, it's Richard."
Person B: "OH MY GOD.ARE YOU SAYING THAT I AM A BIGOT? ARE YOU ATTACKING MY GOOD CHARACTER? I SWEAR THERE IS NO PLEASING YOU PEOPLE! THERE IS LITERALLY NOTHING I COULD DO THAT WOULD EVER BE GOOD ENOUGH! I NEED YOU TO APPRECIATE HOW DIFFICULT THIS IS FOR ME! YOU'VE PUT ME IN AN IMPOSSIBLE SITUATION BY BEING SO HYSTERICAL, DICK. NOW I HAVE TO GO AROUND ASKING EVERYONE I MEET WHETHER I'M ALLOWED TO REFER TO THEM BY THEIR NAME, BECAUSE THIS IS THE POSITION YOU'VE PUT ME IN. THIS IS WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY TODAY. YOU'RE ALL SNOWFLAKES WHO GET OFFENDED BY EVERYTHING. YOU WOULDN'T HAVE LASTED LONG IN WORLD WAR 2, LET ME TELL YOU THAT!"

 

[Houseman]

Does that follow?

Yes. Because humans like to make things easier for themselves. They like a consistent set of rules to follow. Having different rules for different people is tiring. If every time you meet someone, you have to ask "Should I ask for this person's pronouns or shouldn't I? Would they be offended by it or would they be offended if I don't ask?", then they'd rather just avoid you.

Because that's how every other culture work. A set of rules are established and people follow them.

I'm just asking you to have some empathy, because you belong to a group that has a bunch of rules that vary by the individual, and are therefore hard to follow.

Again, there seems to be an obvious solution here. If someone tells you what pronouns they refer to be addressed by, just use those pronouns. If you forget and get it wrong, apologise and correct yourself.

That has nothing to do with what you were complaining about before, where cis people make everyone put their pronouns on a nametag or ask you for yours. That's what you objected to. You think it's for our benefit, but really, it's for yours, because we have no idea what you may or may not be offended about.

Yes or no: Do you recognize that not everyone has the same demands as you do? If the answer is yes, then have a little empathy.

Some people feel offended when others assume. Some people feel offended when others ask. You (plural) have put us in a position where it's impossible to avoid pleasing everybody.

Consider this scenario: You're planning an event and a trans person in the room suggests that everyone should have their pronouns on their nametags, because it makes him feel more comfortable. It makes you feel uncomfortable. Do you object and prioritize your comfort over theirs, or do you let them be more comfortable at the expense of yours?

 

[Houseman]

I hit some sort of mystery limit and had to break my post up.

I don't think I've actually said that. What I've said is that having strangers come up to you and ask for your pronouns, or having a group of cis people unilaterally decide that you're all going to disclose your pronouns, doesn't register to me personally as inclusive

What you said was:
"Having a cis person I don't know ask what my pronouns are is just one step off, for me, from people coming up and asking things like "what are you?""
And when asked a direct question about whether you like it or not, you answered with:
"Do you like people you don't know coming up and asking you to volunteer highly personal information about yourself?"

So that, to me, sounds like you don't like it because it makes you feel uncomfortable. Meanwhile you're over here shaming cis people for trying to lessen their degree of uncomfort when being corrected...

So in this metaphor, what are the mines? Are your legs going to fly off if someone corrects you on their pronouns?

Metaphorically, yes. One could potentially lose their job and possibly even future jobs depending on the complainant's story, especially if one refuses to use some made-up words like "xe/xir".

 

[CriticalGaming]

So, do you not think it's weird that I, as a person who prefers they/them pronouns, am literally telling you not to worry so much about pronouns, and your response is that cis people only worry about pronouns because people like me make "demands".

Let me tell you my demands. If I care about you enough to tell you that I prefer they/them pronouns, then I consider it a gesture of respect if you use those pronouns. Plenty of people in my life to whom I am out forget my pronouns all the time, especially if they knew me before. Heck, I have other non-binary friends who occasionally slip on my pronouns. I don't care all that much about pronouns, in my experience very few non-binary people do. What I care about is that people I like or who claim to be on my side treat my preferences with respect and courtesy.

Because my experience is that "normal" cis people care too much about pronouns, firstly because cis people care too much about gender (they literally burn down forests over it), and secondly because pronouns are an extremely easy way to look like you're trans inclusive without actually having to do anything. What normal cis people don't worry about is that they themselves will be misgendered, which doesn't mean they are in any way happy when it happens to them.



It's really not.

If you're trans, or non-binary, this is not weird or difficult at all. It's difficult for cis people because cis people are weird. Cis people are the ones whose brains break down if someone wears gender inappropriate clothing or has a gender neutral name. Cis people are the ones who literally become violent because the existence of trans or gender non-conforming people represents such an existential threat to their gender identities they have to physically attack or kill someone.

If you think it's weird, then you're weird, and you should probably learn how to step out of your comfort zone. But that's the big problem here. Cis people very rarely, if ever, step out of their comfort zone.



So, I'm mostly ignoring this because it's not relevant. I'm not actually talking about fictional characters, but rather I was making a throwaway point about how some people's attempts to be gender inclusive in real life can come across as self-serving and performative. I still don't really see why that's controversial or why it hit the nerve that it did, but I'm willing to ride this one and see where it goes.

But yes, I agree, Han Solo is relatable because of the situation his character is in and the actions his character takes, but that's not actually exclusive with the fact that much of his characterization is predicated on the fact that he's a man. It's not that you couldn't have a gender swapped Han Solo, but they would either have to be written differently or they would come across as a bit weird and maybe even gender non-conforming. People have different perspectives and expectations of male and female characters, particularly in a film like Star Wars where characters are written to be very archetypal, and who are also extremely gendered.

Imagine if Han Solo was still a male character, but was played by Anthony Daniels with the same camp delivery and mannerisms as C3P0. It wouldn't change the fact that he's a roguish character who is caught up in events way bigger than he wanted to get involved in, but would audiences have related to him in the same way? Almost certainly not.



They're lumped together because historically they were medically considered to be the same thing, and have always faced the same kind of persecution which necessitated banding together. A lot of trans people won't date straight people, for example, because, to paraphrase Kat Blaque, it can be exhausting having to manage someone else's heterosexuality. It can also be very dangerous.

Prejudice against LGB people and trans and non-binary people ultimately stems from the same source, the inability of "normal" (cisgender, heterosexual) people to tolerate anything that breaks their "rules" of gendered behaviour.

And those communities are not as small as you think, particularly now. Do you think that humans are just naturally heterosexual?



Do you think that gender is real?

Do you think that there's some kind of absolute, immutable cognitive or social reality that makes a person either male or female? Do you think there's such a thing as a male or female mind, and that having a male or female mind means that you either are male or female? Do you think that all psychological experiences can be classified into these two oppositional states of being either male or female, with nothing outside or in between?

Because if so, I think you are the one who is confused. I know what gender is. I know gender is an arbitrary mode of social organization. I know that social organization can shape our identities and sense of self, and I know that my identity and sense of self does not align cleanly with what is socially classified as male or female.

But even if I did believe that gender is real, it doesn't change the fact that I know what I am not, and therefore I also know what I am by ruling out what I am not. There's really no "confusion" in that, unless you're alleging that not feeling like your sense of self aligns with your body or social position is inherently a sign of confusion, which would also apply to binary trans people.

I actually agree with most of what you said here. I cant relate to your experience with pronouns or your preferences for them because i dont know you and im not you.

I will say that my standpoint on that comes from the (for lack of a better term) extremists of the lbgtq task force. The leople you see online screaming at Jordan Peterson or Tucker Carlson.

As for your last question, do i think gender is real?

Yes. But not tied to any one thing the way you think.

I dont think there is a spectrum and let me be as respectful as possible in what im about to say, i think we have some very frustrated and confused 16-30 year olds who are having a hard time finding their place in this world and seeing the attention this recent gender-fluidity pro noun policing movement (especially on collage campus) because it not only gives them a cause, but it also gives them a feeling of being unique and forces people to treat them specially.

Gender on a whole i think does lean binarilly into either male behaviors or female behaviors. I do not think there is anything inbetween. While i dont believe that men and women have different brains, i do believe that due to hormonal desires there are ndifferent manifestations of behavior.

Society itself only labels them as female and male tendencies because that's the only real labels we have on them but they are only tied to either side of the male/female due to that societal labeling. It is human nature to label things.

What i do not think is a legit thing is being able to freely decide on a whim, "im a boy today, or im a girl today, or im nothing today." Because you are obviously something, gender is linked to your biological sex and any attempt to deny or insist you are something different is an exercise in the imaginary.

Now the likely case i think in people who are so sold on this fuildity and spectrum mindset is likely tied to some sort of mental condition like ADHD or OCD, or perhaps some placement on the Austism spectrum (which is a real spectrum). Ive seen many trans and non binary folks also claim to have OCD or ADHD in particular and Laura Kate Dale herself calls herself trans and autistic. So perhaps there is some validity in these mindsets also being linked to these disorders. I dunno im not a doctor but it makes sense.

Im not trying to belittle or invalidate either. If you feel that way genuinely then godspeed and ill do my best not to make you feel like and outcast, but i also will probably never believe that by willing 1000 genders into existence will ever be something that has any real basis. I believe it nothing more than pseudoscience

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Gender on a whole i think does lean binarilly into either male behaviors or female behaviors. I do not think there is anything inbetween. While i dont believe that men and women have different brains, i do believe that due to hormonal desires there are ndifferent manifestations of behavior.

Society itself only labels them as female and male tendencies because that's the only real labels we have on them but they are only tied to either side of the male/female due to that societal labeling. It is human nature to label things.

If the only difference between male and female behaviors and tendencies is "societal labeling", then that's just a fancy way of saying it's made up bullshit.

 

[Thaluikhain]

What i do not think is a legit thing is being able to freely decide on a whim, "im a boy today, or im a girl today, or im nothing today."

Er...who is saying that, beyond hilarious reactionary types?

Because you are obviously something, gender is linked to your biological sex

Er...

Now the likely case i think in people who are so sold on this fuildity and spectrum mindset is likely tied to some sort of mental condition like ADHD or OCD, or perhaps some placement on the Austism spectrum (which is a real spectrum). Ive seen many trans and non binary folks also claim to have OCD or ADHD in particular and Laura Kate Dale herself calls herself trans and autistic. So perhaps there is some validity in these mindsets also being linked to these disorders. I dunno im not a doctor but it makes sense.

If you're saying that some people are wired differently to "the norm", then, well, yes. If you are saying that gender fluidity is connected to autism, yeah, no. Many trans people may well be autistic, but as many cis people are, that's not very surprising.

 

[Trunkage]

Im not trying to belittle or invalidate either. If you feel that way genuinely then godspeed and ill do my best not to make you feel like and outcast, but i also will probably never believe that by willing 1000 genders into existence will ever be something that has any real basis. I believe it nothing more than pseudoscience

Not invalidate? But pseudoscience?

 

[Houseman]

Not invalidate? But pseudoscience?

I didn't say that

 

[Trunkage]

Er...who is saying that, beyond hilarious reactionary

There are people who swap genders based on the feelings that day. And by ‘swapping gender’ I mean just wearing traditionally girl outfits one day and boys another. Maybe acting ‘traditionally womanly’ one day and not another eg. modes of speech

You know, all that stuff that has nothing to do with penises and vaginas. Or even Chromosomes.

 

[Trunkage]

I didn't say that

That seems to be a error in the quotes. Critical said that but it attached you instead. Sorry

 

[deleted20220709]

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[Hawki]

There are people who swap genders based on the feelings that day. And by ‘swapping gender’ I mean just wearing traditionally girl outfits one day and boys another. Maybe acting ‘traditionally womanly’ one day and not another eg. modes of speech

You know, all that stuff that has nothing to do with penises and vaginas. Or even Chromosomes.

None of that is swapping genders.

Girls partake in stuff intended for boys and vice versa all the time. None of that involves, or at least requires, gender flipping.

For an easy example of how social organization shapes our identities and sense of self, answer the following questions:
1. What is your nationality?
2. Are you proud of living in that nation?
3. What makes people of your nation special?

1: Australian
2: I'm neither proud nor ashamed, because it's a ridiculous question - there's nearly 200 nations in that world, there's nothing inherent in a quirk of geography
3: Nothing - we're all individuals

Being honest, I know this wasn't meant for me, but I roll my eyes every time someone says "I'm proud to be (nationality)." It's utterly ridiculous. Yes, I'm not immune to being more attached to some countries than others, but I can at least try and keep myself separate from the rah-rah. If you're being proud, it should be pride reserved for actual achievements, not something as arbitary as nationality, or any number of things that are inherent, or easily obtained.

 

[Elijin]

We live in a reality where the cis man is demanding empathy from the non binary because they might offend someone.

 

[ObsidianJones]

I mean, that's kind of what I'm saying. Of course, if we want to get the metaphor accurate in this case, it would be more likely to go something like this:

Person A: "Hi, I'm Richard Kopf. I'm here for my appointment"
Person B: "Good to meet you Dick, we're running a little behind."
Person A: "Thanks. Oh, by the way, it's Richard."
Person B: "OH MY GOD.ARE YOU SAYING THAT I AM A BIGOT? ARE YOU ATTACKING MY GOOD CHARACTER? I SWEAR THERE IS NO PLEASING YOU PEOPLE! THERE IS LITERALLY NOTHING I COULD DO THAT WOULD EVER BE GOOD ENOUGH! I NEED YOU TO APPRECIATE HOW DIFFICULT THIS IS FOR ME! YOU'VE PUT ME IN AN IMPOSSIBLE SITUATION BY BEING SO HYSTERICAL, DICK. NOW I HAVE TO GO AROUND ASKING EVERYONE I MEET WHETHER I'M ALLOWED TO REFER TO THEM BY THEIR NAME, BECAUSE THIS IS THE POSITION YOU'VE PUT ME IN. THIS IS WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY TODAY. YOU'RE ALL SNOWFLAKES WHO GET OFFENDED BY EVERYTHING. YOU WOULDN'T HAVE LASTED LONG IN WORLD WAR 2, LET ME TELL YOU THAT!"

"Yeah, ok, Dick" is shorthand for all of that.

I chose expediency

 

[CriticalGaming]

APA PsycNet

psycnet.apa.org

The Connection Between Autism & Gender Dysphoria? ASD | ABA

Since the mid-1990s, researchers had puzzled over a series of case reports made on individuals who had been diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) also showing classic traits of gender dysphoria… the condition of having a psychological identity with a gender other than the one they were...

www.appliedbehavioranalysisedu.org

Study strengthens autism’s curious link to gender variance

Traits associated with autism and gender variance may co-occur even among typical children — a finding that may ease some of the skepticism about the overlap.

www.spectrumnews.org

https://www.jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567(17)31682-9/fulltext

I did some digging and while there isn't anything conclusive in regards to the connections between autism and gender dismorphia, it seems that the science and medical world DO think that there is a link. But more research needs to be done, and this will be to the benefit of everyone because understanding the causes and understanding the links to what triggers mental disorders can only serve to help people get better care and treatment for it.

And let's be truthful with each other for a moment. Transgenderism or gender dismorphia IS a mental condition. There is nothing wrong with the body, the desire to be the other gender as to what the body developed into (you aren't assigned a gender, medically they assign sex and sex and gender is an interchangeable term in the medical field) is strictly contained within the mind.

I'd love to see actual real research be done here, because I think a lot can be done to help the transgender community on the whole (because the suicide rate is staggering) live happier lives. If science can figure out what the brain chemistry is doing, then they can treat it with the correct medications that can help fight back against the other mental conditions that seem to cling into the community as well and make everyone happier.

Meanwhile, if it makes some people happy to see an option in a video game to pick a non-gender for their character. Then put it in. It's not a big deal, thus the whole point of this thread that exploded for literally no reason.

 

[BrawlMan]

APA PsycNet

psycnet.apa.org

The Connection Between Autism & Gender Dysphoria? ASD | ABA

Since the mid-1990s, researchers had puzzled over a series of case reports made on individuals who had been diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) also showing classic traits of gender dysphoria… the condition of having a psychological identity with a gender other than the one they were...

www.appliedbehavioranalysisedu.org

Study strengthens autism’s curious link to gender variance

Traits associated with autism and gender variance may co-occur even among typical children — a finding that may ease some of the skepticism about the overlap.

www.spectrumnews.org

https://www.jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567(17)31682-9/fulltext

I did some digging and while there isn't anything conclusive in regards to the connections between autism and gender dismorphia, it seems that the science and medical world DO think that there is a link. But more research needs to be done, and this will be to the benefit of everyone because understanding the causes and understanding the links to what triggers mental disorders can only serve to help people get better care and treatment for it.

And let's be truthful with each other for a moment. Transgenderism or gender dismorphia IS a mental condition. There is nothing wrong with the body, the desire to be the other gender as to what the body developed into (you aren't assigned a gender, medically they assign sex and sex and gender is an interchangeable term in the medical field) is strictly contained within the mind.

I'd love to see actual real research be done here, because I think a lot can be done to help the transgender community on the whole (because the suicide rate is staggering) live happier lives. If science can figure out what the brain chemistry is doing, then they can treat it with the correct medications that can help fight back against the other mental conditions that seem to cling into the community as well and make everyone happier.

Meanwhile, if it makes some people happy to see an option in a video game to pick a non-gender for their character. Then put it in. It's not a big deal, thus the whole point of this thread that exploded for literally no reason.

I appreciate the heartwarming research and message. Of course you do realize there are some people in this forum that are scared of such things, and hide behind their assholism and cowardice. They will most likely not learn anything from any of this and go back to doing the same thing they always do. Being whiny shit heads.

 

[deleted20220709]

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