Real Talk: How Xenoblade & Monolithsoft Saved the JRPG! - YoVideogames

[Dreiko]

I'm providing reasons for why JRPGs aren't as popular as other genres because apparently they had to be saved and were saved or whatever. There's quite a few genre conventions that quite a lot of people don't like including random battles and grinding. Aiddon said the genre is about storytelling yet those 2 things literally keep you from the story. If the game isn't entertaining to play, why should anyone play it when you can just watch the story on Youtube? Gameplay has to grow and evolve as doing the same thing over and over again always has diminishing returns. This video perfectly encapsulates why the Divinity series has done so much better than the Pillars series; Pillars only tried to recreate Baldur's Gate while Divinity improved upon it. The JRPG genre intentionally stays the same a lot of the time.


Anime is not a medium (just look up the definition of anime or medium). Anime has all the genres of anything else. Ghost in the Shell is sci-fi for example. Excel Saga is a parody. We have several other things that go straight to DVD/Blu-ray from DC animated movies to Stephen Seagal movies. We have shows that release on a website like Dr. Horrible or Reb vs Blue. There's plenty of comics that aren't superhero comics. I could probably say the typical Japanese comic is shonen (I could be wrong but it seems pretty damn popular). How is shonen literally only a genre that anime does? How is Kamen Rider or Power Rangers not a shonen? How is Teen Titans or Ninja Turtles not a shonen?

The fact that anime has genres, means that anime isn't a genre. Simple.

A movie that goes straight to dvd is a movie, an episodic series that goes on dvd, however, is not a tv show. It's a dvd series.


Kamen Rider and Sentai are their own unique genre called "tokusatsu", it's not even animated so it has nothing to do with anime. Not shonen. Ninja Turtles is a kodomo show, not sure what teen titans (the original, the new thing is definitely kodomo) would fit in, could go either way.

Only in the west does it seem that the typical manga is shonen. There's thousands of different manga out there, not just the 5 or so popular ones lol.


In the west it's just easier to market shonen shows cause you have a basis to go off of so they can say "you like dragonball, well, you'll like naruto!" or "you like rurouni kenshin, well, you'll like kimetsu no yaiba!" and go from there.


If I had to pick one genre that's the most popular, it'd be slice of life, since those shows you can do with a low budget and they can go in a ton of different directions so it's an easy enough thing to do.

 

[Chimpzy]

The fact that anime has genres, means that anime isn't a genre. Simple.

I agree anime is not a genre per se, but it is in my opinion also not really a separate medium. I like to think of anime as being a subset of animation. Similar to how for example American comics, Japanese manga or Franco-Belgian bande dessinée are adaptations of the greater medium of comics originating in certain countries with each having developed their own tropes and idiosyncrasies reflecting the cultural preferences of those countries, so is anime the Japanese take on the medium of animation. Not really sure what to call that tho, I guess "regional variant/style" is pretty accurate, but doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.

That's from a western perspective tho. From the point of view of the average Japanese, all animation is anime, regardless of origin.

 

[BrawlMan]

Also, considering The Road's protagonist just so happens to be pushing a cart around much like how Ogami pushes a baby carriage in Lone Wolf and Cub, yeah, I'm calling bs on McCarthy not taking inspiration from at least the famous film adaptations of the manga. Lone Wolf and Cub is pretty much the ur-example regardless of the proto-examples that might have existed before it.

Annnndddd checkmate @fOx. This has been fun, but we've gotten way off topic.

 

[SupahEwok]

Also, considering The Road's protagonist just so happens to be pushing a cart around much like how Ogami pushes a baby carriage in Lone Wolf and Cub, yeah, I'm calling bs on McCarthy not taking inspiration from at least the famous film adaptations of the manga. Lone Wolf and Cub is pretty much the ur-example regardless of the proto-examples that might have existed before it.

You think Cormac McCarthy watches samurai movies? That's definitely a take that none of the established scholarship of his work has considered, probably because it is, as you say, bullshit.

Stick to comparisons between Lone Wolf and Cub and the Mandalorian.

 

[Aiddon]

You think Cormac McCarthy watches samurai movies?

I very much doubt McCarthy is so snobbish of a person that he can't enjoy samurai films. Even if he didn't take direct inspiration, The Road is clearly descended from Ogami Itto's journey with his son much in he same way lone, mysterious wanderers are descended from Sanjuro. And here's a dirty little secret about most Western canon: a lot of it is comprised of the equivalent of big, splashy movies or was inspired by them. The Classics alone were basically the Greek bards doing blockbusters about stuff like the Trojan Wars but putting in the gods because that makes it more fun. Heck, The Odyssey is basically a slapstick comedy sequel to The Illiad.

Also funny to bring up McCarthy in this thread because one of his key influences in his writings is Gnosticism. Another guy who based his work on that: Tetsuya Takahashi. The creator of Xenoblade.

 

[SupahEwok]

I very much doubt McCarthy is so snobbish of a person that he can't enjoy samurai films. Even if he didn't take direct inspiration, The Road is clearly descended from Ogami Itto's journey with his son much in he same way lone, mysterious wanderers are descended from Sanjuro. And here's a dirty little secret about most Western canon: a lot of it is comprised of the equivalent of big, splashy movies or was inspired by them. The Classics alone were basically the Greek bards doing blockbusters about stuff like the Trojan Wars but putting in the gods because that makes it more fun. Heck, The Odyssey is basically a slapstick comedy sequel to The Illiad.

Also funny to bring up McCarthy in this thread because one of his key influences in his writings is Gnosticism. Another guy who based his work on that: Tetsuya Takahashi. The creator of Xenoblade.

I don't know why you're so bent on saying some old guy who has never shown a shred of Eastern influence in his writing (nor has his myriad academic scholars tried to make such a connection) ripped off a samurai movie. Especially when Lone Wolf and Cub is clearly a ripoff of Huckleberry Finn. After all, there's a raft. That must be the inspiration for a baby carriage.

Edit: @BrawlMan where's my "checkmate"?

 

[Phoenixmgs]

The fact that anime has genres, means that anime isn't a genre. Simple.

A movie that goes straight to dvd is a movie, an episodic series that goes on dvd, however, is not a tv show. It's a dvd series.

Kamen Rider and Sentai are their own unique genre called "tokusatsu", it's not even animated so it has nothing to do with anime. Not shonen. Ninja Turtles is a kodomo show, not sure what teen titans (the original, the new thing is definitely kodomo) would fit in, could go either way.

Only in the west does it seem that the typical manga is shonen. There's thousands of different manga out there, not just the 5 or so popular ones lol.

In the west it's just easier to market shonen shows cause you have a basis to go off of so they can say "you like dragonball, well, you'll like naruto!" or "you like rurouni kenshin, well, you'll like kimetsu no yaiba!" and go from there.

If I had to pick one genre that's the most popular, it'd be slice of life, since those shows you can do with a low budget and they can go in a ton of different directions so it's an easy enough thing to do.

What does anime has genres even matter? So does any other style of animation too. I never said anime was a genre because it's not.

How are Kamen Rider, Power Rangers, Teen Titans, and Ninja Turtles not shonen based on the definition of shonen? The Mighty Ducks literally fits the definition.
Shonen manga is typically characterized by high-action, often humorous plots featuring male protagonists. Commonly-found themes in shonen manga include martial arts, robots, science fiction, sports, horror or mythological creatures. The camaraderie between boys or men on sports teams, fighting squads, and the like are often emphasized. Protagonists of such manga often feature an ongoing desire to better themselves, and often face challenges to their abilities, skills and maturity, where self-perfection, austere self-discipline, sacrifice in the cause of duty and honorable service to society, community, family and friends are stressed.

It's like saying Ghost in the Shell created some overly specific sci-fi genre and being an anime is a prerequisite for being in the genre. Is a live action Ghost in the Shell then no longer apart of the genre because it's no longer anime? Is a live-action shonen no longer a shonen because it's no longer an anime? Shonen is a very specific kind of action comedy, that's all. You can make it in any other medium, you can make a radio show that's a shonen.

 

[Dreiko]

What does anime has genres even matter? So does any other style of animation too. I never said anime was a genre because it's not.

How are Kamen Rider, Power Rangers, Teen Titans, and Ninja Turtles not shonen based on the definition of shonen? The Mighty Ducks literally fits the definition.
Shonen manga is typically characterized by high-action, often humorous plots featuring male protagonists. Commonly-found themes in shonen manga include martial arts, robots, science fiction, sports, horror or mythological creatures. The camaraderie between boys or men on sports teams, fighting squads, and the like are often emphasized. Protagonists of such manga often feature an ongoing desire to better themselves, and often face challenges to their abilities, skills and maturity, where self-perfection, austere self-discipline, sacrifice in the cause of duty and honorable service to society, community, family and friends are stressed.

It's like saying Ghost in the Shell created some overly specific sci-fi genre and being an anime is a prerequisite for being in the genre. Is a live action Ghost in the Shell then no longer apart of the genre because it's no longer anime? Is a live-action shonen no longer a shonen because it's no longer an anime? Shonen is a very specific kind of action comedy, that's all. You can make it in any other medium, you can make a radio show that's a shonen.

You're using a technical definition that is using general terms due to concerns of brevity and are applying it over-broadly.


Ghost in the Shell is a seinen anime, the live action travesty was a scifi movie. DBZ is a shonen anime, the live action DB movie was an action movie. Simple.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

You're using a technical definition that is using general terms due to concerns of brevity and are applying it over-broadly.

Ghost in the Shell is a seinen anime, the live action travesty was a scifi movie. DBZ is a shonen anime, the live action DB movie was an action movie. Simple.

How dare I use the definition of a genre and apply it to things that fit the definition? I'm sure I can come up with a super specific and lengthy genre description for certain things that are probably only done in America and say I just created a new genre and medium too. Genres aren't created by what demographic they target like romantic comedies involve romance and comedy and has nothing to do with targeting female viewers. Just like a video game shooter can target young males like Call of Duty or it can target war buffs like ARMA, they're both shooters. Ghost is the Shell is sci-fi. I'm guessing there's at least a few live-action shonen because I know there's a ton of live-action anime now, most of it isn't American remakes like GitS or DBZ. It makes no sense that any genre is specific to a style of animation. I wouldn't be surprised there were shonen radio shows in Japan before TV like in America. It's like saying superhero comic books are some genre specific to comic books and kids animation shows, and then there's all these live action shows and movies about them and claiming that those shows aren't in the same genre for whatever reason.

 

[fOx]

I repeat: dismissal of any medium or genre, especially ones associated with other countries and cultures, is not okay. And saying "Oh, but I like -insert creator everyone knows here-" is not somehow proof of not being problematic.

There's nothing problematic about having refined taste in art, lad.

Also, considering The Road's protagonist just so happens to be pushing a cart around much like how Ogami pushes a baby carriage in Lone Wolf and Cub, yeah, I'm calling bs on McCarthy not taking inspiration from at least the famous film adaptations of the manga.

Actually, Lone Wolf and Cub is very clearly just stealing from True Grit, since it had an older person and a child travelling together. No one could have possibly imagined that without seeing True Grit first, just like nobody could have conceived of someone pushing a cart down the road without reading Lone Wolf and Cub. The concept is far too abstract for the american imagination to have thought of it. Just like stories about lone mysterious wanderers were clearly all directly inspired by Mark Twain's The Mysterious Stranger.

Lone Wolf and Cub is pretty much the ur-example regardless of the proto-examples that might have existed before it.

Ur- is literally just the german prefix for "proto." They're the same thing. Regardless, Lone Wold and Cub is neither the first, not the most well respected, piece of media to use the trope of a parent and child on a journey. Nor is it the ultimate story involving a person pushing carts or baby carriages.

The Classics alone were basically the Greek bards doing blockbusters about stuff like the Trojan Wars but putting in the gods because that makes it more fun. Heck, The Odyssey is basically a slapstick comedy sequel to The Illiad.

I'm not sure why you think that artistic fiction and popular fiction are mutually exclusive. I certainly don't think that. Shakespearean plays and Greek dramas were generally made for popular audiences. They also happened to be some of the best written art in human history. The same is not true for most anime, manga, JRPG's, ect. Also, The Odyssey is neither slapstick nor a comedy. By definition, Aristotle considered it a classical tragedy.

Also funny to bring up McCarthy in this thread because one of his key influences in his writings is Gnosticism. Another guy who based his work on that: Tetsuya Takahashi. The creator of Xenoblade.

The key influence on Paradise Lost was christianity. Another guy who based his work on that: Phil Vischer. The creator of Veggie Tales.

Annnndddd checkmate @fOx. This has been fun, but we've gotten way off topic.

 

[fOx]

As for JRPG's, if we're talking about who "saved" the medium, I would probably argue that Atlus deserves most of the credit. Persona 3, 4, and Catherine were probably the more influential titles released around that time. Persona 5 is basically a victory lap. While arguably not a "JRPG," I think Fromsoft deserves credit for reinvigorating the Japanese game environment as well. Demons Soul's, Dark Soul's, and Bloodborne have now shaped the entire industry.

 

[BrawlMan]

There's nothing problematic about having refined taste in art, lad.



Actually, Lone Wolf and Cub is very clearly just stealing from True Grit, since it had an older person and a child travelling together. No one could have possibly imagined that without seeing True Grit first, just like nobody could have conceived of someone pushing a cart down the road without reading Lone Wolf and Cub. The concept is far too abstract for the american imagination to have thought of it. Just like stories about lone mysterious wanderers were clearly all directly inspired by Mark Twain's The Mysterious Stranger.


Ur- is literally just the german prefix for "proto." They're the same thing. Regardless, Lone Wold and Cub is neither the first, not the most well respected, piece of media to use the trope of a parent and child on a journey. Nor is it the ultimate story involving a person pushing carts or baby carriages.


I'm not sure why you think that artistic fiction and popular fiction are mutually exclusive. I certainly don't think that. Shakespearean plays and Greek dramas were generally made for popular audiences. They also happened to be some of the best written art in human history. The same is not true for most anime, manga, JRPG's, ect. Also, The Odyssey is neither slapstick nor a comedy. By definition, Aristotle considered it a classical tragedy.



The key influence on Paradise Lost was christianity. Another guy who based his work on that: Phil Vischer. The creator of Veggie Tales.

Goddamn, I never laughed so hard in my life!

As for JRPG's, if we're talking about who "saved" the medium, I would probably argue that Atlus deserves most of the credit. Persona 3, 4, and Catherine were probably the more influential titles released around that time. Persona 5 is basically a victory lap. While arguably not a "JRPG," I think Fromsoft deserves credit for reinvigorating the Japanese game environment as well. Demons Soul's, Dark Soul's, and Bloodborne have now shaped the entire industry.

Excellent point. Not a Souls fan, but it is undeniable that From Software left a major influnce on the game industry for the past decade and continues to do so.

 

[BrawlMan]

Edit: @BrawlMan where's my "checkmate"?

Fine, you get a checkmate. While @fOx gets the ULTIMATE CHECKMATE!

 

[fOx]

Goddamn, I never laughed so hard in my life!



Excellent point. Not a Souls fan, but it is undeniable that From Software left a major influnce on the game industry for the past decade and continues to do so.

Looking back, the ps3/360 generation was probably the worst in terms of RPG's. But during that period, Atlus released Persona 4, Catherine, SMT 4, Apocalypse, Soul Hackers, Devil Survivor 1, Devil Survivor 2, Strange Journey, ect. I'm not sure I'd say they were blockbuster sellers, but it seems like half the 3ds library was Nintendo, and the other half was Atlus.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

There's nothing problematic about having refined taste in art, lad.

And the world is now just a cat playing with Australia...

Excellent point. Not a Souls fan, but it is undeniable that From Software left a major influnce on the game industry for the past decade and continues to do so.

And ICO influenced Souls. From Hidetaka Miyazaki on ICO, "That game awoke me to the possibilities of the medium."

Sony always wins, BABY!!!

 

[BrawlMan]

And ICO influenced Souls. From Hidetaka Miyazaki on ICO, "That game awoke me to the possibilities of the medium."

Sony always wins, BABY!!!

No, the gamers and From Software win despite the influences (though you make a valid point). Plus, Sony has screwed up and still screwed up in several areas. I'll save that topic for a private message or another topic.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

No, the gamers and From Software win despite the influences (though you make a valid point). Plus, Sony has screwed up and still screwed up in several areas. I'll save that topic for a private message or another topic.

Not only did Sony create ICO, they even funded the creation of the Souls franchise and genre (*shudders*). Gaming would be nowhere without Sony!!!

But seriously, it was mainly a joke. You can go down the line to what ICO was influenced by and then what that was influenced by and etc. Or if such and such wasn't around to influence, something else probably would've been the influence and triggered the figurative light bulb. Also, you can have 2 people creating a very similar work completely independently of each other and their influences.

 

[Yoshi]

lol

 

[Yoshi]

the end of Final Fantasy is here.

 

[fOx]

the end of Final Fantasy is here.
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so desu ne