108: Heart-wrenching Hentai
- Thread starter Leigh Alexander
- Start date
I believe the explanation for H-games having increasing amount of detail to story is a lot simpler than a refinement of gamer taste: it is the emotional attachment to sex. I know I pretty much called the sky blue, but hear me out.
I'm sure each and every one of us knows a person, or persons, be them friends or even ourselves, that say that they cannot have sex with a person they didn't love, or at least like. Fronts of "I'd hit anyone, anywhere, anytime" are pretty obvious. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that while one could have sex with another person regardless of social relation, that the ultimately more fulfilling sex would come from those that one knows and admires, covets, adores, seeks to protect, etc. As for the definition of "lust," I'd file that with encompassing the all-general feeling of sexual urge, neither positive nor negative in connotation.
With that in place, the end conclusion that not even social recluses can deny the allure of social contact, and H-game stories have been developing due to that.
Now, Kana: Little Sister.
Having not played it, I'm going to go the extra mile and give those who support it the benefit of the doubt that Kana has, at its core, a well-written story. Why then, is it important that the player have the option to have sex with Kana at all? This is really asking a lot, due to the incredible one-sidedness of their relationship even before factoring in the brother/sister angle. And as much as my above argument seems to already answer this question, it does not address specific relationships at all. Much in the same way I'd never have sex with my best friend, it's a similarly large leap of faith for me to do the same to my younger, dying sister. Seeing as how there's a lot of rumbling about sex on this thread already, this has to be an central issue that must be addressed.
Without a proper answer, I can't say that the developers had intent past "deep masturbatory aid" (and even then I'd say it just blends the archtypes of "dying person with nothing to lose" and "sister") towards developing Kana. What I'm also proposing that if this is the case, the lack of an option at all to have sex with Kana would have been the overall better choice.
I'm sure each and every one of us knows a person, or persons, be them friends or even ourselves, that say that they cannot have sex with a person they didn't love, or at least like. Fronts of "I'd hit anyone, anywhere, anytime" are pretty obvious. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that while one could have sex with another person regardless of social relation, that the ultimately more fulfilling sex would come from those that one knows and admires, covets, adores, seeks to protect, etc. As for the definition of "lust," I'd file that with encompassing the all-general feeling of sexual urge, neither positive nor negative in connotation.
With that in place, the end conclusion that not even social recluses can deny the allure of social contact, and H-game stories have been developing due to that.
Now, Kana: Little Sister.
Having not played it, I'm going to go the extra mile and give those who support it the benefit of the doubt that Kana has, at its core, a well-written story. Why then, is it important that the player have the option to have sex with Kana at all? This is really asking a lot, due to the incredible one-sidedness of their relationship even before factoring in the brother/sister angle. And as much as my above argument seems to already answer this question, it does not address specific relationships at all. Much in the same way I'd never have sex with my best friend, it's a similarly large leap of faith for me to do the same to my younger, dying sister. Seeing as how there's a lot of rumbling about sex on this thread already, this has to be an central issue that must be addressed.
Without a proper answer, I can't say that the developers had intent past "deep masturbatory aid" (and even then I'd say it just blends the archtypes of "dying person with nothing to lose" and "sister") towards developing Kana. What I'm also proposing that if this is the case, the lack of an option at all to have sex with Kana would have been the overall better choice.
People need to go read "Time enough for love" that book really throws a monkey wrench into one's ideas about incest and age differences. The only real reason the incest taboo exists is because of the increase in genetic anomalies such relationships create. Outside of prepubescent children age difference probably has more to do with the fact that individuals will end up dying long before their partners do. What happens when people are able to live for hundreds or even thousands of years, or even a theoretically indefinite period of time? As another poster said what happens when you can engineer out any and all genetic defects given the proper tools?
I suppose that we will be divided into a few groups: one believes in steadfastly holding onto ancient beliefs arbitrarily, another is going to be *too* liberal with their new *freedom*, yet another group will hold to old beliefs to a degree, another will be kind of liberal with the freedom to choose, and the last will be able to consider all options before making an intelligent decision.
Hang on a second, I just named off how people are in the world anyways...
Hang on a second, I just named off how people are in the world anyways...
Whoops! Wrong thread. I thought this had something to do with the article about H-games, but it appears to be the Dr Efftee Show, instead.
Seriously, though, Efftee seems to be confusing instinctive revulsion with disgust, which is a learned trait. There is no instinct preventing inbreeding amongst animals, any more than there's an instinct against homosexual behaviours. In fact, both are quite common in the wild, especially amongst hominids.
Seriously, though, Efftee seems to be confusing instinctive revulsion with disgust, which is a learned trait. There is no instinct preventing inbreeding amongst animals, any more than there's an instinct against homosexual behaviours. In fact, both are quite common in the wild, especially amongst hominids.
I agree with pretty much everything you said, but I'd like to point out that this bit here - that the "reasons for disgust seem obvious to him" - is exactly what I was trying to say. Yes, I'm uncomfortable with the situation he used as an example; hell, who in their right mind wouldn't be? But drawing more attention to the feelings of revulsion raised in ourselves, over the potential of human rights abuse, is putting far too much weight on arbitrary matters. Surely you agree that if we were to go around assuming that other people will know what we mean if we only provide half the argument, then we'd never get anywhere?V.Sixenth said:
Going back and warping what Yahtzee said some for his Resident Evil 5 spiel, I'd say that in the same respect this game requires doing something you find distasteful or unnerving (i.e.- your younger sister is dying and growing much closer than a normal relationship is, what are you going to do about it?), and does have some artistic (or otherwise) value there. Sure, we all know that incest is socially wrong, and the fact that she's dying isn't helping things, but if you are so quick to deny your DYING YOUNGER SISTER (in words of FT slightly warped) a lot of things to the degree that you would be like, "RAR! WRONG, NO WAY IN HELL! GRRRR!" then you are just flat out [something along the lines of something insulting, but I'm not going to risk further possibiltiy of a ban hammer. Too bad these types of issues tend themselves toward something like that when it gets to people fighting from extreme ends]. Basically I'm saying that in that kind of situation, you can't be too quick to judge anything.
I'm not going to get into this argument. Suffice it to say that I take my hat off in support of LordOmnit and Eolirin ^^
- Haha, I knew you'd laugh at that ^^LordOmnit said:
My girlfriend just put a question to me before, asking what the real difference is between Incest and a Twin sister fantasy? I mean, you're having sex with 2 sisters and they're (more than likely) going to be physical with each other too. That'd be Incest for them. Is it the fear of genetic repercussion, like pregnancy?
I've been a Anime and Manga fan for years now, and have played a fair few H-games myself, and stuff like Incest pops up very often. Granted, it's not usually a huge point in the story (normally a side quest, if you will) but it is there. I can't speak for everyone but I myself have kinda switched off to the positions of the characters in games and usually just think of it as a guy and a girl having sex.
What I'd be more inclined to be worried about is Guro. Wikisearch if you need to, although I'd rather you didn't for your own sanity.
Oh, of course I'm going to search for it now.
---Searching---
Ick. I've heard of that kind of thing before, just more EXTREME S&M. Good thing there weren't any examples.
And yes, guro would much more of a concern than something that has overall positive representation of some taboo (at least as far as I can tell). Really the idea that it would be brother and sister or sister and sister and dude or whatever the case may be is most often used as shock value or for titulation of it being some kind of taboo-breaking thing. But as far as I can tell, Kana seems to be using it for artistic/philisophical/moralistic value, in the debate as to how right it is for you to grant your dying sister's wishes (I think that we can ignore the added on, "Psyche, she wasn't really related to you after all,").
Now if the question is about between incest and the idea of having something go on with you AND twin sisters, it's a little different in the first and latter case. Incest would mean you are related to said person(s) you are engaging in sexual acts with, and the twin sister fantasy is the idea of being with two girls, and I'd think that that case would be more readily acceptable than the former, just because of the idea that it isn't centered around them with each other, more as them with you. Granted, it is most likely that they will be getting physical with each other too, but that's just the nature of group sex (i.e.- more than two people, since that could easily get misinterpreted, I wanted to clarify there). As for repurcussions, I can't really say, because in real life that is a serious thing to consider, whereas in any ero-(media), it would be either ignored or purposefully used as far as I'd guess. It also seems as though they deal with it in a less-than-realistic way from the standpoint of an average guess as to how it would happen. I agree with FT in that frequently if it goes beyond child sexual exploration, that it would often be exploitative (my friend knows this fact quite personally, but that case was even a little more different), but from the occasional case of purposeful and happy incest, I'd say that even then it would be a serious strain on at least one party who isn't sure so much as the other. And that is because every time something about taboos was brought up, it would be maginfied in their perception, and create a great deal of stress, rather than be this somewhat-stressful-at-the-moment kind of thing. The parties engaging in the acts would be worried, and then they'd either have to continue to go to more and more extremes to keep it secret, or they'd have to move to France.
Where was I going with this...?
Okay, so that switching it off to guy and girl having sex vs. incest thing is also a personal perception thing. You are seeing it as something not necessarily good, but not at the same time bad. Now, if it was something like rape or exploitation, then that is an insinctual "bad" case, which is what you would then view it as (I'm assuming). But if it is so demanding in someone's mind about it being incest and therefore wrong, they aren't getting the message that it isn't supposed to be easy for those kinds of things to happen (look at the series Boku wa Imouto ni Koi wo Suru, that's some damned strain there). Frequently, I'd say, it tends to focus more on the acts of hiding at incest, rather than the strain associated with it, based on the outside world's perceptions.
Okay, I realize I have thrown myself off the cliff of topic somewhere in there, so I'll stop there and just ask me any for any of my other opinions if you want, I'll try to be more direct if I can.
---Searching---
Ick. I've heard of that kind of thing before, just more EXTREME S&M. Good thing there weren't any examples.
And yes, guro would much more of a concern than something that has overall positive representation of some taboo (at least as far as I can tell). Really the idea that it would be brother and sister or sister and sister and dude or whatever the case may be is most often used as shock value or for titulation of it being some kind of taboo-breaking thing. But as far as I can tell, Kana seems to be using it for artistic/philisophical/moralistic value, in the debate as to how right it is for you to grant your dying sister's wishes (I think that we can ignore the added on, "Psyche, she wasn't really related to you after all,").
Now if the question is about between incest and the idea of having something go on with you AND twin sisters, it's a little different in the first and latter case. Incest would mean you are related to said person(s) you are engaging in sexual acts with, and the twin sister fantasy is the idea of being with two girls, and I'd think that that case would be more readily acceptable than the former, just because of the idea that it isn't centered around them with each other, more as them with you. Granted, it is most likely that they will be getting physical with each other too, but that's just the nature of group sex (i.e.- more than two people, since that could easily get misinterpreted, I wanted to clarify there). As for repurcussions, I can't really say, because in real life that is a serious thing to consider, whereas in any ero-(media), it would be either ignored or purposefully used as far as I'd guess. It also seems as though they deal with it in a less-than-realistic way from the standpoint of an average guess as to how it would happen. I agree with FT in that frequently if it goes beyond child sexual exploration, that it would often be exploitative (my friend knows this fact quite personally, but that case was even a little more different), but from the occasional case of purposeful and happy incest, I'd say that even then it would be a serious strain on at least one party who isn't sure so much as the other. And that is because every time something about taboos was brought up, it would be maginfied in their perception, and create a great deal of stress, rather than be this somewhat-stressful-at-the-moment kind of thing. The parties engaging in the acts would be worried, and then they'd either have to continue to go to more and more extremes to keep it secret, or they'd have to move to France.
Where was I going with this...?
Okay, so that switching it off to guy and girl having sex vs. incest thing is also a personal perception thing. You are seeing it as something not necessarily good, but not at the same time bad. Now, if it was something like rape or exploitation, then that is an insinctual "bad" case, which is what you would then view it as (I'm assuming). But if it is so demanding in someone's mind about it being incest and therefore wrong, they aren't getting the message that it isn't supposed to be easy for those kinds of things to happen (look at the series Boku wa Imouto ni Koi wo Suru, that's some damned strain there). Frequently, I'd say, it tends to focus more on the acts of hiding at incest, rather than the strain associated with it, based on the outside world's perceptions.
Okay, I realize I have thrown myself off the cliff of topic somewhere in there, so I'll stop there and just ask me any for any of my other opinions if you want, I'll try to be more direct if I can.
The article and this thread have been a very interesting read, even though I started skimming through the posts about halfway down page 2, but I felt like adding my thoughts and ended up registering to do it.
It's difficult to find the words to explain my thoughts. Let me start by saying that I've come to realize that I can't believe everything people tell me about right and wrong blindly. In our society, you're only taught about right and wrong and not everyone gets to develop their own ideas. No one can draw the line between right and wrong. Personally the only thing I consider truly wrong is one person consciously harming others in some way, not caring about the consequences of their actions. I'm still guilty of it, I don't think there's anyone that isn't, we're only human.
What I'm getting at here is that despite the idea of incest being wrong or grotesque, depending on the context of the situation, it may not be all that bad. Certainly not evil, but at the same time harmful in a way. I'm trying hard not to contradict myself but like I said, the line is hazy, as it is with all things.
I haven't played this game or any other H-Game (though I am going to try this game after reading the article). I think the events in the story just reinforces the bond between the characters to extremes. Emotion is a powerful thing and can result in anything. If two people, regardless of the situation, need to do something to express their feelings for one another, then they can go ahead and do it. For me, it only requires that it doesn't harm others.
Not that I condone these acts, most of the time, these situations in the real world are certainly not acceptable, but that's only due to the context of the situation. Someone is being taken advantage of which means the other is harming someone. In these situations it isn't some tragic love story born from the works of Shakespeare, just something horribly sick.
My main point is that anyone can have their own beliefs in what right and wrong is (without causing harm) but at the same time have no right deciding what's right and wrong for others (again, without causing harm blahablahablahblhablah i'msofreakinrighteous)
Two people could take turn shitting on each other and I wouldn't really care, as long as they did it in the privacy of their homes and not forcing me or people I care about to witness it. The only people who end up witnessing it actually want to see it and so if you want to see incest in this game, you can, and by all means, go for it. I'm probably going to skip around it unless this thing sucks me in like it did the author of the article. If it's wrong for you, that's ok. If it's right for you, that is also ok.
Rip apart my post please, I'm no good at this sort of thing and all criticism is welcome. I can at least understand that being proved wrong is just another form of growth.
Well, that was a fun first post, off I go! *rides off into the sunset*
It's difficult to find the words to explain my thoughts. Let me start by saying that I've come to realize that I can't believe everything people tell me about right and wrong blindly. In our society, you're only taught about right and wrong and not everyone gets to develop their own ideas. No one can draw the line between right and wrong. Personally the only thing I consider truly wrong is one person consciously harming others in some way, not caring about the consequences of their actions. I'm still guilty of it, I don't think there's anyone that isn't, we're only human.
What I'm getting at here is that despite the idea of incest being wrong or grotesque, depending on the context of the situation, it may not be all that bad. Certainly not evil, but at the same time harmful in a way. I'm trying hard not to contradict myself but like I said, the line is hazy, as it is with all things.
I haven't played this game or any other H-Game (though I am going to try this game after reading the article). I think the events in the story just reinforces the bond between the characters to extremes. Emotion is a powerful thing and can result in anything. If two people, regardless of the situation, need to do something to express their feelings for one another, then they can go ahead and do it. For me, it only requires that it doesn't harm others.
Not that I condone these acts, most of the time, these situations in the real world are certainly not acceptable, but that's only due to the context of the situation. Someone is being taken advantage of which means the other is harming someone. In these situations it isn't some tragic love story born from the works of Shakespeare, just something horribly sick.
My main point is that anyone can have their own beliefs in what right and wrong is (without causing harm) but at the same time have no right deciding what's right and wrong for others (again, without causing harm blahablahablahblhablah i'msofreakinrighteous)
Two people could take turn shitting on each other and I wouldn't really care, as long as they did it in the privacy of their homes and not forcing me or people I care about to witness it. The only people who end up witnessing it actually want to see it and so if you want to see incest in this game, you can, and by all means, go for it. I'm probably going to skip around it unless this thing sucks me in like it did the author of the article. If it's wrong for you, that's ok. If it's right for you, that is also ok.
Rip apart my post please, I'm no good at this sort of thing and all criticism is welcome. I can at least understand that being proved wrong is just another form of growth.
Well, that was a fun first post, off I go! *rides off into the sunset*
That was a great first post Demeth,
You eloquently summarize my personal views on this matter, and many other that I've defended. I don't recommend defending pedophilia in person at work though, made that mistake and needless to say, explaining that I personally have no issue with anything someone else does so long as it's not harming anyone isn't an easy thing for some to accept. For some, wrong is wrong, and there isn't a gray area.
You eloquently summarize my personal views on this matter, and many other that I've defended. I don't recommend defending pedophilia in person at work though, made that mistake and needless to say, explaining that I personally have no issue with anything someone else does so long as it's not harming anyone isn't an easy thing for some to accept. For some, wrong is wrong, and there isn't a gray area.
Thank you Demeth.
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I think that that is the best way to put it.
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If I didn't have something to note on, then I'd say that anyone commenting after that was raving mad, but I don't want to say that I'm raving mad.
---Getting to the point...---
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I think that that is the best way to put it.
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If I didn't have something to note on, then I'd say that anyone commenting after that was raving mad, but I don't want to say that I'm raving mad.
---Getting to the point...---
Exactly, and in that sense we have to remember that games, books, TV, etc. that tell some kind of story are always individual cases, rather than generic examples (some of the time they are purposefully generic examples, but then they tend to be some kind of commentary aimed at a different kind of discussion than this). They aren't saying that this happens all the time, everywhere, and, indeed, the case may be that most of the time this kind of thing doesn't happen, but, again, it is a story about an individual case.Demeth said:
For an equal moral/relativist middleground, couldn't you state that 'as a general rule, incest is wrong, but there are cases where it isn't"?
Then again, I'm all for relativism (borderline nihilistic, I suppose) when it comes to moral cases so I probably don't have a soul
Then again, I'm all for relativism (borderline nihilistic, I suppose) when it comes to moral cases so I probably don't have a soul
I hope you aren't talking about my early on arguments, because I was just trying to forage a sort of middleground myself, rather than just out and out arguing with FT, but considering where this discussion has gone, I think that we all don't have souls =(
And if you weren't sorry for being egotistical =)
And if you weren't sorry for being egotistical =)
Whoa, this thread sure blew up!
I just wanted to tell you guys that this kind of discussion around something I wrote is exactly what I was hoping for, and I wanted to thank everyone for thinking critically and passionately about the subject matter.
Be nice!
I just wanted to tell you guys that this kind of discussion around something I wrote is exactly what I was hoping for, and I wanted to thank everyone for thinking critically and passionately about the subject matter.
Be nice!