15-year old Stabs Bully 11 Times at Bus Stop, Gets Away With It

[Dastardly]

snip

All good information. Thanks!

Only tangentially related, this is why I've said that knives make bad self-defense weapons. I don't blame this kid for using one, because I wouldn't expect him to have researched this stuff heavily... but as people consider the future, knives are awful as anything but tools.

1. You have to get too close to use it. In defense, your goal is to get away, not get closer. Knives force you into a worse situation. A good self-defense weapon should help you maintain distance.

2. They're small and tricky to grip, so they can too easily be taken away (even by sheer luck). And, because of #1, when they're taken away, the person taking it already has you within striking distance. A good self-defense weapon should not be easily turned on you.

3. Stabs have to be placed in pretty specific places to get immediate results (ie, stop an assailant). Slashes are more of a deterrent, but require you to be very close to actually land one with enough pressure to cause pain (see #1). A good self-defense weapon needs to provide immediate results.

One of the best? A sturdy cane. Its length allows you to maintain a perimeter around you, and that in turn makes it harder for the attacker to get in close enough to steal and use it. The shock of blunt force will do more to momentarily stop someone -- it can even get them off-balance and on the ground -- allowing you to escape.

Handguns are also a special case. They're nearly useless once you're in too close. They serve the purpose of preventing that, but can't do much about it. As far as self-defense weapons goes, I think nearly no one should ever have to use the gun... but I believe they should be able to own it. The self-defense value of a handgun is, generally speaking, simply being there. Most attackers will not risk it. And if they're backed up and/or on the retreat, there's no need to fire.

 

[Insanity72]

"No this is something they teach you in self defense classes."

Huh. wasn't aware they taught self-defense in school these days.

It's usually not an in class thing but an after school event.

Did you not read the article? The first blow was a punch to the back of the head, and by your own admission, that would cause him to not think properly, rendering him incapable of making the decision to only target non-vital areas, right?

Saavedra attempted to get away once

^This, he got punched, then ran, would have had enough time to collect his thoughts then proceeded to stab him.

 

[Codeknight]

Not self defense, as I doubt the guy was still standing and an active threat somewhere halfway. Neither do I subscribe to the silly American logic that you can just kill anyone who gets in your way. Besides, he brought along a knife with the explicit and only motive of committing murder upon that bully. It was pre-meditated.

You make a very good point with that first bit, I seriously doubt he was still a threat after the first few stabs, 11 was way too many. However the your idea that Amercians "can just kill anyone who gets in your way" is extremely flawed. Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law states:

In any other place where a person ?has a right to be,? that person has ?no duty to retreat? if attacked and may ?meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.?

Also, bringing a knife to school does not make it pre-meditated, it's an increadibly risky move that could have gotten him in a ton of trouble, but it could have easily been something to defend himself if the need arises... which it certainly did. The kid tried to get off the bus to avoid the fight when he was punched in the back by the attacker who had multiple other students following him. Whether they where there backing him or just to watch is unclear, but the point is he was attacked and, moral or not, was entirely within the law to defend himself with lethal force.

 

[Burntpopcarn]

Fighting back: good.
Defeating the bully: good.
Wounding him: good.
Killing him: BAD.

 

[thenoblitt]

Yeah the kid had been bullied for years so of course he is going to do something like carry a knife, you also forgot to state how he got off the bus early so he this wouldnt happen, and how the bully chased him off the bus then continued to chase him in the woods, now if i had a knife and i tried avoiding you and you started chasing me through the woods i would stab you too, and if you look at cases there is no 4-5 stabs it is always 1-2 or 10-20, because you either stab once and run, or keep stabbing till the threat is no longer a threat, which by the way is what they teach you in gun self defense classes

 

[Substitute Troll]

Acceptable overreaction, carry on.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

Besides, he brought along a knife with the explicit and only motive of committing murder upon that bully. It was pre-meditated.

Ignoring the other shakier parts of your post. I take offense to this one, bringing a knife does not instantly equate to pre-meditated murder.

 

[Bento Box]

There's so much ado in this thread about the number of stabbings, as if one or two would have been likely to yield a different result.

Look:

A savage attack is not the long, drawn out affair you see in movies, where the camera jerks around a lot, then stands still for at least a second or two after each horrifying wound is administered. It is a frantic, panicked barrage, with your body beating down the threat as rapidly as it can. A dozen stab wounds could be put down in as short a time as five seconds or less, depending on all kinds of sciencey stuff like the kind of tissue being cut, the amount of resistance, and the strength of the attacker.

The kid made it clear -- by avoiding his attacker (I say 'atacker' because, let's remember, the bully instigated) -- that he wanted to avoid his attacker. When that didn't work, he panicked and lashed out.

There's also much ado about the kid having a knife in the first place, and I have to disagree with that, too. Eventually the situation was going to come to a head, and while you can call me a violent, ignorant, arrogant, savage American all you like, I think that kid had the right and responsibility to defend himself. If he hadn't, and as a result, the defenseless kid had received a curb-stomping and several broken bones, half of you would be saying that the bully deserved to be stabbed to death.

Finally, I have a hard time disagreeing with the findings when the judge, the defense, and the prosecution all agreed that the kid was as close to being in the right as he could have been.

 

[Siege_TF]

In regards to bullying I've always been a fan of target hardening, because I realized a long time ago kids always have been, and always will be little sacs of shit, so the alternative is someone getting stabbed. That's why schools have a wait-and-see approach to bullying; kids will always be kids, and it's only a matter of time until this wave graduates (or commits the odd suicide, murder, murder/suicide) and then the next wave of shit will come rolling in, sure as the tide, and it doesn't matter what happened to the last wave, this wave will be as fresh as a field in March (meaning roll up your windows, because that fertilizer reeks).

 

[jboking]

"No this is something they teach you in self defense classes."

Huh. wasn't aware they taught self-defense in school these days.

It's usually not an in class thing but an after school event.

So after getting the shit beat out of him and potentially being fatally wounded himself, he should have gone and got self defense classes? He should have just accepted what looked like it would be a brutal beating? Wonderful.

Did you not read the article? The first blow was a punch to the back of the head, and by your own admission, that would cause him to not think properly, rendering him incapable of making the decision to only target non-vital areas, right?

Saavedra attempted to get away once

^This, he got punched, then ran, would have had enough time to collect his thoughts then proceeded to stab him.

So, he doesn't have self defense classes, but he would totally know, while being terrified, where the vitals were and how to avoid them?

Bullshit.

 

[EtherealBeaver]

I understand the kid. If I hadn't been as frail when I was a kid (which I was due to excessive amounts of bullying) I could easily have stabbed a few people myself and to this day I think they would have deserved it. Bullies ruin lives - I have been through 12 years of depression because of such people and I am only now recovering.

My school was pretty insane though. Alcoholic principal, violent teachers, students bringing knives and guns to school, an apple with a razor blade inside for the new teacher, people getting tied on hands and feet and left hanging on the jacket hooks (or whatever they are called) after school, only to be found by the cleaning lady a few hours later - and that is just a few cases compared to what actually happened.

I imagine the kid was bullied quite a bit as well and, while it is probably bad for him that he god bullied, the bully got pretty much what he deserved for his actions. If it was his fault or nor, I cannot say - it is probably deeper than that since it is often shit from home which makes kids into bullies, but in that case, the judge should have that investigated and charges filed against the parents for being such complete failures.

 

[EtherealBeaver]

"No this is something they teach you in self defense classes."

Huh. wasn't aware they taught self-defense in school these days.

It's usually not an in class thing but an after school event.

So after getting the shit beat out of him and potentially being fatally wounded himself, he should have gone and got self defense classes? He should have just accepted what looked like it would be a brutal beating? Wonderful.

Did you not read the article? The first blow was a punch to the back of the head, and by your own admission, that would cause him to not think properly, rendering him incapable of making the decision to only target non-vital areas, right?

Saavedra attempted to get away once

^This, he got punched, then ran, would have had enough time to collect his thoughts then proceeded to stab him.

So, he doesn't have self defense classes, but he would totally know, while being terrified, where the vitals were and how to avoid them?

Bullshit.

^This. As mentioned above, I have tried quite a few things. 6 people outright assaulting me for the hell of it in the class room for instance. I have no idea what happened but apparently I just lost it and did some pretty hefty stuff against a few of them but I have no recollection of it at all. When you get assaulted you go into Fight or Flee mode and this kid entered Fight mode as it seems.

Then again, unless you have actually been in a fight where you honestly thought you were going to die, you would never understand it because it just can't be rationalized and results of actions are not considered more than "If I do X then I have a better chance of survival".

 

[Kadoodle]

Good for him. This is the same damn thing as the Zangief kid thing, except the bully dies in the end.

He did it in self defense. His bully followed and assaulted him violently. He tried to run away. He was followed. Was he supposed to just let himself be abused in a manner that could kill him?

As someone who has been bullied throughout his life, I can safely say that bullies don't back down, especially the ones who harm you physically. And if you fight back and they live to tell the tale, then they will likely come back and kill or seriously injure you, because they hate nothing more than when the victim fights back and their authority is compromised.

I think 11 stabs is justified. However many it takes to put the fucker down. You wouldn't hesitate to use lethal force if the bully was, say, a crazed German Shepard, would you? That's what bullies who physically abuse are. Crazed animals. You protect yourself, and make sure the crazed animal never has a chance to bite you again.

 

[sqrlaway]

We're debating a case that we know nothing about past a sketched summary and the result. The judge who decided this probably sat through a significant amount of evidence, and, based on that, unilaterally sided with the kid, relying on years and years of legal expertise and presiding over or trying cases like this. That's good enough for me, regardless of how many stabs an internet champ thinks is necessary to protect oneself.

 

[MorganL4]

I have mixed emotions on this story.

Firstly i believe that the kid had a right to defend himself, every kid does, but was stabbing him 11 times necessary. I'm sure once would have been enough.

Second, why a knife, couldn't he have just battered him for a bit with a bat or something? It doesn't make sense why he would carry a knife as stab as many times as he did.

Should he get away with it? No, but he shouldn't be prosecuted as a murderer, maybe given a less harsh punishment. Seems only fair.

EDIT: whoa! My inbox got flooded with messages about the bat thing. It's just an example as to say "Why was he carrying a knife to begin with?"

For starters, you cannot carry a baseball bat around with you wherever you go as a self defense tool it is not practical.

Second, If someone attacks you after you have actively tried to avoid a physical confrontation, your concern is not going to be "how many stabs would be considered just in this situation", it is "How do I get out of this situation alive?" Thus the adrenaline kicks in couple that with anger and fear and you have a very clear temporary insanity claim.

Because the number of people on this planet capable of keeping a clear head when they are being assaulted is quite small.

 

[shrimpcel]

I do not understand why people obsess over the fact that the kid stabbed the other kid *eleven* times. You can die from one stab, just like you can survive twenty stabs (if they're directed at non-vital areas, if the cuts are not deep, etc). In the heat of a fight, there is no difference between two hits and twenty, it all happens really fast. I support the Saavedra kid, he was right to act in the way he did.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

He made the decision to carry a lethal weapon with the intent of using it against someone. There's your calm planning of the later murder that makes it pre-meditated.

Under Floridian law, his pocket knife is a 'common pocketknife', which does not equate to a lethal weapon. Also, fun fact: He tried to escape from that situation. Were it "pre-meditated", he wouldn't have.

As for taking offense: bite me. I don't subscribe to the ideas of pro-violence, weapon use and legalised murder, period.

Not to be rude, but didn't you admit you were a soldier? And that you shot and killed 2 people in a previous thread? That's legalized murder, isn't it?

And there's no need to be rude, my friend. We can carry on a conversation as civil adults.

 

[Rottweiler]

He made the decision to carry a lethal weapon with the intent of using it against someone. There's your calm planning of the later murder that makes it pre-meditated.

Tool. A Pocket Knife is not generally recognized by Law as a 'weapon' (except in the UK, it seems). I guess we should be thankful he didn't bring a Multitool- that has a *saw blade* attachment, and with your logic that would indicate premeditated *torture* because, as we all know, a saw blade has no purpose but to torture people to death.

And you have yet to show anything to back your claim. Bringing a Knife is *only* a 'plan to murder' when the INTENT is to use the Knife to kill. Don't say 'oh a knife can only kill' because that's scientifically incorrect, bobo.

Man, you love to tie together supposition plus arrogant assumption into one big biased clump in favor of your own viewpoint, don't you?

As for taking offense: bite me. I don't subscribe to the ideas of pro-violence, weapon use and legalised murder, period.

And I don't subscribe to the arrogant assignment of 'murder' in every situation where a person kills another person...and neither does the Law of almost any country I know of.

Good thing you know better, and can lead us all to the light.

And the funny thing- you haven't once shown any sign of blaming the Bully. Which I guess means you *are* pro-violence...as long as the attacker gets all the assistance and sympathy, eh?

Not true, it's something that's taught, not born in. It's something I learned during various training that kicks in during such situations. Kickboxing, krav maga, security guard certification, various situations I was involved in in when I was still a kid and later on professionally.

And? What possible bearing does your fortune in being able to afford/find self-defense training have on this case, which the victim (Saavedra, since you seem confused on this) did not have?

That's exactly why weapon possesion and use must at all times be forbidden. The worst possible combination is people with lethal weapons but without the sense to use them. And like you pointed out correctly: very few people have that sense. Perhaps even none at all have it.

I live in Alaska. I travel to the wilderness on many occasions. Would you then suggest that perhaps I use Krov Maga against a Kodiak bear who seeks my demise? Perhaps I should use learned discussion to suggest to the bear that he instead become a vegetarian?

You seem to be in the camp wherein it is preferable for the Majority to be Victims in order to protect the Minority of Criminals, on shaky 'moral' grounds based on the exceptions, not the rule. And that's a sad thing. That very attitude is what has made so many people into victims of violent crime, because people like you preach that they should do *anything*- including accept being brutally assaulted- instead of risk harming another person.

I've seen the results of that for 20 years. It's proven not to work.

 

[Sansha]

I have no sympathy for the bully, and commend the judge on her ruling. Fuck bullies.

In the state of Florida, you can legally attack and kill somebody who is threatening you with physical harm. I'd say the kid's actions were justified, given his multiple attempts to get away without a fight, and only responded with force when pushed past the limit.

Here's a world-breaking idea: don't bully people. I really don't know why bullying is still a problem in society. Authority figures like teachers and parents are still too lazy to do anything about it, I 'spose.

I guess bullies around that area and indeed the state will think about getting shanked in the fucking heart before flexing their superiority issues.